How to make enemy spellcasters fear fighters?


Advice

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Sovereign Court

It is unjust to favorize spellcasters, let's see what can be done so that a fighter, or a similar straightforward melee character can do to make spellcasters fear him. I say:

Disruptive, Spellbraker, Lunge, Step Up, Combat Patrol, Dazing Assault, Following Step, Step up and strike,

The step up, following step and step up and strike are a horrid combination...focing your opponents to withdraw.

And disruptive and spellbreaker are also excellent against adjacent spellcasters...try to cast that spell now...

Liberty's Edge

There isn't much in this game than a fighter-type character of any kind who has a spell caster supporting him. A flying wizard is dangerous, but a flying fighter is death from above. Wizards with a miss chance are hard to hit - fighters with any miss chance are nigh unto invincible.

A cleric with 'silence' cast on himself can be dangerous to spellcasters if he can close in on them. A fighter with the same spell on himself is much worse.

But if you're looking for a fighter who kills spell casters on his own, one of my favorite techniques is the old "guy with a composite bow and readied action" way of fighting. Obviously, it has to be adapted for high-level combat, but it can be very, very, very effective.


Really the only way to make spellcasters fear fighters is for the fighters to get the drop on them really badly....and for that fighter to be specifically built to negate spellcasters.

A fighter dedicated to readying actions to disrupt the spellcasters is also really good, provided that he can target/see/hit the caster....which once again really just requires getting the drop on him.


Lyrax wrote:


But if you're looking for a fighter who kills spell casters on his own, one of my favorite techniques is the old "guy with a composite bow and readied action" way of fighting. Obviously, it has to be adapted for high-level combat, but it can be very, very, very effective.

Huh. Nobody ever springs for 4k Gloves of Missile Snaring (already cheap, half price if crafted)?


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Archer with Disruptive Shot.

Liberty's Edge

Dire Mongoose wrote:
Lyrax wrote:


But if you're looking for a fighter who kills spell casters on his own, one of my favorite techniques is the old "guy with a composite bow and readied action" way of fighting. Obviously, it has to be adapted for high-level combat, but it can be very, very, very effective.

Huh. Nobody ever springs for 4k Gloves of Missile Snaring (already cheap, half price if crafted)?

Not nobody ever. But their existence doesn't invalidate the tactic entirely, just forces a different permutation of it.


The higher the level of caster, the harder it should be for the fighter to be a major threat. I'm a big fan of the melee characters and I can do quite a bit with them. A caster should learn as he levels and use appropriate defensive spells. Some spells are universally good against non-casters: blur, displacement, entropic shield, fire shield, and many more. There is little reason why the caster wouldn't have a few of these prepared.

Also, just like a melee fighter needs to be close to use his best options, the caster probably needs to be a bit farther away to use his. Karate Kid 2 taught us that the best way to avoid being hit is to not be in the path of the punch (drum technique). A caster that is far enough away limits the non-caster's options. Simply by levitating, flying, whatever, the caster has limited the non-caster to ranged attacks. Now he only needs a couple of spells to handle defense against ranged attacks. He can use the saved spell slots for some offense and call it good.

There are things the non-casters can do. Often winning initiative is one of the best things. If the non-caster can hit the caster hard enough in one round and still position himself to be a threat if there is a second round, the non-caster should do fine. If not though, good luck.


Wind Wall is the killer spell vs archer fighters (gloves of missile snaring are just a distraction). Protection from arrows is a nice long duration buff which can make casters relatively secure vs low end archers.

Honestly, I believe strongly that a fighter needs to have at least one potion of fly available at all times once flying foes become more commonplace. Yes you can rely on the casters to fly your butt around most of the time but sometimes you absolutely gotta have the ability to go toe to toe with a flying monster/NPC and waiting for the casters to have a spare action to buff you can be frustrating.

A fighter should also have a spare potion of see invisibility. Many casters rely on Imp Invisibility as their primary defensive buff. If you can reliably pierce that illusion it becomes much easier to target and slay any caster.

Unfortunately gem of seeing is incredibly expensive but the true sight ability associated with it can be a life saver vs all sorts of mages and outsiders.

Beads of Force are a cheap but useful method of locking down a mage (or other target). The Force sphere effect basically prevents the mage from active in a proactive manner unless he's got a disintegrate or dispel magic memorized (less common with the PF dispel magic).

Iron Bands are another useful item for locking down a caster. Unfortunately too expensive but the ability to grapple a mage at range is a very nice effect. Grapple = Dead Mage IMHO.

Effective neutralization of a mage basically depends on your ability to counteract his primary advantages. Being able to eliminate his mobility and defensive advantages is a must.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Play an archer, hopefully win initative, and get ready to counterspell, aka, shoot them with an arrow(s) when they try and cast a spell. If you hit and do a good bit of damage (and any archer build should be able to) then you are very likely to disrupt the spell, as the DC is fairly difficult (10+Damage+Spell Level). Rinse and repeat until the target is dead (or low enough that a full attack can bring them down).

Failing that an item that creates an anti-magic field (used to be a torc in 3.5) shut a wizard down almost completely. Their only remaining options being a wall of force or a prismatic wall, which only allow him to escape. Or any creatures he may have planar binded/ally, which (barring excessive numbers) a warrior should be able to put down.

Many people make it out to be that melee has no chance vs magic, I find this to be untrue. If a warrior can get in melee combat with a wizard, he is in for a world of hurt, few builds can last more than a couple rounds with a warrior. Yes the wizard has a variety of options to avoid this, but everything is circumstantial, none of it is guaranteed. About all a wizard can reliably count on is the ability to escape a potential conflict.

-- Edit --

And if it's just fearing a fighter, they already should. You're average lvl 10 wizard has what say 70 HP and a none to high AC? It's not hard to build a fighter who can drop him in a single full round of attacks. The wizard should be only as brave as he can reliably hope to keep this from happening.


vuron wrote:
Protection from arrows is a nice long duration buff which can make casters relatively secure vs low end archers.

