An ancient Red Dragon at a CR of 19 has an AC of 38, but to a gunslinger within 30 feet (or 60 with the right grit,) that's an AC of 5.
I know that's at the extreme end of the meter, there... but monsters at certain CRs are supposed to have certain ACs (plus or minus based on their type & role,) and if we're mostly discounting the natural armor bonuses for them, are they the CR they're supposed to be?
Part of the reason I'm asking this is that I'm running a steampunk game and three of my players opted to take just one level in gunslinger because of the 'free guns.' Sooner or later, there are going to be big monsters with high natural armor bonuses... which won't do much good against a solid percentage of my party.
P.S. I know there's a thread on whether or not guns are a Tarrasque's nightmare, but that seems to mostly be a discussion on whether or not guns automatically bypass DR, and that seems to have mostly resolved at 'no.'
If you're within 20 feet to use ranged touch, you're also subject to AoOs for making a ranged attack while in the dragon's threatened area. That dragon gets a free bite if you start pointing guns at it.
Deft shootist takes care of that.
We are talking a party powerful enough to fight a red dragon of ancient age.
But yes, at 20 feet, a pistoleer is in melee range of a dragon that big.
If built properly this isnt going to be big deal for a gunslinger (who in his current form is a fighter).
For characters with only one level of gunslinger they are going to be slightly more effective with this gun than a commoner, and I wouldnt worry about it as it's going to be a one shot wonder for a small amount of damage that a cohort wizard of low level could manage to out do with a ray spell (attacking the same ac of 5)
as a cr 19 encounter, this dragon would drop like a sack of potatoes for a party of level 19 characters as the action economy would toast it if it tired to fight them in a pitched battle. (taking into account home town advantage terrain, room to fly or whatever he might last monger, but chances are a dragon this old is going to fight heroes that powerful on their terms)
So this dragon is likely a big baddy for say a team of 14th lvl characters?
So the real question is would a 14th level gunslinger out do a CR 19 dragon, more so than another member of the party?
No.
a Wizard of that level who chose to be a ray specialist would attack the very same AC.
The musket will hit for 1d12+12 say, 4 times. Since we are assuming averages and that the dragon will save vs, the mages spells, we will not assume any critical. (+5 dex, +3 gun training, +2 specialization, +2 magic)
That's 4d12+48 damage.
A wizard with just freezing ray (assuming a cold version of the scorching ray spell) will do 12d6. At that level it could easily be quickened so he will also cast i dunno...lightening bolt. for 14d6.
13d6 is 78 damage halved (for successful save)
96 damage would be max for the gunslinger.
that's max.
Average damage for each would be 39 for the ray (after a save) and 72 for the gunslinger.
But what's more likely a crit? or the dragon failing his save vs, the damage? tough call.
You also have to figure the gunslinger needs to be alot closer to the dragon to make his work (otherwise hes back to hitting the normal ac) and on something more mobile like a dragon, thats alot less likely to happen, so you would have to average that in, on top of him burning up what is a really limited pool like grit to do it.
If he closes close enough he is in AoO land, unless he had both deft shootist and lightening reload as signature deeds, in which case he is built to do what he is doing.
so no I dont think it changes the power of the dragon. the gunslinger has to get close and stay close to affect that AC.
Question is , can he drill the dragon fast enough before the dragon can out maneuver him or kill him? and his he better than a magus trying to do the same thing (with touch spells hitting that same ac 5?) or a fighter or a wizard?
thats what I would do, build 4 level 14 characters. A fighter, a Magus, A gunslinger and a Wizard or maybe a Witch (she has some healing) but for the purposes of a single fight, maybe the healing is not THAT important....
Test it out and see what happens, you will have three characters capable of attacking that dragons touch AC (theoretically, if he lets them) but only the full caster can do it at any considerable range. the gunslinger and the magus, have to do it in range of ALL the dragons attacks, the caster can do it out of range of all the dragons attacks (except spells).
Needless to say, the guns "affects touch ac" is very situational, especially when considering something like a dragon..a golem? a giant? maybe less worrisome as they dont have a dragons mobility, but a CR 19 giant isnt something Id want to be that close to either.
