So my last two characters were average BAB characters, but they were melee and low level, but I have to say I felt very ineffective since I wasn't hitting hardly at all. Now I know that these classes have other things to offer, but my problem with them at low levels is that if you wanna melee with them (and I do) you just aren't that good at it.
And one of the characters had the cheesey heirloom weapon trait.
Or maybe I just had s*%~ty rolls.
But at least with a fighter or such you have higher BAB and with sorcerers you either make them make a saving throw or target touch ac.
Anyone else have this problem? I'm a little depressed that these more flavorful classes as I see them just aren't doing it for me anymore.
RPG Superstar 2013
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I think you need experience building and playing. I freely admit I dont know about your build or how long you've been playing. But I do know if I want to make a great melee combatant out of a cleric BAB, I can. Clerics, rogues and the like are great fighters. Inquisitors, battle oracles, alchemists, eidolons, ninja. They can all be effective and reqarding in combat.
So how can we help get you there?
Are we talking 3/4 BAB progression (Clerics, Druids, etc)?
Then if so that's to be expected. The 3/4 BAB classes should lag behind in terms of hit bonus and dpr unless they are really heavily buffed.
Invariably you need to make sure that your to hit bonus is supplemented by a good strength of dexterity (if using finesse). Buffs help but only so much.
I find that for low levels at least maximizing your to hit bonus through charges and flanking go a real long way towards improving your effectiveness in battle. Against high AC foes though you might be better served using an Aid Another action to boost the to hit bonus of the fighter types though.
So my last two characters were average BAB characters, but they were melee and low level, but I have to say I felt very ineffective since I wasn't hitting hardly at all. Now I know that these classes have other things to offer, but my problem with them at low levels is that if you wanna melee with them (and I do) you just aren't that good at it.
And one of the characters had the cheesey heirloom weapon trait.
Or maybe I just had s~*!ty rolls.
But at least with a fighter or such you have higher BAB and with sorcerers you either make them make a saving throw or target touch ac.
Anyone else have this problem? I'm a little depressed that these more flavorful classes as I see them just aren't doing it for me anymore.
At low levels your base attack bonus doesn't matter nearly as much as your other modifiers like strength, masterwork, weapon focus, and flanking. The difference between a 1st level Rogue's chance to hit with a weapon and a 1st level Fighters is only +1 (5%). And remains only a 5% chance right through 4th level (where you have a +3 to hit and they have a +4), and they only begin pulling ahead at 5th+ level.
Also, if you feel Heirloom weapon is cheesy, then I'm not sure your comprehension of the game is quite where you want it yet. A +2 bonus to hit at 1st level is nice, but again it's only a 5% difference over a normal masterwork weapon; which means at 1st level the fighter with an heirloom weapon has a +15% more chance to hit, all things being equal; which is nice but far from astounding (he invested 1/2 of his limited traits on this, and frankly it's not that good).
What medium BAB class were you playing? In core there is the cleric, druid, bard, and rogue. All of them are good at a number of things, and the cleric, druid, and bard are some of the best classes in the game; and rogues can be built to be quite deadly.
Got more info? Ability scores, feats, traits, etc?
Tell us more about your characters, we'll help you make them into killers.
I would also point out that the full BAB class are probably at their most powerful (relative to other classes) at levels 1-5.
I honestly would eliminate Average BAB completely if I could. Have only Good and Poor BAB along with Good and Poor Saves.
While in theory I could get behind martial = full BAB, casters = poor BAB that kinda eliminates the partial caster category (bards, magus, inquisitor). You'd either need to lower them down to paladin/ranger delayed progression or bump them up to full caster status. I'm not sure the game needs more full casters.
But full caster, 3/4 BAB is a bad design IMHO, I'd rather the cleric, oracle and druid be 1/2 BAB like a wizard and then give them better spell access or other buffs to bring them to arcane full caster power level.
As to saves I'm not a fan of poor saves in general.
