Pathfinder 14 was printed before the Pathfinder System itself. It's a 3.5 module.
That being said, was Pathfinder #14 printed before or after the Golarion Campaign Setting book?
That doesn't answer my question. I asked if it was printed prior to the Pathfinder CAMPAIGN SETTING BOOK, which itself is a v3.5 product.
NOW THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.
WHY NOT USE ONE OF THE INTERPLANETARY PORTALS INSTEAD? GIVES THE GM A BETTER CHANCE OF "PREDICTING" WHERE YOU SHOW UP ON THE PLANET, TOO!
WHY ARE WE SHOUTING? THIS IS STUPID!
We're all sitting right there.
And if someone can't read the small print, modern browsers have zoom. Try Ctrl+Mousewheel.
That's not the problem. The problem is that I never got that far to begin with. And now I probably never will. We are very strict with rules in our group (despite what people on these forums believe) and the moment one of my GMs hear about this new spell, that's it.
"My GM doesn't play the way I like. I'll just flip out and shout at the publisher."
Do you hit your gerbil when your boss gives you a bad review, too? You seriously need to get behind that cause and effect thing that seems to be big in our 'verse.
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That being said, was Pathfinder #14 printed before or after the Golarion Campaign Setting book? If it came after, than it WAS a change to the rules. The Campaign Setting book includes rather detailed info on other planets and the civilizations therein (at least a paragraph per planet).
They were both published in 2008 I believe; I’m not sure which one was published first.
Whichever way it was, this does not constitute a rules change; the campaign setting book makes no mention of teleporting to other planets either way. PF 14 simply had more information on the subject.
You can argue that there has been a rules change – by introducing Interplanetary Teleport in PF 14 it implied that Greater Teleport no longer worked as written. The Campaign Setting book is however irrelevant to the argument. The rules change becomes a Golarion campaign specific rule verses a PFRPG core rule.
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Ever since I read the descriptions of those planets in the Campaign Book I've had my heart set to playing in a Golarion Pathfinder game that would get high enough level for me to travel to those places and enjoy some new, unique experiences from my GMs imagination (and maybe build a base of operations there, or hide a phylactery or something).
NOW THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.
Sure it can. Since you state in the paragraph above that your GM has an imagination, I’m sure he / she can figure out a way to introduce interplanetary adventure despite a slavish adherence to RAW (and campaign RAW over core RAW at that).
People in this thread have already suggested scrolls of Interplanetary Teleport, or interplanetary portals (and we know that these exist by campaign RAW). Other ideas include discovering a still functioning space craft, hitching a ride (with difficulty of course) on the back of a shantak, or even playing an adventure (be it a one off or part of a whole campaign) that is set on one of the other planet’s in Golarion’s system, thereby sidestepping the travel issue.
Come on. Use your imagination! Encourage your GM to use theirs! Don’t be restricted by a ‘rules change’ even if you feel you must use it. Paizo is actually providing you the tools to help your imagination along, not stopping you from having fun.
And although this may fall on deaf ears, if you feel that a ‘rule’ is restricting your fun, then don’t use. Encourage your GM to follow the same thinking. There’s really not much point in playing a game that is not fun, is there?
And honestly... I'm actually quite pleased that folks are this interested in other planets. Means that us perhaps doing a planetary book some day in the future is more likely to happen, since it seems that there's lots of interest in the topic.I'm curious if the Gate spell would be sufficient to link to Prime Material campaign worlds?
Not at all. Gate only works between two different planes.
Unless you're talking about alternate Prime Material Planes, where each plane represents a different campaign world?
(The use of "world" here is ambiguous - I can't tell if you mean "campaign setting" or "planet.")
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Regardless of what anyone thinks about Ravingdorks play style, personality, or group I do think he has a valid point that the designers should pay attention to.
And that is: the introduction of a new spell should not remove functionality from an existing spell. Before Interplanetary Teleport existed (in Golarian for those that are splitting hairs) Greater Teleport had no range limit. Now Interplanetary Teleport has introduced a range limit to Greater Teleport and (conveniently) offers itself up as a solution. I don't think this is great spell design.
And just to be clear (before the personal attacks begin) I don't personally care about this issue but I do feel it is a valid point.
I believe that the crux of the problem lies elsewhere.
D&D settings (in particular, the "default" settings) were always written with one celestial body in mind, and with an assumption that the "great beyond" is limited to the Planes.