The subject gains damage reduction 10/magic against ranged weapons... Not *that* good, trust me!

Magic (bows that fires magic)arrows are not that hard to find :P


Rickmeister wrote:
vuron wrote:
Protection from arrows is a nice long duration buff which can make casters relatively secure vs low end archers.

The subject gains damage reduction 10/magic against ranged weapons... Not *that* good, trust me!

Magic (bows that fires magic)arrows are not that hard to find :P

He did say 'low end archers'.


Yes, I was more referring to archer spam which is more commonly a BBEG + Minion strategy but I guess can come in to play with cohorts + followers and big set piece battles.

Sczarni

Against equal level opponents, the best solution may be to simply wear down the Mage. If you can force him to concentrate all his spells on purely defensive actions, you can then wait out their durations, shoot him & hope for lucky hits, or attempt to "Arrow Counterspell" as noted above.

As most posters have said on other threads, Blaster wizards/sorcerers are amongst the least efficient, so the Fighter has to rely on his saves & HP to counter.

Against Summoner Mages, remember to concentrate on the Mage, if you can. Most times, the Summon is not as big a threat (exceptions do occur, of course), and let's not forget that wonderful Full-Round casting time.

Against Battlefield Control types, well, you're kinda out of luck. Wind Wall negates arrows, so you'll have to move and probably eat some SoD's. Clouds, Pits, and the like can really hamper movement, but again, that's mostly a defensive strategy.

Against pure SoD casters, the game really becomes Rocket-Tag.

Scenario 1:
GM: Roll Initiative
Mage>Fighter
Result: SoD on Fighter, likely to kill, maim, or cause him to flee.

Scenario 2:
Fighter>Mage
Result: Full Attack + Manyshot + Deadly Aim against flat-footed Mage. Mage is either dead or seriously considering fleeing.

Of course, if the SoD caster really dumped his stats to pump his DC's through the roof, and is packing almost all Rocket Spells, the fighter's life just got easier. Poison + mediocre Fort Save + Arrows of Doom = Sad Mage.

Long story short, if it comes down to Rocket Tag, he who wins Init will usually win (and if the Mage is a Diviner, forget it, you've already lost).

Against the other main types of caster, the above mentioned feats (Following Step + Reach is especially nice) do well.

Finally, DO NOT DUMP WIS. As a melee combatant, it is your duty to maintain excellent defenses. Will Saves are one of the more important ones.

Traits, Feats, Gear, and Racial Abilities all come into play here. Think that extra +1 to hit/+2 damage you can squeak out by dropping Wis to 8 is a good trade? How about when you get Dominated and smash your buddy?


psionichamster wrote:
Long story short, if it comes down to Rocket Tag, he who wins Init will usually win (and if the Mage is a Diviner, forget it, you've already lost).

Yup. Were Bear diviner = double yup.


Weapon Adept 17 will autowin the Rocket tag.


Brambleman wrote:
Weapon Adept 17 will autowin the Rocket tag.

Then lose 'cause he's still a monk : )


Sylvanite wrote:
Brambleman wrote:
Weapon Adept 17 will autowin the Rocket tag.
Then lose 'cause he's still a monk : )

R.I.P "Monk" - It seemed like a good idea at the time.


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As many others have pointed out, a ranged martial character with a ready action is a serious threat to a caster. If the caster is humanoid and the ranged martial character is a ranger who has chosen that humanoid as his favored enemy... that's gonna be a mighty powerful blow for the caster to overcome the concentration DC. So a ranger with a favored enemy may be the best pure martial character to quickly defeat a caster.

Since martial characters tend to do a lot of damage in a full attack, the best way to put down a caster is to figure out a way to get a full attack on them before they cast some devastating save or lose spell on you. There are a couple of ways to really help your odds for this.

Ring of Spell Turning - turns spells which target you against the caster.
Ring of Blinking - gives spells which target you a 50% miss chance. Also gives you 50% damage reduction to area of affect spells.
Shield of Spell Resistance - up to a 17% chance of spell failure.
Armor of Etherealness - Pop out of ethereal plane adjacent to spell-caster, full attack him.
For melee, a weapon of spell storing with an appropriate anti-magic spell on it (silence even at low levels). For ranged, crit with a "thundering" weapon and deafen the spellcaster.
A Brooch of shielding for those pesky magic missiles...
A lavender green Ioun stone for those spells less than 8th level....

It might be fun to build a specific martial caster-killer character. I think you could do quite a lot just with magic items alone. Add some feats and class abilities.... I wouldn't want to run into Joe the Wizard-killer.


Not to keep beating the same dead horse, but if we're assuming the martial character can have like 200k gold worth of items, surely the caster could have 2k gold gloves of missile snaring. :P

The readied action to shoot an arrow is a nice idea, but one of the cheapest magic items in the entire game just flat out beats it -- even for an epic level archer shooting at a lowbie mook mage.

Sczarni

Dire Mongoose wrote:

Not to keep beating the same dead horse, but if we're assuming the martial character can have like 200k gold worth of items, surely the caster could have 2k gold gloves of missile snaring. :P

The readied action to shoot an arrow is a nice idea, but one of the cheapest magic items in the entire game just flat out beats it -- even for an epic level archer shooting at a lowbie mook mage.

Poison gas. In the wizards sleeping chambers. If their paranoia levels are up, the Mage may survive. If not, surprise round beats high Init, at least. Suck gas, evil-doers!

Next, Mage boy gets to face the longbow wielding madman in the corner, dressed in black. Oops.

For tasty irony, Gunslinger w/ Mage-Race Bane guns.

"Shoot the Wizwyrm first, Chummer!" was common parlance at the Shadowrun table, and for good reason.

