Well, here we go with our own thread.
Here's my redo Innovation Mastery.
Innovation Mastery: At 19th level, the gunslinger becomes a master of innovations and develops a number of truly new and innovative breakthroughs of significant import. The gunslinger can choose either a single master innovations to add to her firearms, or a two more normal innovations in its place. Only one master innovation may be added to a gunslinger’s firearms. For many gunslingers, this master innovation is the primary goal of their experimental craft and hard work. The following are a list of master innovations the gunslinger can choose from:
So, Maxximilius, what do you want me do with the Alpha version? In reference to Ashiel's comments on the other thread?
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Well, here we go with our own thread.
Here's my redo Innovation Mastery.
Innovation Mastery: At 19th level, the gunslinger becomes a master of innovations and develops a number of truly new and innovative breakthroughs of significant import. The gunslinger can choose either a single master innovations to add to her firearms, or a two more normal innovations in its place. Only one master innovation may be added to a gunslinger’s firearms. For many gunslingers, this master innovation is the primary goal of their experimental craft and hard work. The following are a list of master innovations the gunslinger can choose from:
So, Maxximilius, what do you want me do with the Alpha version? In reference to Ashiel's comments on the other thread?
Little typos in the description, I suggest this instead : "The gunslinger can choose either a single master innovation to add to her firearms, or instead two innovations of lower level. A master innovation can only be gained by Innovation Mastery."
I think the Alpha version should include the full OGL licence, and on the page before, a sentence explaining the purpose and the origins of the ideas, something like this :"Inspired from Paizo's Alpha Gunslinger ; the unofficial Alpha Gunslinger is the result of the Pathfinder RPG community work and ideas put on the table to improve the class, and a tool for designers and players alike. The topic open to suggestions can be found here (hyperlink to this topic).
This work wouldn't have been possible without all the players who stood up to make the Gunslinger an awesome firearm wielder ; by playtesting it, giving ideas, or simply giving their opinion. Thanks to them !
Special thanks to "Ashiel" J.Scott Mohn (hyperlink to mail adress ? Maybe a confirmation from Ashiel could be good on this one !) from Alvena Publishing, whose personnal take on the Gunslinger (hyperlink to 1.2 Gunslinger) on the Paizo forums (hyperlink to Ashiel's Gunslinger topic) heavily inspired the initiative and the content of this pdf."
I think it should be good ? :)
Innovation Mastery: Looks good to me, though I might clear up that it goes for ANY GUN, 1 master innovation or two regular innovations.
On the topic of licenses:
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I'm sorry, but I was operating under the understanding that this forum was here for the purpose of making sure that Paizo was able to release the best possible product to the community. I don't want this to turn into a pissing match where Paizo has to worry about giving credit to any of us for the ideas herein, or doesn't include something for fear of starting a legal battle. I see no purpose in officially crediting Ashiel on this. Just make a statement that this is a community project with the purpose of giving the developers ideas, nothing more. None of us own this. This belongs to Paizo. We're the customers, and we're trying to make sure the product we receive is the best one possible. That is all.
Actually, most of the 1.3 class was took and adaptated/directly copied from Ashiel's 1.2 Gunslinger, and thus not under an OGL licence. Considering that the Alpha Gunslinger will be a rewrite from 1.3...
That made it as protected as Wizards of the Coast spell names and Illithids, so I feel it is only fair to give credit when so much of the class and new cool deeds come from this source. I don't think it's gonna hurt anyone, and if it can help Ashiel in some way, it's worth the help he gave by simply inspiring the initiative with his take on the class, don'tcha think ? ;)
Better?
Innovation Mastery: At 19th level, the gunslinger becomes a master of innovations and develops a number of truly new and innovative breakthroughs of significant import. The gunslinger can choose either a single master innovation, or instead two innovations of lower level that she can add to any of her firearms. A master innovation can only be gained by Innovation Mastery. Only one master innovation may be added to any of the gunslinger’s firearms. For many gunslingers, this master innovation is the primary goal of their experimental craft and hard work. The following are a list of master innovations the gunslinger can choose from:
Any other suggestions for Master Innovations? I already have the ones suggested in the other thread by Maxximilius, as below.
- Ammos piercing through several targets at each shot,
- "Gatling" for high damage in a short time,
- Explosive shots, like an alchemist bomb,
- Higher range for touch AC attacks + maybe a +1 to critical range when doing a focused high-precision attack...
