Our group has found that pretty much the other melee classes . . .can only outdamage an equivalent fighter when using thier 'special kick a$$' ability.
That's the way it's meant to be.
Fighters can't do anything but fight. Rangers get three times the skills and more class skills, track, animal companion. Paladins get excellent saves, channel energy, bonded mount or weapon, and spells.
can only outdamage an equivalent fighter when using thier 'special kick a$$' ability.
Except for that ability they obviously can get nothing that gives them DPR that fighters can´t get, what did you expect? Fighters get tons of feats and stuff, even without weapon training and other stuff pathfinder introduced.
There´s only one exception, rangers don´t need prequisites for combat style feats so you could build a low dex twf ranger. (archer rangers get some feats earlier than fighters but that´s just a temporary boost, the fighter archer will easily outshine him with weapon specialization and weapon training - then again, arcane archers get lots of damage boosts and a bard + arcane archer combination with arcane strike does a lot of damage if he hits...)On the other hand, DPR isn´t all there is - paladins have divine grace, rangers have evasion and warriors that are not compelled by mind affecting spells or fried by fireballs don´t just have a small advantage. Paladins will be able to smite the most "bosses" if not all of them. Rangers get a lot of skills. Entangle can end a fight, Lesser Restoration can be a live saver. Just as it should be, fighters are fighting savants.
Fighters kick ass and are awesome.
Nevertheless, remeber that their saves are very crappy. Cavaliers only, of the full BAB classes, have saves at the same level.
Paladin has divine grace. Ranger has evasion. Barbarian has rage and superstition. Monk (full BAB for maneuvers and flurry) has 3 good saves.
(I'm pretty much curious about a Pounce + CaGM + Reckless Abandon + Witch Hunter barbarian, BTW)
So if fighters are unmatched in killing people, it's just what it should be. They are supposed to be people wich dedicated their life to the study of weapons, armor and tactics (and likely with a particular dedication to a specific style/weapon).
Potion of protection vs. evil goes an awful long way toward protecting that fighter against most of the attacks to which they are most vulnerable: charms and compulsions.
Since I sent a ghost after a party once (wasn't pretty, the ghost possessed the party- the archer chewed off his box fingers and the dwarf shaved off his beard) one of my players always buys a ring of protection vs. for every character now. It has really saved his bacon ceveral times over.
Potion of protection vs. evil goes an awful long way toward protecting that fighter against most of the attacks to which they are most vulnerable: charms and compulsions.
You can go around class weaknesses. My point was not attacking the fighter, but point out other classes strenght.
What Charlie Bell said +1
Also I'm a big fan of a single (or double)dip in Monk for the Fighter, you get sooo much thats useful. You give up very little.
Funny since 3.5's version of fighter was little more than a dip class for monks and spellcasters to hit PrC requirements.
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Hold on tight, this could get rough!
The Fighter in our group kicks ass. Last session ended with a fight with a vampire. We made sure to protection from evil the Fighter, then buffed ourselves, and ran in. Rounds later, my Druids bleeding to death, level drained body was bouncing down the road on his out of control animal horse animal companion, while another member lay bleeding and the bard singing quietly to himself under the vampires domination. The Fighter, dauntless, pulled out a can of whuppass on said cadaver, killing him, smashing into the coffin room and staking the creature, then went and made sure us sissies were ok.
If only all of us could be so cool.
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Completely irrelevantly to any balance or theorycraft - I have a guy in one of my groups. He wanted to play a Fighter that does truckloads of damage. That's what rocks his boat.
He asked me to help him out with that. I put together the APG Two-handed Weapon Fighter with appropriate feats, and now at level 5 he's doing thirtysomething damage per hit (Power Attack, of course). We were playing Tower of the Last Baron and he was dropping mooks like flies. He loved that.
He's happy. He's so damn happy. It makes me happy too.
To see fighters kicking a$$ follow link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iFrHRaH0Os
Damn, that is bad a$$.
To see fighters kicking a$$ follow link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iFrHRaH0Os
And to see fighters being utterly dominated and humiliated by casters in every way actually play the game this clip advertises.
Not. A. Caster. Debate. Fighter. Thread.