Paizo kinda threw that upside down by publishing the first major D&D setting that actually deals with the rest of solar system and whatever dwells there.
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All of WOTC's major settings, Oerth, the Realms, and Dragonlance were set up as solar systems with planetary bodies. They were fleshed out in a fair amount of detail in Spelljammer supplements.Regardless of what anyone thinks about Ravingdorks play style, personality, or group I do think he has a valid point that the designers should pay attention to.
And that is: the introduction of a new spell should not remove functionality from an existing spell. Before Interplanetary Teleport existed (in Golarian for those that are splitting hairs) Greater Teleport had no range limit. Now Interplanetary Teleport has introduced a range limit to Greater Teleport and (conveniently) offers itself up as a solution. I don't think this is great spell design.
And just to be clear (before the personal attacks begin) I don't personally care about this issue but I do feel it is a valid point.
I believe that the crux of the problem lies elsewhere.
D&D settings (in particular, the "default" settings) were always written with one celestial body in mind, and with an assumption that the "great beyond" is limited to the Planes.
Paizo kinda threw that upside down by publishing the first major D&D setting that actually deals with the rest of solar system and whatever dwells there.
Which is out of print and not supported since... ? :)
Unless you're talking about alternate Prime Material Planes, where each plane represents a different campaign world?
This is exactly what I mean.
Which is out of print and not supported since... ? :)
Which makes his point any less valid how... ? :)
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By the same reasoning Interplanetary Teleport and the material provided in Pathfinder 14 aren't part of the official rules set either, they're supplementary setting material.That the rules for interplanetary travel and whatanot never were a part of the official 3.5 ruleset. Unless you can point me to relevant passages in the SRD. Hint: planar rules were in.Which is out of print and not supported since... ? :)Which makes his point any less valid how... ? :)
And isn't that the point? PF core greater teleport allows you for interplanetary travel, PF CS one doesn't.
RD has his usual problem of being so shackled to RAW that he won't even houserule anything, so he wants the RAW to be changed to conform with his ideas.
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I just want to say, thanks for putting an interplanetary teleportation spell in the new setting book. I follow similar guidelines to Ars Magica (no spells can affect anything outside of the lunar sphere on the same plane), so now we have a way around that. This was a major hole in the rules that needed to be fixed.
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I just want to say, thanks for putting an interplanetary teleportation spell in the new setting book. I follow similar guidelines to Ars Magica (no spells can affect anything outside of the lunar sphere on the same plane), so now we have a way around that. This was a major hole in the rules that needed to be fixed.
<3<3<3
NbW41, high five for keeping Ars Magica ideas alive!
Who else is excited about the campaign possiblities brought about by the existence of this spell?Not to mention the outline of the other planets in the system in "Children of the Void"
That was one of my favorite articles, I hope it gets it's own book at some point.
Yep. Pathfinder Barsoom is way too awesome to let lie.
Did they ever determine the range on greater teleport? I've got one of 10,000 miles/caster level and I think that I got that from the Children of the Void article, but I'm not sure.
I'm pretty sure the description on greater teleport is "Same as teleport only with no limit on range and you only have to have glanced at it."
This tempts me that if I ever get that amulet (can't remember the name, but it lets you breath in a vaccume) that I should grab that and use greater teleport to the moon.
I'd love to see the DMs face when doing that :D
RD has his usual problem of being so shackled to RAW that he won't even houserule anything, so he wants the RAW to be changed to conform with his ideas.
That's only partially true. Just because people can fix a problem with house rules doesn't mean the RAW shouldn't also be fixed with clarifications and errata at some point.
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Regardless of what anyone thinks about Ravingdorks play style, personality, or group I do think he has a valid point that the designers should pay attention to.
And that is: the introduction of a new spell should not remove functionality from an existing spell. Before Interplanetary Teleport existed (in Golarian for those that are splitting hairs) Greater Teleport had no range limit. Now Interplanetary Teleport has introduced a range limit to Greater Teleport and (conveniently) offers itself up as a solution. I don't think this is great spell design.
And just to be clear (before the personal attacks begin) I don't personally care about this issue but I do feel it is a valid point.
+1
Despite the fact RD and I have butted heads before, I believe this is one of the times he has a valid point.I believe that where possible, all spell/feat/ability descriptions should be as self-contained as possible, to prevent confusion and page flipping.