If the Fighter is NPC, and the party is involved, they likely have a very fun and challenging fight.

If the Mage is the NPC, now's a good chance for GM shenanigans, where you can test out spell tactics and really get to slam home a high powered caster boss.

A win-win situation.


Fighters get two feats at first level, three if a human, and a feat every level. Iron Will and Improved Iron Will are a must. Lightning Reflexes are also good, but I never go for it because if the wizard is throwing damage at me, then he has probably already lost.

A half elf fighter with the Dual Minded alternate racial trait gets a +2 to all will saves and +2 vs enchantment. First level feats are improved initiative and Iron will. At first level, that fighter has base will of 4, 6 vs enchantment.

As posters before have stated, it is largly dependant upon who wins initiative. At high level, a wizard will never lose, or shouldn't. Moment of Prescience and quickened spells allow for quick and easy escape. A wizard who has time to prepare is nigh unbeatable.

However, I am a firm believer that a fighter is capable of winning against the wizard. Everything stated above is great. I remember reading about barbed arrow heads that "stay burried in the target until they are removed...heal check of 15....deals [xd6] damage" somewhere (not PF material). That means that buying an oil of silence and shooting the caster with this arrow is sure death. Since the spell is on the arrow, no save should be allowed. If that kind of arrow is avaiable, it would be a good friend.

I'm also a fan of bane weapons. If your playing a fighter that is focused on destroying arcane casters, I'd allow the 3.5 mage bane enchantment. A weapon of mage bane would be one of my first purchases.

If your GM is ameanable to homebrew, suggest feats that offered SR against all magic that could not be lowered. A friend did this in one of his games. Three feats that eventually led to being completly immune to magic...beneficial and harmful, as well as magic items. Made for a wicked mage killer, but a fairly gimped character. Fighter with masterwork arms and armor at 12th level was amusing but not very efficient against proper challenge rating.


Everything I see here is based mostly on having expensive gear/other casters to buff the fighter/IFs (like IF it is your favored enemy or IF you catch wizard doing x)

The most important thing is initiative. But even then that only helps if the wizard is standing on the floor a reasonable distance away and really isn't buffed much at all. (I might as well join since we're playing the IF game...)

Just having overland flight means the wizard is probably flying. Also, having a really high Intelligence generally means wizards TOTALLY understand how people are going to try and combat them. Expect quickened spells and all kinds of shenanigans designed to negate that.

Even just dropping something like an obscuring mist gives the wizard all kinds of time, and if the wizard has time, it's game over.

It's not that a fighter can't take a wizard down....it's just that things have to fall pretty neatly for it to happen.....and usually realllllly super-intelligent people (wizards) don't let things fall like that.

But in an arena against a fighter with maxed initiative who starts five feet away and pre-buffs aren't allowed? Yeah....I guess the fighter should be feared.


I'm not sure where you get "gloves of missile snaring" I don't seem to see them in my core rulebook or advanced players' guide. So I can't really discuss how to overcome them with a ranged character. Unless they can snare an unlimited number of missiles though, a full attacking ranger with rapid shot, many shot and a bow of speed is going to be unleashing a barrage of arrows at the caster. As a DM I'm probably not going to allow a 2K magic item to snare six arrows in one round.

And my suggestions were not restricted to ranged attckers, most of them work quite well for melee attacks as well.

If you build a caster-killing martial character and gain initiative in combat, you've got a pretty good shot at killing a caster before they can do much to react.

In 3.5 I had a ranger who specialized in killing dragons. Boy did he kill dragons...


brassbaboon wrote:

As many others have pointed out, a ranged martial character with a ready action is a serious threat to a caster. If the caster is humanoid and the ranged martial character is a ranger who has chosen that humanoid as his favored enemy... that's gonna be a mighty powerful blow for the caster to overcome the concentration DC. So a ranger with a favored enemy may be the best pure martial character to quickly defeat a caster.

Since martial characters tend to do a lot of damage in a full attack, the best way to put down a caster is to figure out a way to get a full attack on them before they cast some devastating save or lose spell on you. There are a couple of ways to really help your odds for this.

Ring of Spell Turning - turns spells which target you against the caster.
Ring of Blinking - gives spells which target you a 50% miss chance. Also gives you 50% damage reduction to area of affect spells.
Shield of Spell Resistance - up to a 17% chance of spell failure.
Armor of Etherealness - Pop out of ethereal plane adjacent to spell-caster, full attack him.
For melee, a weapon of spell storing with an appropriate anti-magic spell on it (silence even at low levels). For ranged, crit with a "thundering" weapon and deafen the spellcaster.
A Brooch of shielding for those pesky magic missiles...
A lavender green Ioun stone for those spells less than 8th level....

It might be fun to build a specific martial caster-killer character. I think you could do quite a lot just with magic items alone. Add some feats and class abilities.... I wouldn't want to run into Joe the Wizard-killer.

By the time the figher has that kind of gear, the wizard will have an answer for that.

Greater Arcane Sight gives him an idea of the fighters magical defenses.
-Spell Turning, Blinking, and SR are negated by summons or bound creatures.
-Any wizard who throws damage spells at a fighter deserves to be beaten by that fighter. Attack a fighter's will save, not his HP.
-Etherealness is negated by the true sight that the wizard should be using.
-I find a resilient sphere to be my best friend. I target myself with it, sure I am confined, but nothing can hurt me and I can teleport out without any problems.
-The wizard is a situational master. He has the versitility to defeat enemies but is limited by spells prepared. For this reason, any moderate to high level caster will have an escape plan in the event he runs into something he is not prepared to deal with. The next day he has an idea of what to expect and plans accordingly. Wizards are supposed to be smart, average human intelligence is 10-11...to even cast spells the wizard has to be smarter than most people alive today. They know when to retreat. ;)

Not saying a tricked out fighter isn't scary, or that gear selection isn't a huge factor. Given equal resources, a wizard can negate gear. Tactics is where the fighter has to win.