I almost always play in low level games (e.g. levels 1-7), so I don't notice a huge difference between a full BAB PC focused on melee and a 3/4 BAB PC focused on melee. I have have felt "let down" by 3/4 BAB PCs who aren't focused on melee, though (e.g. a cleric with 12 Strength or something like that).
So my last two characters were average BAB characters, but they were melee and low level, but I have to say I felt very ineffective since I wasn't hitting hardly at all. Now I know that these classes have other things to offer, but my problem with them at low levels is that if you wanna melee with them (and I do) you just aren't that good at it.
And one of the characters had the cheesey heirloom weapon trait.
Or maybe I just had s&&!ty rolls.
But at least with a fighter or such you have higher BAB and with sorcerers you either make them make a saving throw or target touch ac.
Anyone else have this problem? I'm a little depressed that these more flavorful classes as I see them just aren't doing it for me anymore.
Which ones were you playing? Just curious as that may have a good deal to do with your success. I could see class selection and strategy making a big impact on melee sucess here. If you go cleric and choose not to memorize bless, divine favor, or magic weapon you may be limiting your potential melee wise. The same as the the rogue who dosent have the chance or make use of flanking opportunites. Starting this weekend I am playing an inquisitor, from what I have seen of the other characters I am 1 attack bonus off the other (full BAB) front line guy at 1st level so mostly its gonna be dice rolls as to whether I sink or swim. In my OPINION that 3.X dice rolls are far more relevant at lower levels than at mid to high level, that randomness could be impacting your enjoyment a good bit. I am sure a statistician can prove of disprove that to be honest i kinda of want to see the math to see if the dice roll becomes less relevant as you level up but that is a different topic.
I think you need experience building and playing. I freely admit I dont know about your build or how long you've been playing. But I do know if I want to make a great melee combatant out of a cleric BAB, I can. Clerics, rogues and the like are great fighters. Inquisitors, battle oracles, alchemists, eidolons, ninja. They can all be effective and reqarding in combat.
So how can we help get you there?
Not the case. Been playing 10+ years and really haven't had a problem til now.
Like I said maybe just s~$!ty rolls.
As for ashiel, I think heirloom weapon is cheesey since you get a free weapon masterwork with an extra +1 to atk. That's better than weapon focus (almost since its one specific weapon). The real reason I think its cheesey is that I can see every powergamer playing a melee class taking it.
As for my characters, one was a blind oracle (so I had to me melee but I took an archetype from Super Genius since the mysteries didn't fit my character concept) and the second one was a magus.
Ability scores, the magus had weapon finesse and an 18 dex, so that wasn't a problem.
I DON'T NEED HELP with these classes and making them effective. Not a problem there. The question is whether other people have had these problems.
To clarify, I will use an example. If I ask you this question on a test, specifically "have you had problems with avg BAB characters in melee?" And you answer "this is how you should play it." You just failed, cause you didn't answer the question given. I'm happy with my playstyle and have been effective with it since I've been playing, so I don't need help there. Otherwise I would have asked for it. Not b&~$~ing just letting y'all know. :-) like I said just looking for others that have had that problem.
And like I said it may have just been really s*+$ty rolls. (If you knew me, if I ever take any negatives in game, even a -1, I usually roll the worst possible result. Just my luck I guess.)
@Steven T. Helt
Wasn't attacking you or anything brother, just reitterating that I'm good on builds. Just was wondering if its just bad rolls or if its a problem with the BAB and the class in general.
I usually play fighters or sorcerers. Also, I believe that although some may be able to judge a classes effectiveness by looking at it, you have to at least play the class a bit to truely see just how effective it truely is.
I haven't found this problem at all. I've played a Bard, Rogue and an Inquisitor and been very effective in melee at low levels. I was able to keep up with the fighter for the most part using class features and buffs. The Inquisitor by far was the best in melee combat though.