I accept that may not always be possible, for space reasons, but when that occurs, the default approach should be to include as much info as possible in the spell/feat/ability to which the players get earliest access (the lesser version of the spell, the first feat in the tree, the lowest-level class ability). The reason for this is that there's a lot to read in the Core Rules alone, and many players and GMs are learning as they go, keeping just far enough ahead of the PCs xp level to pre-empt what they are capable of doing (or facing from a APL-appropriate enemy).
What you don't want is to get to Improved Eye-Poke, and read text like 'Mo may now jab Curly in the eye as a standard action, rather than a full-round...', and be thinking 'What? I've been letting him do it as a standard action for the last 6 levels!'.
I understand how this particular issue has come about, and it's down to the fact that the spell in question was printed in a non-core source, and that most campaign settings don't mention any solar systems with habitable planets, implying all off-world actions will take place on the Outer Planes or variant Prime Materials.
However, future problems can be avoided by being very careful about throwing out terms like 'infinite' range, 'permanent' durations, 'irresistable' forces and 'immovable' objects.
They reinforce the implication that D&D/PF is a Cleric/Druid/Wizard-only game, that 'you must have this many full-caster levels to be allowed on this ride', and that 'Muggles and Mudbloods need not apply for this quest'.
I don't think the writer of Greater Teleport intended it to be used to travel a trillion light-years, but if that's the case, they should avoid ZOMG!NORANGELIMIT! wording that implies it can.
That's only partially true. Just because people can fix a problem with house rules doesn't mean the RAW shouldn't also be fixed with clarifications and errata at some point.RAW WAS just fixed and clarified with the addition of Interplanetary Teleport.
You can't fix something that was never broken. The new spell was unnecessary and sets a HORRIBLE precedent.
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You can't fix something that was never broken. The new spell was unnecessary and sets a HORRIBLE precedent.That's only partially true. Just because people can fix a problem with house rules doesn't mean the RAW shouldn't also be fixed with clarifications and errata at some point.RAW WAS just fixed and clarified with the addition of Interplanetary Teleport.
YES THE SKY IS FALLING RIGHT NOW.
YES THE SKY IS FALLING RIGHT NOW.You can't fix something that was never broken. The new spell was unnecessary and sets a HORRIBLE precedent.That's only partially true. Just because people can fix a problem with house rules doesn't mean the RAW shouldn't also be fixed with clarifications and errata at some point.RAW WAS just fixed and clarified with the addition of Interplanetary Teleport.
WHY ARE WE YELLING? ;p
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However, future problems can be avoided by being very careful about throwing out terms like 'infinite' range, 'permanent' durations, 'irresistable' forces and 'immovable' objects.
This isn't possible. You can't write a rules set to cover EVERY circumstance and some assumptions have to be made. If you disagree with that, feel free to re-write everything that you use for your games and see how much time that would take. This is why the game uses a GM, and not a program.
They reinforce the implication that D&D/PF is a Cleric/Druid/Wizard-only game, that 'you must have this many full-caster levels to be allowed on this ride', and that 'Muggles and Mudbloods need not apply for this quest'.
Really, we're back to this again?
I don't think the writer of Greater Teleport intended it to be used to travel a trillion light-years, but if that's the case, they should avoid ZOMG!NORANGELIMIT! wording that implies it can.
So, Paizo shouldn't fix an error they made in the first place?
I am not usually this combatitive, but I think people are making mountains of molehills. If you're not even using the Inner Sea guide, the new spell doesn't even matter. In my view, the spell was added as a way of saying "Well, if you want to explore Golarian more, there are actually other planets, but we recommend that be saved for very high level adventures and this spell be used to accomplish it."
Eric Mona isn't going to kick down the door and crush your dice if you want to use Greater Teleport to reach other planets. I've said my peace, continue to rage against the dying of the light in the world if you wish.
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That's only partially true. Just because people can fix a problem with house rules doesn't mean the RAW shouldn't also be fixed with clarifications and errata at some point.RAW WAS just fixed and clarified with the addition of Interplanetary Teleport.
+1
It exists, you can do it. I don't get the outrage, beyond some sense of entitlement to be able to break the game.
That's only partially true. Just because people can fix a problem with house rules doesn't mean the RAW shouldn't also be fixed with clarifications and errata at some point.RAW WAS just fixed and clarified with the addition of Interplanetary Teleport.+1
It exists, you can do it. I don't get the outrage, beyond some sense of entitlement to be able to break the game.