Still sounds weird.
"The gunslinger can choose either a single master innovation, or instead two innovations of lower level that she can add to any of her firearms."
Let me try...
"The gunslinger can add either a single master innovation, or two normal innovations, to each of her firearms."
The master innovations are tricky. Here is where I'd be willing to recommend percussion caps, magazines (which I'm trying to figure out how it would work), or silencers...
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"The gunslinger can add either a single master innovation, or two normal innovations, to each of her firearms."
I think you got the good writing for Innovation Mastery. :)
Some suggestions (probably not hyper well-balanced, again) that come to me from my Bioshock experience and other games :
Normal innovation :
- Shooting a bolas/net - capture gun.
- Adding the equivalent of a crossbow on the gun (high range).
- Vicious ammos - +1d6 sneak attack.
Master innovations :
- "Trap" bullets, exploding when someone gets/is close but not when fired on a material.
- Anything small enough can be shot without needing any powder or ammunition, and this furthermore allows you to give a +3 enchantment on 50 little objects of your choice per day/24h while doing damage as by normal bullets. The enhancement should be done in one time with 50 little objects. So, you can shoot your +3 platinum pieces or +1 Good aligned toothpicks to the Lich while laughing maniacally about how rich you are at 19th level and how your teeths are so clean.
- Critical ammos : increases the critical range of the weapon by one (stacks with critical focus) and the misfire by one. Deadly with a 18-20 x4...
- Flamethrower/Coldgun/Plasma. Spread effect or line similar to damages from a wizard with some less levels.
- Hyper-schrapnel : bullets explode in a little radius allowing no save and doing small but consequent damage when additioned. Not much different from explosive shots like an alchemist.
- Full-contact cross, dealing high melee damages ?
- Heavy ammos pushing the enemy like a bull rush or another combat manoeuvre at a high bonus when focusing on only one shot ?
- As Odentin said, percussion, silencer...
Don't really know what to add just now... :/
Thanks guys, that really helps. I shall ponder and post what I figure out. Get back to you ASAP. And I shall make the change to Innovation Mastery.
Elghinn, just so I know, you ARE changing the wording on the new version, so that there's no chance of an issue with Ashiel's? Personal opinion aside, I'm contributing to this in an effort to make Paizo's gunslinger better, not Ashiel's. I don't want there to be any kind of reason for Paizo to avoid any of the mechanics we're suggesting, just out of fear of a legal dispute with Ashiel.
Elghinn, just so I know, you ARE changing the wording on the new version, so that there's no chance of an issue with Ashiel's? Personal opinion aside, I'm contributing to this in an effort to make Paizo's gunslinger better, not Ashiel's. I don't want there to be any kind of reason for Paizo to avoid any of the mechanics we're suggesting, just out of fear of a legal dispute with Ashiel.
I gave Maxximilius the right to reproduce it for non-commercial purposes. If Paizo does want to use anything from my version of the gunslinger, then they need but ask. I like Paizo, and I think they have the right heart when it comes to the game and all of us.
Perhaps it seems selfish to want to at least be somewhat recognized for the work that you put forward, and if so, I apologize; but I did put forth a lot of effort to design and balance a usable gunslinger based on a theme I felt Paizo was going for, without using any of Paizo's material; including writing a moderate amount of mechanics, including an entire class, weapons, weapon rules, additional items, gunpowder, gunpowder items (including alchemical bombs), the feats listed with the gunslinger, and even drew some concept art for it (I'm no Wayne Reynolds though; that amazing fellow, him).
I'm a designer. Unpaid, but a designer. I enjoy what I write; I put a lot of effort into it; I'm very finicky about making sure that what I write is good, useful, and with a standard of quality; and I want to do it professionally one day; and while I may be misinterpreting, I feel like a bit of a negative vibe from your posts because of this.
If there is hard feelings, I apologize.
Odentin:
I have changed the wording somewhat, but that was before Ashiel said anything. Since I consider myself a writer too, I made some changes here and there to fit my way of writing. But since Ashiel has given us his blessing, we're good. I will however be ensuring that Ashiel's work us recognized, since it is his document we worked off of. So cudos to him.
Ashiel:
I think Odentin is just not wanting to step on anyone's toes. I think all of us who consider ourselves writers would like to do it someday, and perhaps for Paizo. All of of just want to make sure we're fair andd respectful to our fellow Paizo compatriots who seek to better the game for us all. So again, thankyou for all you've done, Ashiel, and please join in on this thread if you have anything to add.