I had that same problem in the old days (pre-pathfinder) but that's because I wasn't good at making optimized characters. On the other hand, my characters tended to have a deeper, richer background....
Damn, optimization DOES have down-sides, it seems...:p
I had that same problem in the old days (pre-pathfinder) but that's because I wasn't good at making optimized characters. On the other hand, my characters tended to have a deeper, richer background....
Damn, optimization DOES have down-sides, it seems...:p
I always optimize my characters but I do give them very detailed backgrounds. Just the inner role player in my blood. I don't wanna just roll dice.
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I DON'T NEED HELP with these classes and making them effective. Not a problem there. The question is whether other people have had these problems.
I have had 3/4 BaB characters that were poor in melee. Usually because I didn't build them not to be. I have had 3/4 BaB characters taht were good in melee. Usually because I built them to be so.
::shrug::
Guess I don't see the point of the thread if the OP really only wants to run it as a poll, but okay.
As for ashiel, I think heirloom weapon is cheesey since you get a free weapon masterwork with an extra +1 to atk. That's better than weapon focus (almost since its one specific weapon). The real reason I think its cheesey is that I can see every powergamer playing a melee class taking it.
I question the quality of your power gamers then. A masterwork weapon for a trait is kinda "meh", and really the only real reason to take the trait is because you can get a +1 trait bonus with that weapon, meaning that you'll always be 5% better at hitting with your heirloom weapon, all things being equal.
The problem is it really doesn't do much for you, and it has to be a relatively mundane masterwork weapon; so no cold iron or adamantine for you. Your weapon gets broken, and you're out a trait (*cough*shatter*cough*) and a weapon. It's really not very good.
Also, Reactionary (+2 Init) is a better trait because it's pretty good regardless of what your weapon is. Sword of Mercy is a great one because it gives you a +1 to damage with all slashing weapons and allows you to hit for nonlethal damage without penalties, making it more useful than heirloom weapon, IMHO.
I DON'T NEED HELP with these classes and making them effective. Not a problem there. The question is whether other people have had these problems.
To clarify, I will use an example. If I ask you this question on a test, specifically "have you had problems with avg BAB characters in melee?" And you answer "this is how you should play it." You just failed, cause you didn't answer the question given. I'm happy with my playstyle and have been effective with it since I've been playing, so I don't need help there. Otherwise I would have asked for it. Not b%~@*ing just letting y'all know. :-) like I said just looking for others that have had that problem.
And like I said it may have just been really s#~#ty rolls. (If you knew me, if I ever take any negatives in game, even a -1, I usually roll the worst possible result. Just my luck I guess.)
No.
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A Magus with Dex 18 and Weapon Finesse? Mmmkay.
Fniper, you basically assume that your own system mastery cannot be a problem, so the issue lies either with crap rolls or poorly designed classes.
That's a poor assumption, because what will happen is that everybody will tell you that classes are fine, you will arrive at conclusion that it's the damned luck, and the truth MIGHT be (altho the Oracle with 3PP material instead of just Battle Oracle and WF Magus kind of point me that it IS) that your optimization mojo isn't as strong as you think it is.
I play D&D since, duh, 1992 and I still do silly, stupid mistakes while designing my characters or NPCs.
I play D&D since, duh, 1992 and I still do silly, stupid mistakes while designing my characters or NPCs.
I have been playing since 1981 and still make those silly stupid mistakes.
Heck 90% of the time if I bring up that someone mis-stepped using a rule or something its because I have been there and made that mistake (because of edition changes, erratta, flat misreading it myself, whatever) and want others to avoid making the same error I did.
I play D&D since, duh, 1992 and I still do silly, stupid mistakes while designing my characters or NPCs.Heck, sometimes it's not even a mistake - sometimes people just choose something non-optimal because it fits their concept or sounds fun to play. :)
Burn the Heretic!