We also have to address if it is PC vs PC, PC fighter vs NPC mage, NPC figher vs PC mage, or NPC vs NPC.

The reason this is important is the use of hero points. Spending a hero point allow a character to act immediatly, as if using a readied action. A PC wizard uses a hero point to act now and teleports away. If the fighter does get the drop on him, he spends the two points to cheat death, his contingency kicks in, and he is teleported to his home base, or a sympathetic temple where he has pre-paid for healing.

The Figher can do similar...allowing him to act first. If the fighter is already close, starting a grapple is a standard action.

In both cases, the Extra Action ability gives the wizard a 3rd spell in the round (because high level wizards will be using quicken spell), and a figher gets another attack or use of an item/ability.


Kalrik wrote:


By the time the figher has that kind of gear, the wizard will have an answer for that.

Greater Arcane Sight gives him an idea of the fighters magical defenses.
-Spell Turning, Blinking, and SR are negated by summons or bound creatures.
-Any wizard who throws damage spells at a fighter deserves to be beaten by that fighter. Attack a fighter's will save, not his HP.
-Etherealness...

Just a couple of comments here.

Being "smart" is not the same thing as being "omniscient". Neither is "smart" the same thing as "infallible." Some of the smartest money experts in the world were taken in by a flim-flam con man running a simple pyramid scheme, so don't expect me to accept the premise that wizards are so brilliant that they'll always have the right spells, and always have the right gear.

If a wizard is DESIGNED to combat a fighter who is DESIGNED to kill wizards, then it's going to be a short fight for one of them. But most wizards are not designed to combat a wizard-killing fighter, they are designed to be versatile which means some days they have the "right" spells memorized, and other days they don't, depending on what they, with their lack of omniscience, thought they would need for that day.

A fighter who wants to fight spellcasters needs to beef up their spell saves with feats and magic items where they can. Anything that will absorb spell attacks is a huge help, since that absorbed spell might have been the save or die wizard attack which now is just a wasted wizard round giving the fighter another full round attack on the wizard.

I would say that making the wizard flee for his life counts as "fearing" the fighter.


brassbaboon wrote:
Kalrik wrote:


By the time the figher has that kind of gear, the wizard will have an answer for that.

Greater Arcane Sight gives him an idea of the fighters magical defenses.
-Spell Turning, Blinking, and SR are negated by summons or bound creatures.
-Any wizard who throws damage spells at a fighter deserves to be beaten by that fighter. Attack a fighter's will save, not his HP.
-Etherealness...

Just a couple of comments here.

Being "smart" is not the same thing as being "omniscient". Neither is "smart" the same thing as "infallible." Some of the smartest money experts in the world were taken in by a flim-flam con man running a simple pyramid scheme, so don't expect me to accept the premise that wizards are so brilliant that they'll always have the right spells, and always have the right gear.

If a wizard is DESIGNED to combat a fighter who is DESIGNED to kill wizards, then it's going to be a short fight for one of them. But most wizards are not designed to combat a wizard-killing fighter, they are designed to be versatile which means some days they have the "right" spells memorized, and other days they don't, depending on what they, with their lack of omniscience, thought they would need for that day.

A fighter who wants to fight spellcasters needs to beef up their spell saves with feats and magic items where they can. Anything that will absorb spell attacks is a huge help, since that absorbed spell might have been the save or die wizard attack which now is just a wasted wizard round giving the fighter another full round attack on the wizard.

I would say that making the wizard flee for his life counts as "fearing" the fighter.

I would agree with you if the class wasn't what it is. The premise of a wizard is great power in frail form. I've never played, or seen played, a wizard that was not thinking about defense. Any person who has played a wizard from low levels to high has learned that defensive thinking is always a must.

You are correct, wizards are not omniscient. I would say you are also correct that a wizard does not prepare for the focused mage killing fighter. However, the wizard IS prepared for "something that wants to kill me by beating me over the head." You can substitute the "beating me over the head" with "shooting me full of arrows" and still be correct.

You said that wizards are designed to be versitile and that they may or may not have the right spells memorized. You are correct. Part of the fighters strategy is catching a wizard off guard when he doesn't have all the right spells. However, as I stated, most wizards will have an escape route planned for just that event (facing something that they do not have the proper spells to deal with). Since you referenced several very costly magic items, I took it as an example of what a higher level fighter would do. A high level wizard is a bag of tricks with very effective ways of escaping.

Stating that making a wizard flee qualifies as fearing the fighter is too subjective. My opinion, it is no different than a contractor showing up for a job, realizing that he doesn't have the correct tools, and coming back with the proper tools the following day. Does the contractor fear the job?

Edit for spelling, grammar, and clearity. Also, I love my wizards, but I'm all for a figher who can threaten the wizard. In PF, that is at least a possiblity. :)


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

In many situations making the other party flee is the exact same thing as victory. What if the fighter is just about to kill the Pope or something and the wizard needs to stop him? If you have to retreat you have lost. After all victory is not always measured by the life and death of the potential combatants.

The other thing I think is important to recall that D&D is really a team game. You're party of lvl 10 Wizards is going to be in for a very rough time if they get ambushed by say 4 Shambling Mounds (could be a TPK) and would almost certainly have to retreat vs virtually any kind of Golem. Add a fighter into the mix and the situation changes drastically.

Liberty's Edge

If the two are both high-level, the warrior probably has a big advantage. This advantage is the fact that spell saves kinda suck at high level. Even with a 9th-level spell in your pocket, it's super, super hard to get a 30+ DC. And if you rely on Spell Focus + Greater Spell Focus, not all your spells will have the enhanced DC.

If the "fighter" is a high-level Paladin, those SoD spells are all pretty much a joke, and he's immune to a good several of them. And if the wizard is evil...

Well he's better off not being evil.

