Arg, got it!
Sharesies?
Pretty sure you're not allowed to use the font to imply official sanction from Paizo for third party products, and it's probably not a free font, either.
That being said, what's the name of the font?
Fonts use must be licensed. Purchasing a font is purchasing the license to use it. Saber is Copyright Font Bureau.
Just a head's up guys.
Might want to try this :)
http://www.dafont.com/dark11.font
Ohhhh pretty. It make Pathfinder look nice and spiffy!
C'mon, Zuxius...don't make us search your voluminous robes.
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Fonts use must be licensed. Purchasing a font is purchasing the license to use it. Saber is Copyright Font Bureau.
Just a head's up guys.
With all due respect, this is just plainly inaccurate information. The name of a font is subject to copyright, but the font itself is not capable of protection and is specifically exempted from copyright protection under the Berne treaty.
If it were otherwise, font foundries could attempt to exert a copyright claim on whatever was written with the font. That's not acceptable as a matter of public policy. Accordingly, fonts are specifically exempted from copyright protection. Even if the companies don't like it (and they most assuredly do not). That does not, however, change the law in their favour.
End Result: Fonts are legally fair game, and may be cloned and redistributed without compensation to the author. Font foundries clearly don't like this, but that doesn't change the law.
The reason that fonts are difficult to find online is because the companies that do business in selling fonts spend a VAST amount of their resources to deliberately pollute search engines with literally thousands of interlocking websites to make locating the actual free sources of clones of these fonts very difficult to find. It isn't a stretch to say that font makers' core business model is all about confusing Google and making the "hits" for actual free versions of those fonts extremely hard to find.
The name of a font is capable of protection -- but the font itself? Never.
Very interesting, Steel Wind. I did not know any of that.
Senior Software Developer
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It's been a few years since I worked directly with this stuff, but I think there's room for a tiny bit more clarification about what can be protected. The name of a font can definitely be trademarked. The font file itself is copyrighted since it is software.
The visual appearance of a font is what can't be protected. A free version of a font has been recreated by a designer to look similar to the named font. Foundries will argue that their fonts are superior due to hinting, ligatures, accents, etc., and this used to be the case but I don't know if still is.
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Chief Technical Officer
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The name of a font is subject to copyright, but the font itself is not capable of protection and is specifically exempted from copyright protection under the Berne treaty.
You need to make a distinction between font *designs* and font *files*. You're correct that there's nothing to stop somebody from using somebody else's font *design*, but commercial fonts, like other software, are generally sold under a license that precludes you from redistributing that font file.
Moreover, what you do with the font can be the subject of a trademark. Coca-Cola is notorious for guarding their trademark. I can't cite case number, but I'm pretty sure they have successfully fought others copying the style (read: font) of their logo, based on the final product simply looking too much like theirs, thus giving them grounds for citing brand mis-identification. Their swoop, like Nike's, is a protected Trademark, as is their name, as is (as far as the courts are concerned) the appearance of their name written in their famous font.
In other words, their trademark was found to reach beyond just the name and logo themselves, and into the presentation. Thus, grounds for suit against anybody using the font even for another product.
As far as I understand, the only time anybody has gotten away with it, was when they were parodying Coke.
So, 1. Is the name of the font Saber?
....2. Is there a free clone of it?
....3. Does anyone have a link to it?
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The name of a font is subject to copyright, but the font itself is not capable of protection and is specifically exempted from copyright protection under the Berne treaty.You need to make a distinction between font *designs* and font *files*. You're correct that there's nothing to stop somebody from using somebody else's font *design*, but commercial fonts, like other software, are generally sold under a license that precludes you from redistributing that font file.
In this case Vic, my response was accurate (yes, I am a lawyer and I do work in the copyright field -- though not in the USA).
Copyright is copyright. It is a matter of public law with potentially all the force of the State and the sanction of the criminal law behind it; in the civil arena, copyright includes the right to rely upon statutory remedies and statutory damages. All of that is potentially a very big deal.
