I got this player that has the bad habit of creating outcasts or lonewolf type characters. As a whole, it didn't hit me in the face as much as last game; We just started a new campaign, and it went good until his character was faced with one of the biggest festival in his village. To be short, it implies physical challenges of all sort, from obstacle race to holding your breath underwater the longer you can. You know, usual youth fun and good competition.
Problem is, the BIG event is a fighting tournament, with wooden weapons. This character wants to talk himself out of it, because he does not believe in fighting against people from his own tribe. That puts him in a situation where a 2 hours and a half animation will unfold without his participation. How would you handle that, as a DM? I don't want the player sleeping at the end of my gaming table and I'm certainly not going to animate the loner guy when I have so much stuff to manage at the tournament...
Sorry to say seen this unfold under my DM, it is his choice, let him sit. He wants to waste to hours of his life sitting their not involved I say let him.
Let him live with his choices. If the fighting event is non-lethal then I don't see why he is so much against it though. If everyone in the part is in it then I would quickly describe the NPC fights, and the player fights should not take long so he should be ok unless you think he is going to pout the entire time.
How did that character learn to fight at all? Went to another tribe for training?
It's a non-lethal event with mock weapons. It's a friendly competition, a lot like sparring with tribesmen.
And you don't learn fighting without some sparring. And unless the tribe has really weird customs, they spar with each other, probably under the supervision of a trainer, to learn how to fight.
Try to get him to participate with that logic. When he still refuses, he wants to be left out.
All replies make a lot of sense. I think I'll still force him into participation... I don't want to exclude the guy so fast, in fact he probably needs to be forced.
I think letting him out of it will only lessen his interest. He's a good player, a rigorous roleplayer, but his rigid decisions are sometimes bad for gameplay. I guess he has to learn to ride the waves.
Thanks all.
All replies make a lot of sense. I think I'll still force him into participation... I don't want to exclude the guy so fast, in fact he probably needs to be forced.
I think letting him out of it will only lessen his interest. He's a good player, a rigorous roleplayer, but his rigid decisions are sometimes bad for gameplay. I guess he has to learn to ride the waves.
Thanks all.
I would try Kaeyoss logical approach. In order to avoid him making up any nonsense to get out of the duel I would probably ask for a short background story. If his training is not mentioned I would ask how he learned to fight. Then you throw the trap at him.
If he has been with the tribe his entire life he has no way out so just use Kaeyoss idea and forego the background story.
Problem is, the BIG event is a fighting tournament, with wooden weapons. This character wants to talk himself out of it, because he does not believe in fighting against people from his own tribe.
Tell your player to stop being dumb. "I refuse to fight you in this nonlethal, test of skill contest because you are of my own tribe." Yeah, whatever.
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You could force his participation in game. An example:
One person in the village is named the mud man. While he is the mud man people throw dung and mud at him while he walks around. Problem is that he can transfer his mud man status by defeating someone in wrestling or boxing or stick fights.
Even worse he can just do it to any adult male in the festival by just challenging them and starting the fight.
So LoneWolf is walking down the street when stinking mud man yells, "I challenge you! LoneWolf!" Then mudman jumps on him and tries to wrestle him into a pin. If you make the mudman strong then boom LoneWolf is now mudman and has to dodge mud and dung all day if he does not participate.
…but his rigid decisions are sometimes bad for gameplay.
And this is a perfectly valid reason to ask a player to reconsider their character. Some concepts simply do not work well. Why should everyone else be forced to wrack their brain trying to think of reasons to include the loner? If the player is unwilling to meet you half way, why should everyone else meet them all the way?
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He's not really fighting against people of his own tribe, this is practice.
But if you can't get him to join the fighting tournament AT ALL, perhaps you can make an alternate contest (archery? storytelling? baking? pie-eating?) that can get him involved better. After every fifteen or twenty minutes of 'fighting tournament stuff' or whenever it seems appropriate, you can switch the spotlight back to the lone wolf for a few minutes.
"Forcing" participation is never the way to go, because then they do resent it.
Really, you should sit this player down and talk it out at length, use some of the aside conversations mentioned but don't "throw a trap" at him. Really figure out why he doesn't want to participate; "I don't want to fight my tribesmen" puts him, from some basic assumptions, at odds with his village in the first place. So why is he from a village that he shares little or no values with? Iron out that backstory and why he is built the way he is and *really* why he's refusing to get involved. If he's doing it "just because", its probably to pull attention. Let him sit on the sidelines after that; setting precedent by allowing players to PULL attention is a bad thing. If its a certain nervousness about being in the spotlight, work that out on the side. If its that they don't know what they want out of the character, work out the general concepts.
He's not really fighting against people of his own tribe, this is practice.