Shadow Lodge

Don't bother trying to make them afraid of you. Just kill the arrogant fools before they have the chance to stop underestimating you.

Shadow Lodge

brassbaboon wrote:
...don't expect me to accept the premise that wizards are so brilliant that they'll always have the right spells, and always have the right gear.

But that's pretty much the entire argument of the "Wizards always beat everybody all the time!" crowd.


brassbaboon wrote:

I'm not sure where you get "gloves of missile snaring" I don't seem to see them in my core rulebook or advanced players' guide. So I can't really discuss how to overcome them with a ranged character. Unless they can snare an unlimited number of missiles though, a full attacking ranger with rapid shot, many shot and a bow of speed is going to be unleashing a barrage of arrows at the caster. As a DM I'm probably not going to allow a 2K magic item to snare six arrows in one round.

Sorry, they're actually called Gloves of Arrow snaring. My mistake.

They don't beat the full attack, no -- at least not without other defenses in play, in which case you might only legitimately have one arrow make it through in a round and get grabbed. They do reliably beat the "I'm going to ready an action to shoot the wizard when he starts casting" tactic long enough to kill or incapacitate the archer.


Hama wrote:

It is unjust to favorize spellcasters, let's see what can be done so that a fighter, or a similar straightforward melee character can do to make spellcasters fear him. I say:

Disruptive, Spellbraker, Lunge, Step Up, Combat Patrol, Dazing Assault, Following Step, Step up and strike,

The step up, following step and step up and strike are a horrid combination...focing your opponents to withdraw.

And disruptive and spellbreaker are also excellent against adjacent spellcasters...try to cast that spell now...

Simple cast silence on the fighter and grapple the spellcaster.


I think you need to worry more about how the wizard is going to deal with the fighter.

"Run away and return with a full compliment of spells tailored for that fighter" is not a valid solution.

The problem with this matchup is the spellcaster has to stay away from the fighter or immediately die. At melee range the wizard has to worry about a full attack, grapple, or sundering Thus he's going to attempt flight and drop SoS on the fighter.

The second problem is every spell the wizard throws for defense is one that isn't hurting the fighter. How many SoS spells targetting will do you take in a day? How many damage spells? How many summons that are likely to get one ineffective attack off? If the melee monster has statted himself for a high will save what's your plan exactly?

A similarly-equipped fighter has a ton of options to tie the caster down and murder him. Tanglefoot bags, smoke pellet/smoke arrow (both force movement in the next round), thunderstone, etc. Can these be countered? Sure. But that takes more investment and/or spells that involve you not attacking

If you're assuming omniscient wizard and fighter that does nothing but hit things with a sword in melee? Yeah, that doesn't work. If you have actual people behind both characters and both use their resources intelligently, that's a different issue.

As with most 1v1 situations, it does come down heavily on who wins initiative.


you guys are kidding yourselves.

Casters have access to
1. divination spells.
2. Long term minions(undead, planar ally spells, dominations)
3. consistent tactical superiority(flight, invisibility, mind blank, and other already mentioned defensive spells)
4. targeted dispelling to remove the fighters flight etc.
5. And a lesser rod of quicken metamagic will easily net them swift action dimension doors when trouble is close.

The reality is a wizard can deal with a single fighter. All pathfinder did to help fighters was give them a +5 bonus to attacking(even though hit chance and damage weren't their real problem in 3.5)

The number of if's that a fighter needs to kill the wizard are several.
1. If they get the drop on them...
2. If they can get and stay in melee...
3. If they can get around a wizards defensive buffs...
4. If he can get good enough defenses to survive the multiple forms of attack a wizard has at his disposal. So a high ac, high touch ac, high fort save, and high will save are going to be important if he wants to last a round or 2.

good luck.


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Hama wrote:
It is unjust to favorize spellcasters, let's see what can be done so that a fighter, or a similar straightforward melee character can do to make spellcasters fear him.

Is that a joke? Casters should always fear fighters (until upper levels allow them tonnes of defenses... but even).

Pro Tip: Grapple. Spellcasters won't get an AoO (wouldn't matter if they did anyway). With favorable BAB, high strength, low strength on the caster, and feats, it's almost guaranteed to work.

How else could a 2nd level fighter (with no supporting feats) beat a 7th level caster? It happens and it's every caster's nightmare.

Sczarni

I'm reminded of the excellent Bioware game, Knights of the Old Republic 2.

In it, you meet a "Scoundrel" type character (think Han Solo) who hunted down and killed Jedi

Spoiler:
for the old school Sith Lords
back in his hey-day.

When you talk to him and ask how he was able to do so, what with being a regular old dude, his answer is brilliant and elegant.

To defeat the "you're thinking about killing me, and I know that because I read your mind just there" defense, he constantly runs Sabaac (a complicated card game like poker) odds and hands in his head.

Mr. Jedi hears: "Royal flush trumps straight flush, but a high straight trumps .....etc" instead of his actual thoughts.

That lets him get to within striking range.

Then, the poison gas, explosives, capitol ship, air strikes, sabotaged speeders, bushwacking minions with crazy sniper support, and all the rest of his "Cheat-to-Win" tricks come into play.

A favorite scenario of mine:

Jedi (Mage) Hunter flushes his quarry with some kind of direct assault. Preferably, this is with some kind of potentially successful mook, but the likelihood of killing the Mage is slim. The real "point" is to make him waste some spells, get his guard up, and increase pressure on him.

Then, when he either flees (in case the odds are overwhelming, he doesn't have combat spells prepared, etc) or successfully defends himself, he retreats to a position of power for him.

Which has already been infiltrated and laced with explosives.

Mage: Oh well, that was a weird occurrence, some random kid just tried to gun me down in the streets. Good thing I am so very very awesome and Wizardly, eh? <Takes sip of tea>

Mage-Hunter: That's right, just a little more, sucker...<triggers detonator, blowing up the ship/town/castle/etc>...