Optimization Uber Alles ;)
I play D&D since, duh, 1992 and I still do silly, stupid mistakes while designing my characters or NPCs.Heck, sometimes it's not even a mistake - sometimes people just choose something non-optimal because it fits their concept or sounds fun to play. :)
No that is optimizing in a different way. ;)
As my Inquisitor is using his great grandfathers elven curve blade
(Yea I took the sub optimal heirloom weapon for my character).
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I play D&D since, duh, 1992 and I still do silly, stupid mistakes while designing my characters or NPCs.Heck, sometimes it's not even a mistake - sometimes people just choose something non-optimal because it fits their concept or sounds fun to play. :)No that is optimizing in a different way. ;)
As my Inquisitor is using his great grandfathers elven curve blade
(Yea I took the sub optimal heirloom weapon for my character).
Well, yes. In fact, that's usually how I optimize so I can scratch my optimization itch and not annoy anyone else. :) Another good way to choose to optimize your ability to buff everyone else. Then the other players all love you. :)
Wasn't attacking you or anything brother, just reitterating that I'm good on builds. Just was wondering if its just bad rolls or if its a problem with the BAB and the class in general.
Unfortunately, none of your given options is the valid answer. The correct answer is the one you ruled out.
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So my last two characters were average BAB characters, but they were melee and low level, but I have to say I felt very ineffective since I wasn't hitting hardly at all. Now I know that these classes have other things to offer, but my problem with them at low levels is that if you wanna melee with them (and I do) you just aren't that good at it.
Anyone else have this problem? I'm a little depressed that these more flavorful classes as I see them just aren't doing it for me anymore.
I will certainly agree that at low levels a 3/4 class feels like you aren't hitting at all. Now granted my experience is mainly PFS, but in my opinion it isn't a problem. The scenarios I have played all tend to have baddies with relatively high AC. The average 3/4 character will have +4 or +5 to hit at level one. Many times we would be up against a character wearing plate mail. That's 19 or 20 AC (depending on dex). When you've only got a 25-35% chance to hit, it just feels like you aren't contributing
The thing is, it gets much better quickly. A level 4 baddie is going to have at most 1 more AC while you've gained +3 to hit. 10% better chance to hit! A full BAB class will be hitting a bit more often (10% better chance at level 5, all else being equal) but like you said, they just don't have as many options of things to do - both in and out of combat
To put it another way, if you want to be a deathdealing melee machine, a full BAB is of course going to be better. If you want lots of neat tricks in exchange for a smaller contribution in melee, 3/4 does good.
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I felt pretty disapointed with an NPC bard I made. It was designed as a back up healer and buffer with a charisma 16. It did the job it was built for well, but it wasn't great in melee.
The alchemist in the party does just fine. It's not particularly optimised, is a halfling with weapon finess. With mutogens, potions and bombs it does very well in tactical situations, but has to pick its fights.
The fighter has bad die rolls... Its very disapointing for the player as its made as the main damage dealer for the party.
The paladin is the most defensive PC. Designed for AC it isn't a great damage dealer, but with smite is very soild.
I like melee, so I find 3/4 BAB characters can be disapointing as they normally have a different focus when I design them, but poor rolls can make a character suck as demonstrated by the fighter...
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The thing is with out class and stat. There is no way to find the problem your talking about. Saying you make good characters realy dose not help your point. At this point I think it's build and not dice. Untill I know more thats how it stands.
Any half way good optimizer. Can get a 3/4 BAB to a high to hit bouns at level 1. And hase a plan to keap it that way.
My group just started using 15 point buy. It's my fault after showing them how easy it is to brak the system. With a higher point buy.
Um...no I never had problems with average BAB character in melee who were built for melee.
But I have had my dice seeminly hate some of my characters...so it could be bad dice luck. The way I solve this is burn the character sheet(after making a copy) to applease the Dice Gods. Ok that is a joke...but yes I have bad dice kharma seemingly screw over characters before.