Okay. The clip is question is a great example how the plot - even within something as small as an advertising videoclip - must blatantly bend itself over for fighters to make them less than completely useless against anything stronger than mundane humanoids.
Actually, I think it more represents a team using party tactics to aid each other. Maybe that doesn't speak to your experience but it does to mine.
Sorry for the derail - but my intention was actually state that damage is not everything :)
In our group the fighter is awesome. Is a mind-focused, control focused shielded fighter. Uses a Khopesh and the TWF+Shield tree, and I've seen him make several awesome stuff.
As an example, the party was seraching stuff in a tower in the enemy base and a combat started. The guards called reinforcements, a group of ogre fighters.
He let his allies do their job and ran in favoreable position, starting to smack down from the bastion everey ogre present.
More than one time I've seen him as a stopper in a passage, preparing an action and coordinating AOOs to trip+rush away a big monsters, starting thereafter to intimdate the lesser mooks.
I personally have never had the power creep/overpower/broken, etc., issues others experienced. I have many theories why, but don't want to go there again. What I will say is I love fighters. And rangers. And paladins.
My wife typically prefers to play a fighting type, usually just off-center, such as a ranger, paladin, etc. Because she likes to leave the rules stuff to me, I get to tool them for her to her liking. I can say she has yet to play a character that does not kick ass, however the ass-kicking came to be.
Fighter, ranger, and paladin have all been memorable and have all been superb fighting characters. We're retooling the ranger right now for a reboot of that character in a new game, and I gotta say, if he weren't hers, I'd take him. And I'd take that character into any battle.
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I'd cut the head off both of yer if I thought:
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Even the occasional scroll or two of Dispel Magic, handed over to the magic users, can help negate the weakness of the awesome fighter. Allowing him to be more, well, awesome.
It can also take care of other problems bestowed on the fighter.
If your gm is cool, you might even be able to get a wand of dispel magic with a few charges left.
I like the sheer number of awesome feats available to you due to getting a feat at every level. Especially when you are 6+. Lunge, Vital Strike, Imp. TWF, Shield Slam
At 8+ Imp. Critical,+9 critical focus etc...
There is something to be said for the other combat classes too.
Charlie: Dude, you have a really long wishlist. Is this updated? Santa is on hold on the other phone. He is trolling the paizo threads as we speak. :)
I think we have reached a point where both of us know were are made of 90% sarcasm :)I get grumpy when there is no work for me to do all day.
Edit: It was a jest, ciretose, I apologize if it was too sharp.
Are you two sarcasm elementals :P?
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Anyone else's experience differ?
I agree with you for low and medium levels. I played a fighter from level 1 all the way to level 13. But at level 13, when he died for the 3rd or 4th time, I had to roll a new PC as fighter was not working anymore. I made a paladin and never looked back: the higher save meant he didn't die every time a ref or will save was called for; the immunity to fear meant he didn't exit every fight screaming in utter panick; and let's face it ==> most campaigns have good PCs fight evil foes, in which case, at high levels, paladins win hands down (smite lasts until the foe is dead or the pally rests... a 19th level pally thus adds +19 to damage on every hit... there's no amount of feats that will get you anywhere near this)
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Charlie: Dude, you have a really long wishlist. Is this updated? Santa is on hold on the other phone. He is trolling the paizo threads as we speak. :)
Lol- After I subscribed to the GameMastery maps, I put all the ones prior to my subscription on the wish list so I'd remember what to buy later. Sounds like you're back--welcome back!
Hi,
just wondering what other people's experience is across the board with ranking thier melee chars.
Our group has found that pretty much the other melee classes-
Ranger
Cavalier
Paladincan only outdamage an equivalent fighter when using thier 'special kick a$$' ability.
I think most people will agree that fighters can bring the pain like no other class. I've found that because of the fighter-only feats and Weapon Training, they can even out-do a monk in unarmed combat (DPR, not max potential). However, that is all they do. If they didn't do that well in melee, no one would play them when Paladin, Barbarian, Ranger, and Cavalir were options. I think as far as play-ballance goes, Paizo got fighters right vs other classes.