Granted, this is unlikely to happen in the average game. At the table, if you have a specific named Mage opponent, your best bet is probably some form of "Scry-and-Fry", preferably with Paladin/Fighter/Rogue/Cleric team being teleported in and surrounding Mr. BadMage.

With forethought, some clever use of skills & gear, and absolute ruthlessness, the Fighter (again, not necessarily the class, but the role, at least) can definitely put fear into an enemy spellcaster.

If the NPC is the Melee guy, and you're looking to confound PC spellcasters, just use some of the above tricks, in reverse. Nothing says "Screw you" like kidnapping loved ones, sending notes to the Mage, and luring him into some kind of nasty nasty deathtrap.

Think like the Joker, and you'll be all set.

Liberty's Edge

Even worse, a grappled caster can't cast any spells unless they succeed on a caster check... that will likely be impossible unless they're at least five levels higher than the fighter in question... and even then isn't guaranteed.

Smart casters fear fighters. That's why they have so many spells that defend against them.


thepuregamer wrote:

you guys are kidding yourselves.

Casters have access to
1. divination spells.

Well, I can tell you that using divination spells as a PC has been of very limited usefulness against NPCs in most campaigns I've ever played in. I don't see why they would be any more effective against PCs.

thepuregamer wrote:
2. Long term minions(undead, planar ally spells, dominations)

Fighters have minions too.

thepuregamer wrote:
3. consistent tactical superiority(flight, invisibility, mind blank, and other already mentioned defensive spells)

Fighters can also do all of these things. Smart fighters include potions, wands and magic items as part of their preparation. Most of the tactical superiority you describe is easily matched by a prepared fighter.

thepuregamer wrote:
4. targeted dispelling to remove the fighters flight etc.

Every dispel magic spell the caster memorizes is one less defensive or offensive spell. And dispel magic is not guaranteed.

thepuregamer wrote:
5. And a lesser rod of quicken metamagic will easily net them swift action dimension doors when trouble is close.

As haste potions and speed weapons will net fighters multiple attacks if they gain inititive. And as I and others have pointed out, running away = fighter wins.

thepuregamer wrote:

The reality is a wizard can deal with a single fighter. All pathfinder did to help fighters was give them a +5 bonus to attacking(even though hit chance and damage weren't their real problem in 3.5)

The number of if's that a fighter needs to kill the wizard are several.
1. If they get the drop on them...
2. If they can get and stay in melee...
3. If they can get around a wizards defensive buffs...
4. If he can get good enough defenses to survive the multiple forms of attack a wizard has at his disposal. So a high ac, high touch ac, high fort save, and high will save are going to be important if he wants to last a round or 2.

good luck.

I do think that overall a well prepared caster probably has an advantage over a well prepared fighter, but I don't believe it is nearly as much of an advantage as the caster champions think it is. A smart fighter, ranger or paladin is something a PF caster should be concerned about because they are a legitimate threat, which is all anyone is saying. Nobody is saying fighters always beat casters. We're saying that fighters are legitimate threats, if played properly.


brassbaboon wrote:


thepuregamer wrote:
2. Long term minions(undead, planar ally spells, dominations)

Fighters have minions too.

not really. Leadership is something anyone and everyone can have and thus it does not level the playing field in any fashion.

brassbaboon wrote:


thepuregamer wrote:
3. consistent tactical superiority(flight, invisibility, mind blank, and other already mentioned defensive spells)

Fighters can also do all of these things. Smart fighters include potions, wands and magic items as part of their preparation. Most of the tactical superiority you describe is easily matched by a prepared fighter.

Except all these things come in at low caster lvls unless the fighter wishes to spend ever increasingly large ammounts of his wealth on just getting to hit targets.

brassbaboon wrote:


thepuregamer wrote:
4. targeted dispelling to remove the fighters flight etc.

Every dispel magic spell the caster memorizes is one less defensive or offensive spell. And dispel magic is not guaranteed.

yet 1 greater dispell is going to take out up to 5 buffs a fighter is relying on to even get to his target.

brassbaboon wrote:


thepuregamer wrote:
5. And a lesser rod of quicken metamagic will easily net them swift action dimension doors when trouble is close.

As haste potions and speed weapons will net fighters multiple attacks if they gain inititive. And as I and others have pointed out, running away = fighter wins.

dimension door=/= running away. quickened dimension door is a cheap and easy way to get 400+ feet away from a target that can only hurt you when it is next to you. the caster(the person with more options) can continue to attack from any range, especially if the fighter has been following him into the sky.

Add a contingency into the situation and even grappling isn't going to stop a caster.

Also haste potions cost an action to activate and only last rounds. Not really a strong comparison.

brassbaboon wrote:


thepuregamer wrote:

The reality is a wizard can deal with a single fighter. All pathfinder did to help fighters was give them a +5 bonus to attacking(even though hit chance and damage weren't their real problem in 3.5)

The number of if's that a fighter needs to kill the wizard are several.
1. If they get the drop on them...
2. If they can get and stay in melee...
3. If they can get around a wizards defensive buffs...
4. If he can get good enough defenses to survive the multiple forms of attack a wizard has at his disposal. So a high ac, high touch ac, high fort save, and high will save are going to be important if he wants to last a round or 2.

good luck.

I do think that overall a well prepared caster probably has an advantage over a well prepared fighter, but I don't believe it is nearly as much of an advantage as the caster champions think it is. A smart fighter, ranger or paladin is something a PF caster should be concerned about because they are a legitimate threat, which is all anyone is saying. Nobody is saying fighters always beat casters. We're saying that fighters are legitimate threats, if played properly.

What it really comes down to is a well prepared caster can do his stuff from any range. A well prepared melee character can only do it when he is next to you. And the saddest part is that if he cannot start his turn next to you, then he doesn't even get to use his full attack action.