Odentin:
I have changed the wording somewhat, but that was before Ashiel said anything. Since I consider myself a writer too, I made some changes here and there to fit my way of writing. But since Ashiel has given us his blessing, we're good. I will however be ensuring that Ashiel's work us recognized, since it is his document we worked off of. So cudos to him.
Ashiel:
I think Odentin is just not wanting to step on anyone's toes. I think all of us who consider ourselves writers would like to do it someday, and perhaps for Paizo. All of of just want to make sure we're fair andd respectful to our fellow Paizo compatriots who seek to better the game for us all. So again, thankyou for all you've done, Ashiel, and please join in on this thread if you have anything to add.
No problem. I'll try to check in from time to time. My first thoughts is the class seems a little bulky (likely from trying to incorporate so many ideas at once), but that may be fixable with certain applications of formatting.
Alright! After much humming and hawing, and figuring out these master innovations, I should be posting the Gunslinger Alpha v. 1.4.0 TODAY. Fingers crossed. I hope you like what you see. I keep everyone posted.
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Finally ! :D
Can't wait to see this. Hope you kept the capture gun innovation idea so to have non-lethal distance-tripping or net-catching thrower weapons. By "today", you mean "in some hours" in your country ?
It's 23:30 here, so for me it could also be tomorrow. :D
Be sure I'll review it when it's out. ;)
Can't wait. Gonna see if my GM will allow me to test this once its out...
Finally ! :D
Can't wait to see this. Hope you kept the capture gun innovation idea so to have non-lethal distance-tripping or net-catching thrower weapons. By "today", you mean "in some hours" in your country ?
It's 23:30 here, so for me it could also be tomorrow. :D
Be sure I'll review it when it's out. ;)
Yes I did, I called it the Entangler innovation. I like in Western Canada. It's 5 pm Monday the 21st when I posted this. Where are you???
Sorry it took so long, I have 3 young kids, I work (like everyone else), and have church responsibilities. I also went through everything as best i could to make sure it made sense. I hope I also got all the mechanics cross overs right with feats and Combat Maneuvers.
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Yes I did, I called it the Entangler innovation. I like in Western Canada. It's 5 pm Monday the 21st when I posted this. Where are you???
Sorry it took so long, I have 3 young kids, I work (like everyone else), and have church responsibilities. I also went through everything as best i could to make sure it made sense. I hope I also got all the mechanics cross overs right with feats and Combat Maneuvers.
I'll look at this like, right now with sweat on my face, and review later. And I'm in France. ;)
No problem though for the wait, we understand. I have a cat, I'm currently unemployed and a student again soon, and I've got satanic responsabilities that pump all my blood (sometimes litteraly), so I can't blame anyone for not having time. :oD
+1
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Until now, there are some little issues or some innovations/deed that could get a bit of rewriting, but this is my global feeling on the class. :D
Excellent. We ALL did a lot of work on it after all, so it better be good after everything we've done.
Overall, I like it. There are a few things that need to be rewritten or cleaned up, and a couple of wtf moments, but MOSTLY, I love it. Expect a writeup in the next couple of days...
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Okay, review coming. Overall, I love it, even if there are some issues like the global feeling that you can improve your damage like crazy with a good optimization. There is also so much possibilities that it's hard to think of any build without reading it several times - but again, mixing all that was suggested was the objective.
Special :
"Firearm" = nice changes.
Deeds :
"Advanced Firearm Training (Ex)" = This one was designed with another kind of Firearm Training at level 5, which you changed in a good enough way (Gun Training) to make this one obsolete.
"Dazzling Shot (Ex)" = You should change this to "Any target HIT within..." to make it clearer that it isn't anyone in the first range that gets dazzled. I wonder if forbidding to stack the critical effect with the capacity to gain 1 grit point when doing a critical hit is worth the deed, though.
"Desperate Shot (Ex)" = You should change this to "to make a single attack against a retreating target, or a target attempting to inflict a mortal wound to an ally or the gunslinger herself". Because right now, it looks like you can desperately shoot yourself or an ally. :D
"Gunslinger Feat" = I like that using a deed is the only way to get fighter-restricted feats.
"Piercing Shot (Ex" = Did you mean that you compare to "touch AC", and not "armor class" only, when you try to hit with a piercing shot ?