It would have to be played out.
a Wizard of that level who chose to be a ray specialist would attack the very same AC.
And deal with SR. And spell abilities - like Spell-Turning. And that's not discounting the rays that are fire.
Also with only one level, their guns will only do minimum damage...
Well with money, everything can be overcome. :) When they whip out the Pistol +5, Shocking/Frost/Corrosive/Holy and combine that with Deadly Aim, Weapon Specialization, and a variety of other feats, who gives a crap what the base damage is!?
<Rant>
I do know that Guns (if I allow them at all) will NOT be a ranged touch attack in my game...EVER.
There is NO reason that a gun would affect something with a +30 Natural Armor bonus the same as it would a naked person. I don't care how close you are.
All this will lead to is the situation the OP presented, people taking a level of Gunslinger to get the free gun and the illogical rules that go with them.
I suppose it is an attempt to make them on par with a good archer style fighter or a axe wielding barbarian, but in doing so, they turned all the rules for ranged attacks on their heads.
If they want to half the armor bonus or ignore artificial armor, I think that would be better, but man...the rules as written just irk me (as if you couldn't tell).
</Rant>
All that being said, My favorable view of Paizo is still 99+% and everything BUT the rules for the firearms is golden.
Also with only one level, their guns will only do minimum damage...
Well with money, everything can be overcome. :) When they whip out the Pistol +5, Shocking/Frost/Corrosive/Holy and combine that with Deadly Aim, Weapon Specialization, and a variety of other feats, who gives a crap what the base damage is!?
<Rant>
I do know that Guns (if I allow them at all) will NOT be a ranged touch attack in my game...EVER.There is NO reason that a gun would affect something with a +30 Natural Armor bonus the same as it would a naked person. I don't care how close you are.
All this will lead to is the situation the OP presented, people taking a level of Gunslinger to get the free gun and the illogical rules that go with them.
I suppose it is an attempt to make them on par with a good archer style fighter or a axe wielding barbarian, but in doing so, they turned all the rules for ranged attacks on their heads.
If they want to half the armor bonus or ignore artificial armor, I think that would be better, but man...the rules as written just irk me (as if you couldn't tell).
</Rant>All that being said, My favorable view of Paizo is still 99+% and everything BUT the rules for the firearms is golden.
yes but the range increments are so short it's practically point blank, as I've pointed out, situational at best.
In order for a gun to be a "gun" it would either have to be something that did ridiculous damage, or something 'armor' piercing, the devs went with armor pierce as most things on the other side of armor don't have alot of HPs except for heroes and big bads.
Modern guns are going to out do anything you can argue, swords, bows whatever. which is why they are all in use today.
The blackpowder version is only good at 10 to 20 feet and anything beyond that it's so so spiffy.
What keeps a dragon from simply disarming that gun seeing as he has to be so darn close to use it to by pass armor.
Most game combats happen within 50 feet, longbowmen rarely get the huge advantage their range gives in most encounters.
If outside, however, the bow man and the wizard are likely going to do the most damage with the gunslinger coming in after and the fighter well, probably picking up a bow too.
As soon as this dragon takes flight, the gunslinger isnt going to see his nifty armor piercing.
also depending on the scenario the party might never get that close.
But assuming that this is like most encounters in any game, at takes place within 50 feet. The party runs huge risk of everyone getting affected by his breath, so close quarters is bad for both sides.
The gun has to be represented as something other than a different kind of crossbow.
but another poster brought up a very good point. Your party all started out as 1st level gunslingers and then multiclassed from there?
Because if they were something else first, the gun didn't just materialize.
At higher level a 1500 gun isnt that big of a deal, but it doesn't come from nowhere either.
gunslingers are way better at gunslinging than anything else with a dip into it, so even if they took the time to spend getting good with a gun with other feats, then they take away from whatever else they have a class in, this could result in munchkin rule breaking, or a mish mosh mess, thats not really good at anything.
seeing as there is really one way to make any munchkin type character (over min max) that means everyone is going to be the same?
No, I doubt that, I'd personally expect they all wasted a level taking that dip.