Like I said, it sets a precedent. A bad one.
As has been said by others, a new spell should not change the way an old spell works.
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That's only partially true. Just because people can fix a problem with house rules doesn't mean the RAW shouldn't also be fixed with clarifications and errata at some point.RAW WAS just fixed and clarified with the addition of Interplanetary Teleport.+1
It exists, you can do it. I don't get the outrage, beyond some sense of entitlement to be able to break the game.
Like I said, it sets a precedent. A bad one.
As has been said by others, a new spell should not change the way an old spell works.
I just realized something.
Open your core rule book to page 359.
Read teleport, greater, specifically the last sentance.
Facepalm.
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I don't think the writer of Greater Teleport intended it to be used to travel a trillion light-years, but if that's the case, they should avoid ZOMG!NORANGELIMIT! wording that implies it can.
So, Paizo shouldn't fix an error they made in the first place?
Where did I say they shouldn't?
The problem is, they've done half a job.
If Greater Teleport needs scaling back (which, I believe it does) then let's get it scaled back in the PF Core Rules.
If it gets missed in the first go-round, then let's get it errataed, and corrected in the next printing of the Core Rules.
Don't have the correction be hidden in the implications between the lines of a level 9 spell, which doesn't follow the normal alphabetic order, in a GM-only product, describing non-standard play, in a specific campaign world, written for an old version of the game.
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I just realized something.
Open your core rule book to page 359.
Read teleport, greater, specifically the last sentance.
Facepalm.
Is the wording identical to the PFSRD?
Teleport, Greater
School conjuration (teleportation); Level sorcerer/wizard 7, summoner 5
This spell functions like teleport, except that there is no range limit and there is no chance you arrive off target. In addition, you need not have seen the destination, but in that case you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting. If you attempt to teleport with insufficient information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply reappear in your original location. Interplanar travel is not possible.
If so, how is that relevant to this thread?
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I just realized something.
Open your core rule book to page 359.
Read teleport, greater, specifically the last sentance.
Facepalm.
Is the wording identical to the PFSRD?
Teleport, Greater
School conjuration (teleportation); Level sorcerer/wizard 7, summoner 5
This spell functions like teleport, except that there is no range limit and there is no chance you arrive off target. In addition, you need not have seen the destination, but in that case you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting. If you attempt to teleport with insufficient information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply reappear in your original location. Interplanar travel is not possible.If so, how is that relevant to this thread?
Because the spell as written specifcally forbids interplanetary travel, and the main complaint seems to have been that the old spell didn't have a limitation on interplanetary tracel and so adding a spell was retcon.
But in reality, there is no change to theexisting spell, only a new more powerful version.
"Interplanar" does not equal "Interplanetary"
Because the spell as written specifically forbids interplanetary travel, and the main complaint seems to have been that the old spell didn't have a limitation on interplanetary travel and so adding a spell was retcon.Teleport, Greater
School conjuration (teleportation); Level sorcerer/wizard 7, summoner 5
This spell functions like teleport, except that there is no range limit and there is no chance you arrive off target. In addition, you need not have seen the destination, but in that case you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting. If you attempt to teleport with insufficient information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply reappear in your original location. Interplanar travel is not possible.
Look again. That says "interplanar".
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..and now, the weather.
ZOMG IT BUUUUUUUURNS!
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You die a horrible death due to temperature and lack of pressure. Here's your new character sheet, unless somebody has a true resurrection handy.I roll a Warforged Wizard and try again.
Well, that means you just pulled a frozen Captain America on your buddies. On the moon. Still, beats having to reroll the char :)
To me the main issue is not about interplanetary travel, it's about new spell design. Forget, for a moment, the interplanetary stuff and just think about this from a spell design perspective. Look at my Fireball example above in the thread.
This issue is tied to cosmology and interplanetary travel. You can't ignore the underlying issue, for it provides the reason for why things were done as they were.
Since the core rules don't assume that there are other planets, they never really provided a means to travel to them. You can't travel to a place that doesn't exist.
And, as I said repeatedly, distance alone might not be the concern here: In many instances where planets were on the scene, there were other barriers preventing interplanetary travel.
So now when they really looked at the issue for their Campaign Setting, they defined how planets worked: Normal teleport doesn't let you get off-world, but there is a powerful spell that does.
There are also reasons why that is so.