"Pistol-Whip" = A free trip seems pretty impressive, even if the class is principally a ranged one, and though would not benefit from a prone enemy. The 2HW fighter will hug you. I don't know if the last sentence that precises you need to spend 1 grit point applies only to this part (to get a free CMB check for each hit) or to the global deed... and even like this, I would suggest to say that the weapon allows you to do a free trip, and that you can freely drop out your weapon to not fall prone if you fail. It seems really good, but it has a lot of inconvenients (droping weapon, spending grit to do so, enemy prone gets +4 against shots...), so I guess it's fine on paper. :)
"Resolute shot" = Only for muskets ? Ouch. I can see why it would be way easier to pickle shot with your two pistols at once while TWF, but musket is also faster to reload. Which makes me think that there is actually nothing to reload a weapon while handling two in hands ? Any idea on the subject, from a feat that allows you to freely put a weapon in it's holster and so drawing/loading/shooting/holsting fast enough for TWF to a no-hand reloading innovation ? :/
You say this stacks with Multishot and Rapid shot, but are these additional shots included in the unique bullet, or fired at the same time and thus subject to DR ? This point needs clarification. :)
"Sniper Shot (Ex)" = 1 grit to double the threat-range for one round, stacking with Improved Critical, seems a bit too much for a x4 crit. weapon. Maybe something like "to increase the threat range of 1, added after any other other effect that increases the threat-range of a weapon, and a +2 to any critical confirmation roll. These bonuses last one round" would be better, for a maximum threat of 18-20x4/+2 to confirmation roll instead of 17-20x4.
"Utility Shot (Ex)" = I like that there is really a shot useful for any situation, even combat. The sparkle is powerful but blinds anyone in the range without a saving throw, so I guess the usual strategy will be to prepare a key word to make allies close their eyes, with the enemy able to throw Sense Motive to understand what is going on in this case. Still, a one round blindness can easily turn the fight into a win...
Innovations :
Alchemical *everything* = To gain place, and because I find the following version a bit more balanced and simpler, maybe we should simply say that there is an innovation that changes the weapon into an Alchemical Gun, and point out freduncio's Alchemical Gunsmith variant that was inspired by our own take on Powder/Bullets/etc we had on Ashiel's Gunslinger topic (look at the end of freduncio's topic for the full version). The gunslinger's level when crafting bullets could be equal to her level, and stack with alchemical gunsmith levels if any. It needs intelligence for a better use, so it's even more balanced except if you got 56 points at level 1 when buying stats...
Utility alchemical shot could be an innovation that needs Alchemical Gun on the same weapon, thus changing these discoveries into same level innovations, etc. Let me know what you think. Still I have to admit that I prefer Electricity Shot the old way. :)
"Breach Loader" = Nice ! I admit I would like to see a way to reload fast enough pistols and do TWF in the same round, this without dropping weapons (and so be able to reload without hands), or by doing it fast enough.
"Cannon" =
- Blunderbuss : seems good. Short range burst effect, and higher misfire makes it another style of gameplay.
- Range Cannon : it seemed potentially too much powerful, but reading it twice I saw Rifled Barrel didn't stack with it, so I guess Great Bore shouldn't too (should be written if it's the case), or this last one should be a Greater Innovation.
"Cartridge" = All innovations improve a weapon and thus take an innovation emplacement, but how does this one works, considering this improves your own capacities and not the gun's ? This should be a weapon modification to make it accept cartridges as projectiles - or else by raw, this should work with all weapons and thus be a "free" emplacement innovation.
"Deadly Menace" = Violent. I'm not used to high level games balance and begin to lack credibility on my opinion from 12-13th level, but +2 to threat-range, stacking with Improved critical, + Sniper Shot as it is written now, it's 15-20 x4. With dexterity bonus + a s&&~load of others to damage, all the while targeting touch AC at short range, seems really, really too good. And only for +1 misfire... reach level 20, and with innovations and deeds you will probably do per shot something like 2d8+28 (Weapon Specialization 1&2, Firearm Training, +5 Weapon, Sniper Shot, Rifled Barrel, Greater Bore...) 15-20x5 automatically confirmed. I don't know how to calculate DPR, but while the original was weak, this one can be way too good. But after all, it's more to give ideas about how the final gunslinger should be than to be fully balanced right now. :D
I would say that you get an additional +1 to threat range, added after any effect that does the same, and +1 misfire risk. So for a sniper musket at this level it could be 17-20x4 and something like 1-2 or 1-3 misfire, corrigible in a second with a deed to remove the broken condition.