Besides, you cant weapon specialize, you are high enough level as a gunslinger, and you can't multiclass into fighter since gunslinger is a fighter (although i suspect somehow this will change)
However, I would be interested to see how said dragon would fair against an actual high level gunslinger in a properly built party and whether he is really any better at this than the other classes.
I suspect with any luck the dragon will stay out of his range, forcing the gunslinger to do alot of held actions to see if the dragon tries swooping or flybys, and perhaps the wizard cast fly on the gunslinger?
At any case, the party will spend alot of time and effort trying to get (and keep) the gunslinger in short range. Which may or may not be worth it.
Maybe someone with a lot of time on their hands, who is goo at this arena style combat simulation, like yeungling could do a party with a wizard, cleric, fighter, and rogue vs. the dragon and another with a wizard, cleric, gunslinger, and rogue vs. the dragon, could chime in and give us some actual results?
Unlike the gunslinger, the wizard is no one trick pony. For balance, the gunslinger should be the best 30 ft damagedealer against armored but slow foes - this is exactly his role.
Many people seem to think that a character, who is good at one thing (like DPR against a special type of foes) beats every other character.
What if the final enemy is some kind of air elemental thing with very high touch AC? Or say just an enemy who is not extremely focused on flat footed AC? Even if it is the dragon, the combination of buffs, battlefield control and damage spells could make the wizard far superior. The paladin smites the (supposedly evil) dragon and the ranger has him as his favorite enemy while the bow fighter gets a lot of attacks and stuff.
As for the basic question of the thread - the CR and gunfighters - you can always find a character who is optimized for a special foe and vice versa but you can´t adjust the CR to any combination.
One may argue that gunslingers are broken for some reason but this cannot be shown with one extreme example - it needs a lot of experience based of a lot of different situations
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Touch AC guns are a flaw in the new gun rules. A red dragon of AC 5 and an iron golem of AC 8... come on. Something is just not jiving properly here. Remove that Touch AC thing and replace with pickleshooting (full attack with one bullet, total all damages, then apply the creature's DR and energy resistances only ONCE)
There. :)
Am I missing something here? Can you even get a full attack option with a firearm? It seems that since the capacity is 1, the Full attack option is moot as per Purple Dragon's comment above.
The gunslinger could do this maybe twice a round at most, am I right?
Touch AC guns are a flaw in the new gun rules. A red dragon of AC 5 and an iron golem of AC 8... come on. Something is just not jiving properly here. Remove that Touch AC thing and replace with pickleshooting (full attack with one bullet, total all damages, then apply the creature's DR and energy resistances only ONCE)
There. :)
Touch ACs are already part of already printed rules however, so they aren't going away.
Am I missing something here? Can you even get a full attack option with a firearm? It seems that since the capacity is 1, the Full attack option is moot as per Purple Dragon's comment above.
The gunslinger could do this maybe twice a round at most, am I right?
Your obviously not up to speed on the gunslinger or pickleshooting
At the Cr level we are talking about a RAW gunslinger could easily full attack by using signature deed lightening reload.
Touch ACs are already part of already printed rules however, so they aren't going away.Touch AC guns are a flaw in the new gun rules. A red dragon of AC 5 and an iron golem of AC 8... come on. Something is just not jiving properly here. Remove that Touch AC thing and replace with pickleshooting (full attack with one bullet, total all damages, then apply the creature's DR and energy resistances only ONCE)
There. :)
Printed rules for one setting book, for that game world
They have not yet been printed as Core Rules for the Pathfinder RPG... YET.
.................
I agree tho, from what the designer posted, it looks like the guns rules are going to be reprinted.
Which is unfortunate, as they have a chance to change the rules to something better, before making them Core Pathfinder.
Am I missing something here? Can you even get a full attack option with a firearm? It seems that since the capacity is 1, the Full attack option is moot as per Purple Dragon's comment above.
The gunslinger could do this maybe twice a round at most, am I right?
Your obviously not up to speed on the gunslinger or pickleshooting
At the Cr level we are talking about a RAW gunslinger could easily full attack by using signature deed lightening reload.
The following is just a point to help you along in everyday social navigation. If someone is asking a question, it might be because they missed something along the way, there is quite honestly no need to condescend.
In any case your answer was helpful. Many thanks.