License Agreements are a different matter entirely. They are simply a contract and a matter of private law -- not public law -- the breach of which might entitle one party to make a claim in contract against another after proving actual damages. But a license agreement doesn't elevate protection so as to turn a private contractual matter it into a claim for violation of "copyright".
It is a distinction with a HUGE difference. The former is a matter to which the word "illegal" generally attaches in common everyday language, while the other is not.
A few courts in the USA (though in very few other Western countries) have held that the computerized font file may be protected by way of copyright -- but the underlying font, the type face, is not. Any alphabetical font may be scanned, cloned and redistributed without attribution or compensation, provided that the font-name is changed.
Interestingly, the answer is very different for a non-alphabetical font, such as "Wing-Dings", which would appear to be capable of copyright protection as they are not exempt from the convention as a "type-face", per se. This is for the very good reason that they are not intended to represent information and to communicate that information in a "font-independent" form. One is a type-face, while the other is art. Thus, there is no good reason to exempt a Wing-ding from copyright protection on the grounds of public policy and they are covered by the law of copyright.
These are extremely uncomfortable discussions for those in the font foundry business -- and perhaps for those in the publishing business, too. I well appreciate that truth. My point in addressing this here is that, almost inevitably in online forum discussions of this kind, people repeat (and project) what they know and believe about the law of copyright generally and assume it applies to fonts/typefaces.
It doesn't - and that's not an accident or "rogue" ruling by some odd court that is oft-repeated out of context. It is, to the contrary, a specific and deliberate exemption built into the law of copyright throughout most of the industrialized world.
Free clone
Sweet.
Now, does anyone have a fee clone of the font they use for the AP issue names? (Like The Haunting of Harrowstone).
It seems to be similar to Treacherous (You can look at samples on that site), or a mix of the two kinds Treacherous found on that site. (Corners for regular letters, Curves for capital letters)
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Here's a list of more fonts used in Paizo products (from a thread on Enworld):
BaroqueTextJF
CCTreacherous-Curves
CCTreacherous-Corners
JubileeBold, JubileeLight, JubileeMedium
NexusSerifOT, NexusSerifOTBold, NexusSerifOTItalic
NexusSansOT, NexusSansOTBold, NexusSansOTItalic
OlsenTF-Regular
PrioriSerifOTRegular
TimesItalic
Zo
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Chief Technical Officer
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In this case Vic, my response was accurate (yes, I am a lawyer and I do work in the copyright field -- though not in the USA).
I didn't mean to suggest that you were inaccurate—just that you were incomplete. If all the reader had to go on was your post, he might assume that he's allowed to freely redistribute any and all font files he might have, and I'm pointing out that some font licenses don't permit that.
Free cloneSweet.
Now, does anyone have a fee clone of the font they use for the AP issue names? (Like The Haunting of Harrowstone).
It seems to be similar to Treacherous (You can look at samples on that site), or a mix of the two kinds Treacherous found on that site. (Corners for regular letters, Curves for capital letters)
Interesting. I would have thought the base letters for the PF logo were a custom illustration, not based off an existing font. It's very done in either case.
If anyone has links to other clone fonts used in the PF publications, I'd love to check them out. It would be nice to style some of my handouts and whatnot to match up with the official source material everyone is familiar with.
It's been a few years since I worked directly with this stuff, but I think there's room for a tiny bit more clarification about what can be protected. The name of a font can definitely be trademarked. The font file itself is copyrighted since it is software.
The visual appearance of a font is what can't be protected. A free version of a font has been recreated by a designer to look similar to the named font. Foundries will argue that their fonts are superior due to hinting, ligatures, accents, etc., and this used to be the case but I don't know if still is.
There are actually protections for the designs as well. It's VERY uncommon because it's VERY difficult to procure, however a design can be patented (and has been, in a few cases). Steel_Wind, I'm sure I don't have to tell you that design patents in particular seem to vary in the nitty gritty from country to country.