"Efficacious dose" = It's unclear if Greater Bore always works or if you have to make doses each day right now. I think this innovation should work anytime the gunslinger does bullets (Alchemical Gun) or special shots (cartridge/greater bore, etc.).
"Entangler" = The net should be already folded when loaded on the weapon, and the new range of the net specified. The bolas should be thrown at full weapon range, maybe with a little malus to CMB when tripping this way. A mention that says that you don't get a malus to use a net or a bolas this way without being proficient with these exotic weapons could be useful to avoid questions. I like that this needs a move action to load. I guess rapid reload can apply ?
"Gunbow" = What you forget to say is that the crossbow got a high range, is more quiet and allows poisoning. Perfect for a stealthy gunslinger (I know, weird but can be interesting), but it's fine if you don't add it, concerned players will know how much this can be useful. :D
"More Dakka" = Should be "add one barrel to a firearm" now that you can add a number of innovations to all firearms you get.
"Revolver" = Nice, I like the high misfire in case of a shot lodged in the barrel.
"Rifled Barrel" = Looks like a must-have, maybe a bit too much.
Innovation mastery :
"Alchemical Cannon" = I like this. Seems balanced, but again, I'm not a pro of high levels. The Fire Shell seems too weak though, comparing to Acid which got less resistances and immunities at this level but gets more love on damage with Acid Shell. I'd say 2d6/round/2 rounds.
"Magazine Clip" = Perfect explaination, I'm just sad we don't get this sheer awesomeness of simplicity sooner, but it's what high level innovations are for !
"Ray Gun" = Essentially, a Scorching Ray with potentially more shots per round and high range. Behold the Holy Laser Perforating Ray Of The Gods when you stack this with Focused Shot, Sniper Shot and a good little Sniper musket build. 8D May seem not "fantasy" enough, but I'll just say f+@* yeah.
"Peacemaker" = Yeah, maybe too powerful ya know. xD Free Bull Rush is already good on any hit, but the f$$#ton of bonuses behind make it "a bit" too much. There is so much concentrated imagery making me imagine the guy explode, break four stone walls behind it at each shot then implode, or explode again that I guess it still needs a bit of work. :3
"Silencer" = Could maybe be a lower level innovation whose effect increases with level. Overall, I like the concept of the silent hitman, even if in reality, a silencer doesn't do s$&* to lower a pistol sound other than make it a high-pitched one.
"Blunderblast" = I like the concept, but don't understand how it works. If it's a blast cone, how can you have adirect hit attack ?
Feats :
I like them. Happy to see deed-feats only useful enough to be taken (deft-shootist for Gun Kata masters), and deed-feats only from the official alpha who became simple deeds. Happy to see that Signature Deed can also be taken for anything else than Rapid Reload while the original was pretty much around how to absolutely not avoid this, AND can even be dropped without having a sucking character !
Speaking of Gun Kata, I wondered if some of the deeds were useful with the APG feat which allows to shoot a ranged firearm without provoking opportunity, but the free trip and others make some deeds like Hack and Shoot worthwile, I guess.
Expect maybe a playtest soon, probably after some modifications have been made, with a gun kata master and a sniper in comparison to archer.
Well, I think it's all. Right now this is awesome but isn't perfect, though if any Paizo official gets on his way here, he'd better look at this ; there is all they need in ideas and raw materials to do a perfect official Gunslinger we'll love.
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Ok, I've got an issue while trying to build a Gun Kata oriented character starting at level 6, then higher. Basically, when you try to create a build, you'll see that all the interesting deeds for some builds need you to be at least level 7 - especially innovations. There isn't really anything to Gun Kata oriented character at lower level, especially when I saw that Pistol Whip was a standard action and not a simple attack action. Add to this that it needs strength or the Finesse feat, since melee doesn't do much damage when comparing to ranged firearms, that even BMC uses strength and that pistols are one-handed weapons (4- to hit in TWF at best until level 8 and Guns Akimbo)... and you've got a guy who sucks at what he wants to do.