I don't get the point of this thread though. What is the goal? Just to find comfort in that other people have had you issues? To get confirmination in your beliefs?
lol, there is always something wrong, 1st the fighter sucks now he rocks too hard and makes the 3/4 BAB's feel bad. Full BAB classes can hit a bit harder and more often, but they do sacrifice versatility for it and typically their defense sucks more than 3/4 classes.
I play an inquisitor at the moment which does make me feel a bit sad, it is a halfling in a high powered campaign and the DM thinks he is too bad ass. I kinda dislike it and consider withdrawing it and make a simpler character that doesn't scare everyone so much with his awesomeness.
I think too many people are choosing to accuse the op of not being able to make strong characters. Play nice people.
As far as heirloom weapon being good. Well if the party does their own crafting then it is definitely good. Especially considering that a +4 or 5 equivalent weapon already bypasses a ton of material based DR. So the heirloom weapon being iron is not a big issue. I find heirloom weapon is a big deal at lvl 1 and a bigger deal past lvl 10 when players are definitely enhancing or crafting their own items and "true" optimizers are going for absolutely every bonus they can get their hands on.
The other thing about 3/4 bab classes is a bunch of them have to spread their stats around more. Gish casters, monks, and even the rogue cannot easily focus as much of their point buy points on a single attacking stat. An optimized full bab class will have a 20 in their attacking stat be it str or dex.
At lvl 1 they will be, 1 point ahead in bab, possibly 1 point ahead by weapon focus(if the gish is spending their 1st feat on weapon finesse), 1 or 2 points by a focused str score of 20.
If I am making a lvl 1 mounted character, I can even be another point ahead when attacking medium and smaller creatures on my large mount.
Just at lvl 1, a full bab melee character can be 3 or 4 points of bab ahead. This gap closes alittle when gish characters buff themselves but by later lvls when large ammounts of long term buffing is available to everyone, These gish characters lose that advantage and then weapon training, rage, favored enemy, and smite just make the gap closer 10 points to hit.
Of course the real winners are then the 3/4 bab full casters who get to play around in melee and still have access to their spells when their ability to melee isn't good enough.
thank you for this. this was very informative and gave me a new insight on this.
I think the OP is correct at some level. I can make a 3/4 BAB character that contributes in combat, but it takes quite some effort.
An example, take a cleric at level 8 vs a fighter:
Both have 22 STR and use greatsword+2:
Fighter with weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon specialization, improved critical, power attack and furious focus with weapon training 1 has:
+19/11 hit 2-12+23 damage crit 17-20/x2 (54 dpr vs ac21)
Cleric has weapon focus, power attack, and furious focus.
+15/8 hit 2-12+17 damage crit 19-20/x2 (30.36 dpr vs ac21)
+17/10 hit 2-12+19 damage crit 19-20/x2 with divine favor (38.61 dpr vs ac21)
Now, drop the cleric STR from 22 to 18 and the dpr is 21.95 and 29.10
with divine favor up. You can see that as you lose focus on combat, dpr starts dropping like a rock.Drop the cleric STR to 14 and remove the feats and the dpr is 9.9/14.63. At this point, it is almost not worth having the cleric melee. This is the reason why clerics need to focus their character on casting or melee. If you don't concentrate on melee, you won't be good; and at some point it's almost irrelevant to melee.
And note that while I used cleric, you could replace cleric with oracle or other 3/4 BAB classes and have the same issues. Fighter doesn't just get full BAB, it gets weapon feats and weapon training. Barbarian gets rage, rangers get favored enemy and paladin gets smite. So 3/4 casters need to make up the loss of BAB and the other abilities the full BAB classes have in melee.
and thank you as well. this gave me more insight. thanks for those of you that have posted.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/bardVsClericVsEldritchKnightMeleeBattle&page=1&source=se arch#0
If you compare a 9th level fighter to these numbers, you can see that there is a difference, but it isn't that much. In all but the most optimized games a 3/4 BAB can keep up with the demands of combat. However, it can't be done without sacrificing some of your power as a caster.