The flaw stems from trying to simulate armor penetration in a game where armor is binary (it either applies or it does not). The rules just do not support the idea that some weapons penetrate armor better than others.
The whole "Touch AC guns" thing just doesn't work right. Early firearms should follow the same rules regarding AC as crossbows. While better at armor penetration than many crossbows, they generally lacked in accuracy so it balances out.
Pickelshooting (cute name) is a wonderful solution for a different problem (inability to make iterative attacks/low damage output). However increased damage =/= increased armor penetration. It would be an equally clumsy solution.
Honestly, the armor penetration issue isn't really an issue until you get to more modern firarms which are much more accurate at longer ranges due to more powerful propellants (nitrocellulose aka gun cotton > gun aka black powder). At that point I would suggest reversing the way range increments work for firearms. Instead of increasing penalty for each range increment from 0 for the closest, have a decreasing bonus with 0 at the maximum range increment. This simulates greater chance to penetrate armor at closer ranges with weapons designed to be more accurate than bows/crossbows/early firearms at long range.
Also if you look at armor from the 16th-17th century, around the time of the conquistadors to Crowmell's revolution, you very likely will see a dent in the armor from where the armorsmith tested the breastplate by firing a pistol at short range.
A crossbow still penetrated much better at that point in history. The Pathfinder rules 'period' is ambiguous, and reality really shouldn't matter. That said, I find this vaunted power of firearms lacking within a full fledged fantasy world.
I had a paladin who fired a starwheel pistol at a Dragon Turtle. Sure it hit, but it did not do much damage and he couldn't reload it in time to use it again that battle. One level of Gunslinger is going to be about the same.
As I've said before, I don't think anyone who is worried about the gunslinger walking up to things an blasting them point blank is really going to unsettle the game that much, as in theory it would, but in actual use, it's hard to keep that character in that range an blasting away.
As previously pointed out this type of character is heavy on the feat tax and not too heavy on feats (or deeds), so there is a lot of other stuff it can't do.
In that respect it is more feat starved than a two weapon fighter trying to specialize in both weapons.
However on another note, I think the spell "shield" so be able to apply it's ac value against guns because it's not actually armor, but a "force" shield.
In that respect I suppose the great wyrm could cast wall of force and cast from the other side of it?
I know shield is only going to add 4 ac and not make a difference for something as big as a dragon, but would for humanoids with high dex, especially at lower levels.
As I've said before, I don't think anyone who is worried about the gunslinger walking up to things an blasting them point blank is really going to unsettle the game that much, as in theory it would, but in actual use, it's hard to keep that character in that range an blasting away.
As previously pointed out this type of character is heavy on the feat tax and not too heavy on feats (or deeds), so there is a lot of other stuff it can't do.
In that respect it is more feat starved than a two weapon fighter trying to specialize in both weapons.
However on another note, I think the spell "shield" so be able to apply it's ac value against guns because it's not actually armor, but a "force" shield.
In that respect I suppose the great wyrm could cast wall of force and cast from the other side of it?
I know shield is only going to add 4 ac and not make a difference for something as big as a dragon, but would for humanoids with high dex, especially at lower levels.
Shield is personal. Not the size of a normal person. It would protect all of Tiamat from Magic Missiles.
If you meant the +4 wouldn't count for much, try protection from arrows. That really nerfs guns a lot.
thats what i meant the +4 wouldnt count for much, but yea there you go, protection from arrows poof.
Of course that doesn't work for magic bullets, now does it?
Cast magic weapon on the bullets.
Let the spellcasters participate. :)
Who really is going to pay to have masterwork bullets made and then get them enchanted?thats what i meant the +4 wouldnt count for much, but yea there you go, protection from arrows poof.
Of course that doesn't work for magic bullets, now does it?
The same people that make magic arrows
I removed a couple posts. Be civil, please.
So you never find magic arrows in any campaign you've been in?
They are practically the first magic item in almost every situation a party finds. Magic arrows are just as disposable as magic bullets, so sling bullets, or magic darts ( I specifically remember 'darts of the hornets nest' from 1E)
not to mention you could just cast magic weapon on 50 rounds of ammo.