I suggest that Pistol Whip should simply allow the gunslinger to use her guns as melee weapons and treat them as Finesseable by the way, and spend 1 grit to make a free trip using dexterity to BMC each time she wants to do so and that a melee whip hits. Also, the +2 to melee attacks from pistol whip wouldn't apply to a free pistol trip, and you could let your weapon fall to not fall prone yourself. Gun Kata should be accessible way before, level 10 seems way too far for something that couldn't break the game since it involves the Gunslinger to go in melee... and only this build could do it without sucking.
I'll see in the following build if you can get somewhere with the Gun Kata deed accessible at anytime with the condition "having pistol whip", and with the previous modifications applied. While reviewing, I still think Hack and Shoot is useless if you got Point-Blank Mastery, but this is a feat-intensive acquisition that gets almost no place at low-level, and by the time, you'll probably have changed this deed because he'll then be of no more use, but it's a really nice addition in low and mid levels. Saves seem way too high, guess my houserule works better with the base fighter that got sucking saves when this one can have huge saves everywhere using the same method... maybe using the consitution modifier as a bonus to Will and Reflexes would be better instead of Wisdom ? Or not at all, and just drop Gut Instinct.
There are only combat caracteristics displayed here, not skills.
It seems perfectly playable with the modifications I spoke about. Now to see if this isn't "too good", in comparison of the "too bad" it was before I made them.
Let me know what you think !
John Preston, Gunslinger lvl 6 (Point-buy 20), Gun-Kata apprentice for the Royal Guard :
10
18+2 = 20
14
8
15+1+2 = 18
10HP: 5d10 + 28
=> 60Init:
3+5=+8AC 10 + 5 dex + 5 armor => 20/15/15
Saves: Fort. (2+4+1=7), Ref. (5+5+4+1=15), Will (2+4+1=7);DMD: 10+6+5 = 21
BAB: +6/+1 (+5 Dex. and +1 With pistols.)
BMC: 6+0 = +6Attack: +1 Pistol (1d8+6 20x4, +1d6 acid) x2
+13/+8/+13
TWF: +9/+4/+9
Pistol Whip : +1 Pistol w/bayonet (1d8+6 20x2 + free trip for 1 grit) x2
+15/+10/+15 (BMC +14)
TWF: +11/+6/+11 (BMC +10)
Hack and Shoot : +1 Pistol w/bayonet x2 ; +1 Pistol x1
+15/+4/+15Grit pool:
3+4=7Feats :
H. Two-weapon fighting
1. Extra Deed
G. Quick Draw
3. Finesse
5. Weapon Focus : Pistol
(7. Improved TWF when reaching next level)Deeds :
1. Pistol Whip
1. Lock and load (Didn't see that you don't need a free hand, cool !)
2. Gun Kata
4. Desperado
6. Hack and ShootReloading time : Move action. Double reload if 1 grit spent.
Innovation :
- Alchemical powder (acid) (x12 shots) (Would probably have chosen something else, like Entangler...)16 000
+2 Dex, +2 Wis
8 000
(Pistol +1)x2
4 000
Bullets x100
3900
Powder x100 (crafted)
3650
+ 1 Mithral Chain shirt
1400
Cloak of resistance +1
400
Cure Light Wound lvl.1 Potion (x4)
200
Various adventurer equipment, money, awesomeness.
Alright, here it comes.
Overall, I like it. To keep myself from becoming a broken record (again), I'm going to only focus on what I see issues with, here. If it's not here, I either like it, or I don't see too much issue with it.
Just looking at the table, I have to say how much I enjoy the resemblance to the Fighter. The gunslinger is a fighter alternate, and it should look as such.
Grit: No "Wis or Cha"? You make me sad. :( See? Honestly, I think it should be either or. Please? Pretty please?
Also, the more I look at it, the more I think that Grit should just be a set total, no regen. I'll reference again the magus' arcane pool, which has the same amount, but doesn't regen.
Deeds:
Cold stare: Should either be an always-on thing, or when the 'slinger has a gun drawn and makes an intimidate check, not an action.
Dazzling Shot: Like Maxx said, the wording is weird.
Deadeye Shot: The wording is weird here, too. I get what you're going for:
As a standard action, the gunslinger can make a single attack against a target outside of her weapon's first range increment, but within its second. This attack is resolved against the target's touch AC. The gunslinger still takes the -2 penalty to her attack. At 10th level, she can use this deed against a target within 3 range increments, and at 16th level, she can use this deed against a target within 4 range increments.
Something like that, right?
Desperate Shot: Like Maxx said.