There are in fact three protections available, the one you mentioned (software copyright), the one Steel_wind mentioned (the trademark), and the design patent (unofficial linky)
Regarding foundries and their claims, sometimes it matters, sometimes it doesn't. As a graphic designer, I can tell a HUGE difference when I'm designing something that requires that level of inspection. Also ligatures, auto kerning, etc contribute vastly to readability.
Edit: forgot to mention that I'm referring to US patent laws here. Also no clue what the protections available for Saber are.
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Saber Regular is the Font.
To be exact.
Bought it for 40 bucks in a nice honest way.
I just downloaded it for free in a nice honest way.
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There are in fact three protections available, the one you mentioned (software copyright), the one Steel_wind mentioned (the trademark), and the design patent (unofficial linky)
The law of industrial designs is one which is really not intended for products like fonts at all and resorting to them is impractical for a number of reasons. The most important of which is that it is quite expensive on a transactional basis to register them and the protection afforded by it varies from country to country (USA =fourteen years, Canada =ten years, U.K =10, with extensions to bring it up to 25, etc..).
It's all over the place in terms of requirements, registration fees and remedy provisions, too. The biggest reason you register an Industrial Design is so that you can take advantage of the protection to impound and seize offending imports at the border. That's The Big Stick -- and it's a stick that doesn't work with a computer font zipping along the internet. So... why you are bothering to even do it at that point becomes a bit of a stretch.
But apart from one Helvetica registration in the USA back in the history of time, it's not something which has been used in the Industrial Design sphere as far as I recall. There may have been other attempts recently? I don't know, but I would be very surprised.
The main users of the Industrial Design system are manufacturers of household items whose shape, pattern and ornamental coloring goes in and out of fashion over the course of time, but which, nevertheless, has a valuable presence in the marketplace which lasts for several years at a stretch. Thinking of it as the length of the "fashion cycle" for housewares and home interior decorating would be pretty close to the mark.
The items the Industrial Design registrations are applied to have an underlying functionality which remains unchanged, but the ornamentation, look and coloring varies. Manufacturers of glassware, plates, cutlery, rugs and wallpaper patterns are the typical registrants here. (In fact, a wallpaper pattern is the classic registrant for an Industrial Design, with a dinner plate pattern being classic example #2.)
Anyways - with a discussion of the law of Industrial Designs we've taken a left turn at Albuquerque somewhere.
End Result: Scanned and cloned fonts are okay, provided you change the name of the font; redistributing merely renamed computer font files? Not okay.
I think that's the part of the discussion which people should take away. :)
Industrial Design patents, copyright assertions over underlying computer source code, and trademark registration? Not so much.
But apart from one Helvetica registration in the USA back in the history of time, it's not something which has been used in the Industrial Design sphere as far as I recall. There may have been other attempts recently? I don't know, but I would be very surprised.
According to the Fedora Project, there are about 150 fonts that have design patents (they care because they distribute fonts with the OS. I'm sure many of them needed the clone treatment)
I'm not trying to argue the viability of the protection, just the presence.
But like I said earlier, I doubt anyone's going to give two flips about Some Guy On The Internet using their font in an unintended manner. However, as a side note, I find it very sad that the designs of fonts aren't better protected. Having designed a font for school, I know the intricate pain involved in typography, and consideration should be made.
Wait...people WANT to use Helvetica?
Wait...people WANT to use Helvetica?
The only font awful enough to be the official US Government font of choice. Youbetcha!
*boos, cat-calls and raspberries!*Calling Helvetica "awful" because the US Government uses it on certain documents (tax forms come to mind, but those are "awful" for a different reason) is like calling "all web pages ugly" because you can go to MySpace.com and end up with bleeding eyeballs.
Then again, I'm a font-geek and not ashamed of it. :D
Regards,
-- Andy
I was not suggesting that Helvetica was awful because its uses, rather the other way around.