Or would you just let a simple spell like protection from arrows stymie all your parties ranged attacks and get killed instead and never be able to retire with all your hoarded wealth?
Well, okay, to be fair I Did say the dragon was an extreme example, and yeah, a dragon is dangerous by definition. The maxome foe, one might say.
But for a better example, my players are level 3 and have been fighting the vermin pets of an elite tribe of gremlins. An ant drone has an AC of 19, but against a gunner, it's only 12.
I have to wonder how much of a giant scorpion's CR comes from its AC? It goes from 16 to 9 against a close range gun.
It's quite possible that I'm worrying too much about the kind of stuff that evens itself out, and it's even more possible that my relatively math-anxiety-prone brain hasn't thought out the average damage ratios. It is true that a wizard/sorc/alchemist etc does do that kind of touch-AC stuff all the time...
At any rate, thanks for pointing out the 20' range increment of the pistol. I kept thinking it was, like, 30.'
As for my players and the single gunslinger level... most of them think the class, so far, doesn't have anything to recommend itself with over level 1.
Well you play in the land of magi-marts and we don't. So it's a different experience.
For the most part we make do with what we discover. if we enchant something, it's along the lines of storyline stuff, like we can't defeat the BBEG without a dagger dipped in dragon dung with the corrosive ability, so we either quest for it if it already exists, or have to quest to get the same of it's parts and have it made.
We dont however save up cash to dump our +3 sword for a +4 sword.
And if the entire worlds economy was based on magical ammo was worthless, and the general consensus was it was only worth selling off to get more money, who exactly would you sell magical ammo to? Are you going to buy it?? If not why would the next guy want to buy it? IF someone else is buying it, it must be useful.
Scolls and wands are expendable too, and are just spell ammo, +1 bullets are a lot less expensive of a way of getting past a dragon with protection from arrows, than a scroll of dispel magic against a dragon will spell resistance and a saving throw, where such a spell might not even work.
The gold issue should be irrelevant here, seeing as if you actually beat the dragon, there is going to be plenty of it to go around.
I get tired of people trying to push the video game economics on these boards. It gets old.
Well, okay, to be fair I Did say the dragon was an extreme example, and yeah, a dragon is dangerous by definition. The maxome foe, one might say.
But for a better example, my players are level 3 and have been fighting the vermin pets of an elite tribe of gremlins. An ant drone has an AC of 19, but against a gunner, it's only 12.
I have to wonder how much of a giant scorpion's CR comes from its AC? It goes from 16 to 9 against a close range gun.
It's quite possible that I'm worrying too much about the kind of stuff that evens itself out, and it's even more possible that my relatively math-anxiety-prone brain hasn't thought out the average damage ratios. It is true that a wizard/sorc/alchemist etc does do that kind of touch-AC stuff all the time...
At any rate, thanks for pointing out the 20' range increment of the pistol. I kept thinking it was, like, 30.'
As for my players and the single gunslinger level... most of them think the class, so far, doesn't have anything to recommend itself with over level 1.
What you are explaining is exactly how guns work. (or worked)
"mighty knights" we laid low by commoners with a popgun.Samurai no longer exist because the emperor pulled men from rice fields and gave them fire arms.
But no matter how 'powerful' the current gun is, it has chances to break and misfire as well as have huge reload issues at lower level, all are balancing things back out. Which is why designers put those features there I think.
Where your players come in at, with a level of gunslinger spammed across the party, is mad metagamming. However: I don't know what your party level is, but let's say they are fighting these drones and they are level 5?
So now we have a level 4 wizard/level 1 gunslinger for example.
Now I have one shot with a gun every other round instead of third level spells? Seems stupid, I should think lightening bolt would be more useful against a large amount of ant drones than one shot from a gun.
The cleric with one level of gun fighter has given up 1d6 energy channel.
The rogue 1d6 in sneak attack, the fighter can't take a level of gunslinger, I might take a level of gunslinger if I was a magus just to build a different kind of magus? but then it wouldnt synergize well without alot of feat spending.
So as far as I see it, you have really allowed your part to gimp themselves.