Double Shot: Perhaps this should only be usable with a multi-barreled weapon? Makes a little more sense, thematically.
Hack and Shoot: This one's a little iffy, to me. Why would anyone take it? I see nowhere in the rules where it says one can not use TWF with a ranged weapon and a melee weapon. So why would anyone take a deed that forces them to use their attacks in a certain way? Just for to negate AoO's? I think that should be the whole deed, right there.
Keep Them Dancing: Is the attack itself supposed to not provoke an AoO, like normal? Or is the action of spending grit not provoke?
Piercing Shot: Should say Full Round Action, not attack. Just for clarity's sake.
Pistol-Whip: Why does having a bayonet attached to the barrel of the gun make the butt of the gun hit harder? The one size category larger thing doesn't make much sense to me.
Resolute Shot: I have to disagree with Maxx, here. I think only being able to make this shot with a rifled long gun is PERFECT.
Startling Shot: This one needs to cost grit, otherwise it's too powerful.
Innovations:
Let me start off by saying that the level requirement on most of these needs to be adjusted. At 3rd level, only 3 innovations are available. Alchemical Powder, which is arguably more powerful than some of the ones that require 7th level, Reliability, and Greater Bore, which is again, arguably more powerful than some of the 7th level ones. I'll spoiler a list of the innovations and where I think the requirements should be.
Alchemical Shot: 7
Breech Loader: 3
Cannon: 11*
Cartridge*
Deadly Menace: 15*
Efficacious Dose*
Entangler: 7
Greater Bore: 11
Gunbow: 7
Healing Powder*
More Dakka: 3
Reliability: 3
Revolver: 7
Rifled Barrel: 3
Steadfastness: 11
* = See below.
And now, for the issues I see.
Breech Loader: This is how it is spelled. Where the barrel meets the stock is called the breech. Grar. :P
Cannon: I've already argued against an innovation that allows one to change between two different kinds of guns. Making a hand cannon, or a blunderbuss, should be PERMANENT. If it was, I would say that the level requirement could be 7 (see above).
Cartridge: I'm thinking this one might be more of a deed, with the new innovation system.
Deadly Menace: Eeek. Anything that increases crit range AND stacks with Imp. Crit. is bad bad bad news, especially when there are other class features that expand it and stack as well. Like Maxx said, it could easily get out of hand...
Efficacious Dose: Again, think this might work better as a deed.
Entangler: This is great! As a suggestion: Unusable with rifling. Firing a net from a smoothbore weapon makes sense. Firing from a rifle, not so much. The modern line-throwers that rescue crews use to fire a rope to people trapped in the middle of rivers and such are smoothbore firearms.
Greater Bore: Still has the last line in it from the previous innovation system.
Healing Powder: Again, this seems like a deed under the new system.
Gut Instinct: I'm with Maxx, here. Probably should just be dropped, especially with the Brave and Tough deed.
Gun Training: Perhaps this should be changed to be closer to the Fighter's version, but choosing a certain type of firearm, instead of a group of weapons. Either way works. /shrug
Innovation Mastery:
Silencer: Knock the Perception DC down and make it set. DC 10 or 15 sounds the most appropriate.
Blunder Blast: Like Maxx said, this one doesn't make sense. Combining spread effects with direct attacks doesn't really work...
So all in all, most of the issues are minor, though there are a few big ones. Still, it's getting better! :)
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Resolute Shot: I have to disagree with Maxx, here. I think only being able to make this shot with a rifled long gun is PERFECT.
With the More Dakka innovation accessible asap, I agree. Without, it is a bit harder to play with pistols until later levels.
Pistol-Whip: Why does having a bayonet attached to the barrel of the gun make the butt of the gun hit harder? The one size category larger thing doesn't make much sense to me.
Guess it's to allow melee fighting without sucking too much on damages... maybe the bayonet could do 1d6 19-20x2 in melee like a short sword ?
Let me start off by saying that the level requirement on most of these needs to be adjusted. At 3rd level, only 3 innovations are available. Alchemical Powder, which is arguably more powerful than some of the ones that require 7th level, Reliability, and Greater Bore, which is again, arguably more powerful than some of the 7th level ones. I'll spoiler a list of the innovations and where I think the requirements should be.
I saw the same thing. It's really hard to get a bit of diversity right now when trying any build without having to wait level 7.
Alchemical Powder: This is still written for the old innovation system.