And frankly, I'd rather have them say that in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, regular teleport spells can't get you off-world than inventing some cheesy barrier just to avoid changing spells for their campaign.
Rule one for good world building is: You change the rules to fit the game, not vice versa.
And honestly... I'm actually quite pleased that folks are this interested in other planets. Means that us perhaps doing a planetary book some day in the future is more likely to happen, since it seems that there's lots of interest in the topic.
Does "HELL YES!" violate the terms of use? Because that's the most modest way that I can accurately express my enthusiasm.
Oh well, I'm going with it anyway: HELL YEAH!
I don't really see a problem with the spell personally. All the games I play in will normally follow three models:
1) the World Hopping campaign setting- this is similar to Spelljammers or Everway (if any one is actually familiar with it). Your DM wants to go to different worlds and you'll probably be able to travel to them long before you'd get Greater Teleport.
2) the Moon(s) not just a lifeless rock setting- That big rock you can see at night has what seems like plant life and water and possibly lights in the shadowed area. This means that the DM probably has an idea of what's there and has ways to get there (possibly as easy as in a World Hoping game). I've got no problem with greater teleport getting to an orbiting moon since you can see it in some detail. Now you could do this with another planet but chances are you have many of active gates to this planet as there wouldn't really be that much curiousity without the moon in the sky that you can see signs of life on it. No matter what the DM decides to do, chances are you are intended to go there at some point in the arc.
3) The Planet Centic setting- Most games I've played in follow this model. If there is talk of other planet-like bodies in the sky it's usually "The moon is out so it's a fairly bright night" or something along that line. Going to strange new worlds means traveling to other Planes. There is no thought to other planets.
I consider professional settings that put thought into what else is out there (To my knowledge Golarian would be the first one that talks about other planets in the main setting book) are more aberrations then standards. They have multiple people contributing and are specifically design so that various sections of the world can be developed to cover different genre types and styles of play. Most homebrew settings don't have the level of detail that the published ones do.
So what's all this got to do with Interplanetary Teleport? Well if I'm playing in a game that fits a type 2 or 3 style and I get up to casting level 9 spells, I can go up to my DM and say "Can I take this spell?". This allows me a way to open up the possibility of exploring other worlds because it says what it does right on the tin so if a gm allows it, the GM has to be thinking about how to implement it. Greater Teleport has nothing saying you can travel to other planets in it. If some one tried to use Greater Teleport in a game I was running, and didn't want to deal with it I could easily say that another world is another Plane. Its a good way to start this type of conversation with a DM or get a DM thinking about it, in my opinion.
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And honestly... I'm actually quite pleased that folks are this interested in other planets. Means that us perhaps doing a planetary book some day in the future is more likely to happen, since it seems that there's lots of interest in the topic.Does "HELL YES!" violate the terms of use? Because that's the most modest way that I can accurately express my enthusiasm.
Oh well, I'm going with it anyway: HELL YEAH!
I would buy that book. I would buy a whole series of them actually, as well as modules set on other planets. I really like the concets you created in that article.
Yes. I see what you and others are saying about interplanetary travel and world building and I agree. Now try to see what I and others are saying about new spell design.
Lets say I found this spell in PF#234:
Magic Missile, Interplanetary: This spell functions like Magic Missile except that it also affects elves.
Do you think this spell is well designed? Do you feel it changes the way Magic Missile works?
I don't interpret it the same way. For example, plane shift states that you appear 5 to 500 miles randomly away from your destination. It does not state that you do not appear inside a mountain, or at the bottom of a lake, or 500 miles in the air, yet I've never heard of a case where such would be the result, and in my opinion anyone attempting to argue that such things should happen is just being silly.
So, in my interpretation, it's a reasonable assumption that plain old greater teleport has a limitation, but what the limitation was was never clearly spelled out. This is just a clarification. It may be that at some point in the future they come out with a lesser plane shift that is a "more dangerous version used in emergencies, for unlike plane shift you might end up inside a solid object and take 1d6 damage per 100 feet of distance to the closest opening."
That would, by the above arguments, be a change to plane shift, but I would put that also in the category of "clarification" rather than "ZOMG it's broke!"
The magic missile example, while theoretically the same as the greater teleport vs. interplanar teleport issue, isn't really the same at all, as I doubt there's thousands of instances of use of greater teleport to go between planets that will suddenly be invalidated - in fact I suspect the actual number is somewehere darn close to zero. I do suspect that elves have been hit with a magic missile many, many times.