Either that or you are letting them shoot guns every round (which is what i think you are doing) read those gun rules closer, unless your level 1 gunslingers all have rapid reload (which means they burned a level AND a feat) it's a standard action to reload... with rapid it's a move, with lightening reload (TWO FEATS now) it's a free action but how much wisdom do they have?
Im curious why they didnt just spend the feat for amateur gunslinger? 1 level of gunslinger is such a poor dip just for a few lousy gold pieces of gun.
Even if one of your players was a full gunslinger (again consider 5th)
He would look something like this (we dont play with wealth by level but...) my feats (im human) are going to be:
Two weapon fighting, rapid reload, quick draw, weapon juggle (feat from advanced alchemist options pdf) and point blank shot.
Lets assume I have a +3 dex mod and 3 grit points.
Opening round against ant drone lets say im at 40 feet, Using dead eye I shoot my pistols (of which I have 6) Im shooting with both, against a touch AC of 12, Im +9 to hit (but -4 because im with weapon fighting with one handed weapons) so +5, Im going to hit mostly likely because of the fact I only need to roll 7. I'll do 1d8+4, twice.
The normal archer in the group will have to hit an AC of 19 with his bow and thus have to roll (assuming a full BAB class with similar stats) an 11 or better, with rapid shot he can manage about the same 1d8+4, twice.
The difference between the gunslinger and the archer is +4 attack bonus (essentially).
Next round ant moves up, If I want to full attack I can only 5 foot step, so we are at 15 feet now. I juggle and quick draw, giving me two new guns and fire. Same drill as before, Likely I hit. 1d8+4, twice.
Archer is the same, but he can be much farther away and not have to move, the gunslinger is in the thick of it.
Next round ant is on the gunslinger. This gets tricky, because whats the ants reach? how big is it? if its only medium I can 5 foot step and shoot again, I dont have deft shootist so I provoke by shooting.
If I kept jogging along and keeping the any at range I would have been down to one attack per round and eventually run out of grit to spend on dead eye (and then im attacking normal ac) but trying to play the 20 foot range game with something with a 30 move? REALLY hard.
Fact is your opening yourself to attacks, your in melee range trying to use a ranged weapon, and the 5th level gunsligner is going to shoot alot more times than the level dip character as I just showed you.
So is the +4 to hit (in this situation) worth the AoO? You be the judge.
In the case of a dragon I am going to have a hard time hitting? Im higher level, I have more hit points... I dunno a dragons AoO is going to hurt alot more, but chances are by then Ive got singature deed deft shootist. (two feats) so I dont provoke. But even then Im still going to run out of reloads...its not as unbalancing as you think if you actually play it out.
Absurdly expensive guns are unplayable.
Guns get stolen, and then resold for less.
There is also gunrunners.
http://www.google.com/search?q=gun+runners+history&rls=com.microsoft:en -us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&rlz=1I7RN SN_en#q=gun+runners+history&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&rlz=1 I7RNSN_en&prmd=ivns&tbs=tl:1&tbo=u&ei=a3ZtTf6LEoSdlgfhxPjcB A&sa=X&oi=timeline_result&ct=title&resnum=11&ved=0CFwQ5 wIwCg&bav=on.1,or.&fp=42ea6e12edc6080
Magic ammo is talking about the whole "CR" thing.
In the OPs example, with an ancient dragon, the gun will be attacking his ac of 5.
Which said ammo is stopped by "protection from arrows", magic bullets negates that (so back to the AC 5 thing).
With one level of gunslinger, I doubt they are going to invest much in guns.
So casting magic weapon on a stack of bullets is probably the way to go. (either that or getting 50 bullets magic'd up.
Doesn't make much sense to sink the money into a weapon that, because you only have one level of gunslinger in, you can't reload or shoot too often, now does it?
although, if the protection of arrows thing rears it's ugly head somewhere in the course of adventuring, the cost of a +1 pistol isn't entirely overwhelming, but then each character would need one, and you'd still be using it to fight like a 1st level gunslinger (extra BAB is a moot point since it only has an AC of 5 in this instance.)
For how often and how many shots these characters with one level of gunslinger use these weapons, the magic ammo and splitting it up makes alot more sense.
If you're talking 14th level gunslinger going up with his party against the dragon in question, yea hes probably got magic guns.