The system is biased toward casters on just about every level.
Most spells only eat up a standard action and scale with lvl as where a non-caster is tied to full attack actions.

Also non-casters are limited to one main form of attack. One that targets ac and kills you with damage. Casters can kill you with damage, with SoS/SoD or with a multitude of minions.

and they have direct access to spells that give major tactical advantages and give them all day long.

Can a non-caster melee character beat a caster. Sure but his chance of success depends on what lvl range he is in, who is helping him, and whether the caster is pre-occupied enough with other more pressing targets to accidentally allow the fighter to get in melee.

Silver Crusade

At what range do you start combat? And what level is the Wizard? This hase more to do with the out come then almost every thing else. A high level Wizard will win 80% of the time. A low level wizard will win 40% of the time. All any Wizard needs to win is one 2nd level spell. WEB! If they are range or melee it provides full cover. Then they have to get out of it. Even if they make there save. It gives the Wizard 2 to 4 rounds to get ready to kill the fighter.


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Fighter vs. Wizard vs. Fighter vs. Wizard vs. Fighter vs. Wizard...


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Better check the range on those wizard spells as well buddy. Most of the best SoD or SoS spells are close ranged spells, or as fighters like to call it, 'Charging Range.' This is one of the rules I find myself forgetting quite frequently. But if you dimension door 800ft away, all your best spells (Dominate Person, Finger of Death) are out of range, as are most of you're lesser spells (medium range). Basically only damaging evocation effects have long range. This is especially important to recall for the wizard who thinks he can just fly around lobing spells from out of range (also hope

Summons are good at taking hits (especially from monsters), but rarely a threat to fighter of equivelent level. They can generally either be ignored (they won't do enough damage to stop him from killing you), or slayed rather easily. And the spells duration is to short, and casting it takes to long (full round action, very easy to disrupt), for it to be terribly effective.

Now Plannar Binding/Ally have staying power, but have their downsides. The summoned beast could of course break free during its summoning, and if you've summoned something nasty enough to inconvience the fighter, you could be in a world of hurt. Or if you go with the ally option, you are spending resources. No reason the fighter couldn't similarly take some money and purchase some back-up to fight for him. Maybe it would have to be of the more conventional nature, but that doesn't make it any less effective.


thepuregamer wrote:

you guys are kidding yourselves.

Casters have access to
1. divination spells.
2. Long term minions(undead, planar ally spells, dominations)
3. consistent tactical superiority(flight, invisibility, mind blank, and other already mentioned defensive spells)
4. targeted dispelling to remove the fighters flight etc.
5. And a lesser rod of quicken metamagic will easily net them swift action dimension doors when trouble is close.

You're making the same mistake of assuming a fighter that does nothing but run around and swing a sword and a wizard that is omniscient. Even then you run into issues.

1: Great. The wizard has a vague idea that some dude is coming after him?
2: All of which the fighter will dispose of inside a round? Two? And which will likely only consistently hit him on a 19-20. Resources well spent there.
3: Which the caster has to maintain or immediately die.
4: Cool. Fighter has a bow. And a sling. And javelins. And the aforementioned tanglefoot bags, etc. Targeted dispel means the wizard just ate a full attack.
5: So the wizard's ended his turn to give the fighter a full round attack at 2-3 range increments with a bow? Genius.

The fighter has a high AC and fort, cuz he's a fighter. Will is easy to buff up. Touch AC isn't important, as anything you try to do to him there allows a fort save or just doesn't hurt that much. Unless you seriously thinking scorching ray is your path to victory here?


Wizards have the following advantages

1)Information gathering- Divinations are critical but minions can also be used for scouting purposes. Shadow demon, invisible stalker and air elementals all make for great scouts.

2)Freebie Minions-Called creatures are often fighter + mage equivalents. Summons get mowed down but stuff like a Glabrezu (Planar Binding) or Marilith(Greater Planar Binding) can hold their own against level appropriate fighters. Dominated fighters make for good bodyguards ;)

3)Spell Buffs- Overland Flight is 1 hr/per level so you can safely assume that it's always up, mirror image last 1/minute a level so it's pretty easy to raise before encounters.

4) Non-HP track spells- SoL spells are still very viable. Maximum caster stat + a good SoL + persistent spell = very good chance of smacking down a fighter. If necessary then flash the fighter with a targeted debuff (a single enervation is often enough to reduce saves by a decent margin).

5) Get out of jail free cards- Maze, contingent spells, dimension door, teleport are all great ways of buying yourself time. Maze the average fighter and you've bought yourself a pretty decent number of rounds to buff.

Solo casters have weaknesses but solo characters of all types have weaknesses. Good spell selection and proactive wizardry can reduce many of the wizard's weaknesses.

If you want to really compare threat values when was the last time you've faced a NPC high level solo fighter that has been able to seriously challenge the PCs without some epic level mcguffin. When was the last time a high level solo caster gave your party trouble?

I venture that for almost everyone here solo casters represent a bigger challenge to the party than solo martials.


Phneri wrote:
thepuregamer wrote:

you guys are kidding yourselves.

Casters have access to
1. divination spells.
2. Long term minions(undead, planar ally spells, dominations)
3. consistent tactical superiority(flight, invisibility, mind blank, and other already mentioned defensive spells)
4. targeted dispelling to remove the fighters flight etc.
5. And a lesser rod of quicken metamagic will easily net them swift action dimension doors when trouble is close.

You're making the same mistake of assuming a fighter that does nothing but run around and swing a sword and a wizard that is omniscient. Even then you run into issues.

1: Great. The wizard has a vague idea that some dude is coming after him?
2: All of which the fighter will dispose of inside a round? Two? And which will likely only consistently hit him on a 19-20. Resources well spent there.
3: Which the caster has to maintain or immediately die.
4: Cool. Fighter has a bow. And a sling. And javelins. And the aforementioned tanglefoot bags, etc. Targeted dispel means the wizard just ate a full attack.
5: So the wizard's ended his turn to give the fighter a full round attack at 2-3 range increments with a bow? Genius.