But if you can't get him to join the fighting tournament AT ALL, perhaps you can make an alternate contest (archery? storytelling? baking? pie-eating?) that can get him involved better. After every fifteen or twenty minutes of 'fighting tournament stuff' or whenever it seems appropriate, you can switch the spotlight back to the lone wolf for a few minutes.
I have to disagree with this on multiple levels.
1) Splitting the party isn't so much bad for the party as it is boring as hell for the players. If you absolutely must kowtow to this player, just do his stuff in order with everyone else.2) Why are we going to kowtow to and make something special for him? The player is being obstinate and ridiculous on the false grounds of "being a really good role-player." Sure, if his character is also obstinate and ridiculous. A non-lethal test of skill is a non-lethal test of skill. If he doesn't want to do it because his character wouldn't do it (yeah, whatever), tell him not to come to the game while you are conducting the fighting tournament for the reasonable players.
To shamelessly quote myself.
In the context of a written story (book, movie, show, play, etc) there are two great archetypes that can be interesting:
A) the Tabula-Rasa (Data, Pinocchio, Galataea, the first cylon in Caprica)B) The "I'm a loner Dotty, a rebel" (Wolverine, Deadpool, Pee-Wee, Tom Bombadil)
In a game setting these characters can derail the game by demanding an inordinate amount of time be dedicated to them. As soon as a Data-type character asks "why?" Plot, character interactions, even basic dungeoneering can come to a screeching halt.
As soon as a Wolverine-type decides that hes gotta go do what he does best, alone; the chances of it taking up scads of time and creating the screeching halt factor rises exponentially. Note: everyone wants to be Wolverine, but remember no one wants to be Wolverine's friends cause you dont get to do much. Also in this instance what is good for the goose is good for the gander: these do not make good long term NPC's to introduce, a single instance sure but not for the long haul.
Purely my OPINION mind you, Lone-wolves generally are more trouble than they are worth (for the Players and GM, which is my critical issue) bringing the character concept to the table.
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Cartigan, I don't think your games are similar enough to my games that agreement/disagreement are meaningful in the least. We are not perpendicular lines, intersecting and disagreeing on the same plane, but lines askew, not so much as sharing a plane and each appearing to the other as a single point, easily dismissed.
Cartigan, I don't think your games are similar enough to my games that agreement/disagreement are meaningful in the least. We are not perpendicular lines, intersecting and disagreeing on the same plane, but lines askew, not so much as sharing a plane and each appearing to the other as a single point, easily dismissed.
After playing a game over the past two weeks where the party inadvertently got split up and the game was conducted in a series of 30-60 minute intervals for each (of 4) party, let's say I think it's ineffective to give everyone their own spotlight every 20 minutes while the players not in it go take naps. Not to mention, not teaching our true role-player anything.
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Okay. You think it's ineffective.
I have seen a party split used to great effect. So I think that it can be effective.
However, I do not think we can really get much further than this. Our separate experiences have taught us different things. I am willing to respect your experience, insofar as I will not attempt to insist that you should believe as I do, but I do ask that you grant the possibility that my experience isn't totally invalid.
Okay. You think it's ineffective.
I have seen a party split used to great effect. So I think that it can be effective.
I think I meant to use the word boring. Or at least, use that word to make it clearer what I meant.
Problem is, the BIG event is a fighting tournament, with wooden weapons. This character wants to talk himself out of it, because he does not believe in fighting against people from his own tribe.
Try asking him if he hates his tribe? Then ask him if he does not hate his tribe why he would hate their sacred traditions and holidays? Why would he disagree with the tribes ancient rituals and customs, like the great tourneament? Does he think his tribe is wrong or cruel?
If he grew up in this tribe then he would have no real reason to NOT do it. Heck it might even be seen as an insult to the tribe and his ancestors if he does not participate or the women of the tribe may see him as weak or odd and not want to pair with him, etc.
If the tribe thinks this contest is ok and the elders do too who is he to say otherwise?
If you force him to participate, that could result in more bitterness between you and him and create problems down the road.
I am going to ask an obvious question, and if you've already done it, great:
Have you asked him how you could encourage him to be involved?
He has stated why his character won't participate in the fighting. Got that. But that is not an end to the conversation. When someone is dead set on saying no, flipping around the discussion to ask, "Why not yes?" sometimes brings about much better results.
Were I a GM with this kind of player, I would sit down and say much of what you said here:
"I appreciate your dedication to roleplaying, but do you understand that if you don't participate in this at all, you'll be sitting around for 2 hours doing nothing while everyone else plays?
"Understanding that I will NOT change the story just to accommodate your character, because that's not fair to everyone else, but I want you to be a part of this. I want YOU not to be bored, and I want to emphasize that what we are playing a cooperative game, and that means everyone needs to join in somehow. What can we do to make sure you have something to do?