But perhaps "awful" is too mean a term. Plain-Jane, featureless Helvetica has its uses. It's well designed and does precisely what it needs to do, be boring and straight forward. I've also used it in some applications where it was the perfect fit, so don't get me wrong.
As an aside, my typography professor would often give assignments and say that submissions could be set in any type face, except Helvetica. He wasn't kidding.
Calling Helvetica "awful"...
You know what, you're right.
Truly awful.
There, fixed it for you.
Calling Helvetica "awful"...You know what, you're right.
Truly awful.
There, fixed it for you.
You FONTIST! {sends email to all his students that all classwork must be submitted in Comic Sans}
Too late! They have a style guide that specifies these things, and they've seen me mark down papers in the past for the wrong font.
AHAHAHAHAHAHA!
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For those of you who do make handouts for your players in a Pathfindery manner, what fonts do you use to approximate the look? I think my wife would be pretty pissed if I went and dropped $1000.oo on the "official" fonts that were listed above.
I don't need anything exact, just wanting to get an idea so my players can look at something that has that "Polished Pathfinder" feel to it.
For those of you who do make handouts for your players in a Pathfindery manner, what fonts do you use to approximate the look? I think my wife would be pretty pissed if I went and dropped $1000.oo on the "official" fonts that were listed above.
I don't need anything exact, just wanting to get an idea so my players can look at something that has that "Polished Pathfinder" feel to it.
A free version of Saber was posted for download above.
As far as the other fonts, identification of those would be cool...
Yeah, sorry, I should have stated that I picked up the Sabre...yes, other Pathfindery fonts that wouldn't cost me an arm and a leg would be good to know.Thanks!
Here's a list of more fonts used in Paizo products (from a thread on Enworld):
BaroqueTextJF
CCTreacherous-Curves
CCTreacherous-Corners
JubileeBold, JubileeLight, JubileeMedium
NexusSerifOT, NexusSerifOTBold, NexusSerifOTItalic
NexusSansOT, NexusSansOTBold, NexusSansOTItalic
OlsenTF-Regular
PrioriSerifOTRegular
TimesItalicZo
Times (Time New Roman) should come with most software packages, I seem to recall seeing clones of Jubilee and Treacherous. Not really sure on the others.
You can ...kinda substitute Book Antiqua for Nexus
No good subs for Olsen
Priori is a bit odd, probably won't need it that often
Old English Text is close enough to Baroque (or Black Letter)
There are plenty of good fantasy appropriate type faces distributed with Word. I know office 2007 came with Maiandra, Cambria, Blackadder, Bradley Hand, Californian FB.
Good luck!
After watching the movie about Helvetica last year, I rediscovered a love for that font.
It's Arial that I hate. It's Helvetica Velveeta.
Boo Hiss...
Arial is do bomb! I always change everything to that font!
Go Arial!!!!
-- david
Papa.DRB
After watching the movie about Helvetica last year, I rediscovered a love for that font.
It's Arial that I hate. It's Helvetica Velveeta.
You're both wrong. The truly awfullest font is Courier. *shudders*
You're both wrong. The truly awfullest font is Courier. *shudders*
No, monospace fonts rule!
I would rather see Courier than Hellvetica or Aryal 100x over. Such fonts such your soul out through your eyeballs.
What is the deal with NexusSerifOT? That font costs $282.00 from fontshop.com! Is that because it's only popular with publishers, who are willing to pay such a price?
What is the deal with NexusSerifOT? That font costs $282.00 from fontshop.com! Is that because it's only popular with publishers, who are willing to pay such a price?
Regular only costs [link=http://www.fontshop.com/fonts/singles/fontfont/ff_nexus_serif_ot_regular/]71![/link].
It's a very well designed font. I dig it a lot. If we were in charge of a design project and this font fit the bill, I'd ask the company to spring for it.
Yes, it's priced for corporate consumers.