The fighter has a high AC and fort, cuz he's a fighter. Will is easy to buff up. Touch AC isn't important, as anything you try to do to him there allows a fort save or just doesn't hurt that much. Unless you seriously thinking scorching ray is your path to victory here?

1. Hey if it is just 1 dude, it is not a big deal. If it is a ton of dudes, it was important that he knew.

2. Fighter AC isn't that impressive(especially considering it is mostly armor and shield based-brilliant energy is going to being you into hitting range of just about anything. Same thing if you are facing touch attacks). They max out pretty early on. There exist far more ways to boost a player's hit chance than to boost player's ac. Good luck on that being true.
3. It is not a big deal to maintain mind blank all day since it lasts hours/lvl. Craft a ring of invisibility, cast mind blank, and cast overland flight and the fighter will never find you... ever.
4.wow you pull out a bow or a tanglefoot bag and expect to win a fight? 1 of several wind related spells later and you are still losing.
5. yeah archery otherwise known as the big late game loser of this system.

Will is not easy to buff up. It is something a fighter must boost. But even then he is not guaranteed to make his saves.


thepuregamer wrote:
more stuff about playing defensive

You still haven't solved the issue of the wizard being forced to spend a lot of resources and actions on being defensive. Brilliant energy weapon on a minion? Really? Regardless it's still dead almost immediately. Hey, you just gave the fighter a new toy!

And yes, fighter AC CAN be that impressive given the unlimited resources you're allowing the caster in this case (as he has incredibly magical items for fodder.

Overland flight + invis + mind blank. Great. The fighter can't find you, and you can never act aggressively towards him beyond summoning things that he will murder almost immediately. and that only cost you a feat, two high-end spell slots, and 10,000gp. Moot. Or I take one of the half-dozen options that give myself scent, use other feats to counteract the miss chance, and win regardless.

Pulling a bow to win is no less absurd than you thinking the potential of a SoS landing or other 1-trick pony tactics wins. Ranged weapons mean you pay for actions that don't directly hurt your opponent. And sorry, but wind wall, etc. don't utterly negate ranged attacks the way you'd like them to. Because people move.

Your entire premise of "ZOMG wizard always wins" is based upon the wizard having unlimited resources, prep time, and acting many times to the martial character's one, which is apparently to say "herp derp I can't swing at it, phooey." That would be a poor argument.


Dunno what your thoughts on Homebrew are, but there is this little ditty I created a while back...


Phneri wrote:
thepuregamer wrote:
more stuff about playing defensive

You still haven't solved the issue of the wizard being forced to spend a lot of resources and actions on being defensive. Brilliant energy weapon on a minion? Really? Regardless it's still dead almost immediately. Hey, you just gave the fighter a new toy!

And yes, fighter AC CAN be that impressive given the unlimited resources you're allowing the caster in this case (as he has incredibly magical items for fodder.

I don't necessarily think a caster would equip their called critters with brilliant weapons, but they could. a +5 weapon at lvl 20 is 50k(25k crafted). Not as big of a expenditure as you think. And you may find it amusing but a fighter can't actually pump his ac that high. Assuming he pulls all the stops out he can-

get- 14 armor bonus, 7 shield, 5 deflection, 5 natural armor, 7 dex, + a few other bonuses that reduce your hit chance for an armor class bonus close to 50. Take for example another dominated fighter. even a lvl or 2 below 20. 18 bab, 13 str, 6 weapon training, 5 enhancement, 2 morale, 2 focus/gf for 46 before I add in midcombat buffing. Even if you focus on defense, you are only tanking your dpr and still taking hits. Raising hit chance is easier than raising ac.
Phneri wrote:


Overland flight + invis + mind blank. Great. The fighter can't find you, and you can never act aggressively towards him beyond summoning things that he will murder almost immediately. and that only cost you a feat, two high-end spell slots, and 10,000gp. Moot. Or I take one of the half-dozen options that give myself scent, use other feats to counteract the miss chance, and win regardless.

Easy, he can drop imp invisibility on himself in combat at no risk to himself since he is undetectable and go on the offensive 1 turn later. scent is only going to help if they are within 60 ft of each other which is pretty unlikely when the caster is flying. Overland flight is not a high end spell slot(you get 5th lvl spells at 9th or 10th lvl).

Phneri wrote:


Pulling a bow to win is no less absurd than you thinking the potential of a SoS landing or other 1-trick pony tactics wins. Ranged weapons mean you pay for actions that don't directly hurt your opponent. And sorry, but wind wall, etc. don't utterly negate ranged attacks the way you'd like them to. Because people move.

you are overly focused on wind wall which is a powerful defense against archery but hardly the only one. A mid lvl caster could just as easily use a different wind spell. Try out control wind which a druid would use. You can make hurricanes or tornados and simultaneously attack the melee character and stop all archery and you can fly above it or in the eye.

Phneri wrote:


Your entire premise of "ZOMG wizard always wins" is based upon the wizard having unlimited resources, prep time, and acting many times to the martial character's one, which is apparently to say "herp derp I can't swing at it, phooey." That would be a poor argument.

Actually, the fighter is more reliant upon his equipment. If you took magic items away, a caster would have nothing to worry about from a fighter. Caster's have many long duration defenses that last large portions of the day.

I can describe a caster doing twice as many things in a round as a fighter because a caster can quicken spells when he needs to.


thepuregamer wrote:


I don't necessarily think a caster would equip their called critters with brilliant weapons, but they could. a +5 weapon at lvl 20 is 50k(25k crafted).

I stopped reading when you declared you needed your theoretical caster to be level 20 to outmatch the fighter.

Again, your entire argument is depending on your having all the power at your disposal. This is inherently bad.

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