"What constitutes violence to your fellow tribe members? Do you understand that this is just a mock-up, that no one will get hurt? If your PC stands firm, would he be willing to help his teammates via Aid Another actions, or be ready on the sidelines to treat any injuries that are done?"
And so on. Just asking him what he would like to do might provide ideas in how he can participate without sacrificing his character's beliefs--and he may well come up with something you didn't think of that will still suit your storyline perfectly. If he's having trouble coming up with ideas on his own, play upon his reasons for avoiding the situation rather than try to disregard them. Tribal loyalty for example is important to him, so try to work with that: "Bob who saved your life is involved in this, and your tribe would consider it an unforgivable shame if you did not join him in the ceremony." The key is to provide motivation that he can both feel interested in and excited about and ultimately leads to more group interaction for reasons that do not feel forced.
If he refuses to discuss it or just tries to find excuses not to join in, then I agree with other posters: he's not interested in playing a cooperative game and should be politely asked to bow out. HOWEVER, often I find that talking to players who seem to either want the spotlight or avoid group activities just need a little GM attention to help them find motivation, and then they do just fine. Often what seems to be a "lone wolf" player is more of an actor-diva who is suffering at the "what's my motivation" line and stifling their own ability to participate.
There is an idea I have seen floated that I want to try. I think it would work nearly anytime you split up the group and might work here. Have the player whose PC is not present run and NPC or two. If his character refuses to fight, then he sits in the stands while the player runs one of the NPCs against one of the other PCs. His character gets to stick to his convictions and the player still gets involved.
I actually have this in my house rules: No loner characters. My game is about the party, not about one PC's tortured soul.
Instead of the stick how about the carrot?
Winner of each competition gets a prize! If they are level 1, its a potion, if they are higher level, it is something better!
OR
Make some of the competitions worth XP. Just don't tell them until after.
OR
Give the winner a role-play award. I do this all the time, and players like it. "You are now known as the Hero of INSERTVILLAGENAME. You add +6 bonus to any diplomacy check when dealing with someone from this village until next year's festival.
Lone wolf will see that the people that participate get all the goodies.
If Mr. Crappypants doesn't want to participate and make the game fun, award those that do!
Every character is expected to be "special-forces" material, and be capable at what they do. You are part of an elite group that relies on each other for survival every day. Playing a "lone-wolf", psychopath, spoiled brat, moron, or other non-team player will not be tolerated. Characters are generally not allowed to attack, target with hostile spells, or use adversarial skills on another PC. PCs are also expected to not steal from each other, or withhold information. All treasure discovered is considered group property until divided up.
I don't put up with that lone wolf crap at all. You want to play like that in a solo adventure, sure why not. You want to act like a lone wolf when you have several other party members backing you up? That isn't a lone wolf, that is an ungrateful douche.
There is only one real piece advice I can give you.
TALK TO YOUR PLAYER!!!!
It is really simple. Don't 'trap' him....don't punish him. Just talk to him. It is really simple.
Because really I have no frakking idea what happens at your table....and I am not going to sit here and say this player is wrong. I am sorry I rather sleep then 2 hours of 'animation'(whatever that is ?) of boring fights. Not to be too insulting but even with just hearing your side I can totaly sympathize with this player.
Unless you can get this player to actualy post...we can't help. Why is it that you think a bunch of anymous strangers on a message board can help you?
I thought Deathquaker and Courtfool had good ideas.
Also, you mentioned that the festival has numerous events, including an obstacal race and holding your breath. Those are not examples of fighting. Let him participate in THOSE events. If this were a jousting tournament, the party wizard wouldn't be strapping on armor and picking up a lance. He/she would be in some other kind of event.
Because really I have no frakking idea what happens at your table....and I am not going to sit here and say this player is wrong. I am sorry I rather sleep then 2 hours of 'animation'(whatever that is ?) of boring fights. Not to be too insulting but even with just hearing your side I can totaly sympathize with this player.
Unless you can get this player to actualy post...we can't help. Why is it that you think a bunch of anymous strangers on a message board can help you?
First off, the general advice I received here was good. The propositions I received were interesting. Advice from uninvolved people go a long way.
Well, by "Animation" I meant every detail and NPC development I intended to unfold during said tournament. be it cheaters, or certain characters that are vital to put up against said loner in the storyline, or such. I can think of other ways to get this character into his very personal intrigue (because I like to give out personal sub-quests to single characters), but he cut himself out of it for no constructive reason. it's not like his character had anything better to do, he's just sitting out.
And of course, I do not intend to do "boring fights". Of course, there will be fights, but the tournament tree is tailor made to make rivals, get to know the important NPCs, and trying to kick some local bully's bum.
So, all in all, I had much to manage at once, without creating extra treats for a character taking a non-party-wise decision. I needed advice, that's all. I'm considering most of DeathQuaker's right now (Though that doesn't mean I don't thank everyone for their contribution.)