I suggest to make the gun into an Alchemical Gun with the first level of innovation. Freduncio's writting on how it could work seemed perfect to me, clearer and shorter. It still gives the ability to create some shots/day (less than now could be better), but it really changes the gun itself.
Hack and Shoot: This one's a little iffy, to me. Why would anyone take it? I see nowhere in the rules where it says one can not use TWF with a ranged weapon and a melee weapon. So why would anyone take a deed that forces them to use their attacks in a certain way? Just for to negate AoO's? I think that should be the whole deed, right there.
Because the only other "way" to do the same is Point-Blank Mastery, that needs Weapon Specialization beforehand. And this isn't really a feet you can afford, as you can see in my Gun-Kata John Preston build (seriously btw, I made a FREAKIN' working ecclesiast grammaton while nobody thought it could be possible, why don't I see more underpants getting wet with all kind of substances ??!). It's more of a transition deed to duplicate partly the effect of freely shooting in close-range, that you change once you got P-BM. :)
Ok, now for some hunter love, here is Erghunn Darkstealer, a powerful bounty hunter that always gets his target dead or alive, but prefers to get them when there is the most gold at stake - and usually, powerful people want traitors alive. I'm using Odentin suggestions on innovations for the build. The riffled barrel range upgrade is maybe too much, but after all you've got to choose it and thus it's another innovation you don't get if you do so...
Erghunn Darkstealer, Gunslinger lvl 6 (Point-buy 20), Bounty Hunter for the Bounty Appreciation Council :
12
18+2 = 20
14
8
13+1+2 = 16
12HP: 5d10 + 28
=> 60Init:
3+5=+8AC 10 + 5 dex + 5 armor => 20/15/15
Saves: Fort. (2+2+1=5), Ref. (5+5+1=15), Will (2+3+1=6);DMD: 10+6+5+1 = 22
BAB: +6/+1 (+5 Dex. ; +1 With Muskets. ; +2 on rifled barrel)
BMC: 6+0 = +6Attack: +1 "Hunter" Musket (2d6+6 20x4, +1d6 sneak attack, 1-2 misfire) (80 feet)
+15/+10
"Lucky last resort" MWK Musket (2d6+5 20x4, +1d6 sneak attack, 1 misfire) (40 feet)
+14/+9Grit pool:
3+3=6Traits :
Bully
World traveler (Sense Motive)Feats :
H. Combat expertise
1. Extra Deed
G. Quick Draw
3. Point-Blank Shot
5. Extra Innovation
(7. Improved Trip when reaching next level for bolas and Called Shot)Deeds :
1. Cold Stare
1. Lock and load
2. Called Shot
4. Devious Shot
6. Resolute ShotReloading time : Move action. Double reload if 1 grit spent.
Innovations :
Musket +1 =
- Rifled Barrel
- Breach Loader
(- Reliability at level 7, or replace rifled barrel for More Dakka, and add Entangler.)
MWK Musket =
- Breach Loader
- Reliability
(- Remove Breach Loader at level 7, replace with Revolver.)
(- Entangler at level 7, bolas or net loaded. If this needs a soft cannon, remove Reliability at lower levels for More Dakka.)16 000
+2 Dex, +2 Wis
8 000
Musket +1
6 000
Musket MwK
4 200
Bullets x50 lead, x50 rubber (-2 to hit, non-lethal damage)
4 100
Powder x100 (crafted)
3 850
+ 1 Mithral Chain shirt
1 600
Cloak of resistance +1
600
Cure Light Wound lvl.1 Potion (x4)
400
Various adventurer equipment, money, gritty cigarettes, awesomeness.
As you can see, it allows for a lethal AND non-lethal build. Houseruled rubber shots, but you can easily replace for anything that allows to do so.
Opinions ?
How is rifling too powerful? It's a +2 to attack, more consistent damage, and a range increase (from abysmal to acceptable).
Also, I recommended that Entagler not be usable with rifled guns. Missed that in your writeup.
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It's corrected, I forgot about this. It's still a bit hard to add any innovation on the weapon at lower level without always get the same recurring builds, but after all, alchemist is much the same, you always go the mutagen -or- the bomb way with close to no differences in each path from an alchemist to another one.
Maxximilius & Odentin,
I am looking at all your sugesstions, and taking them all into account. I hope to post changes and fixes in the next few days. I'll keep you posted. If things seem relatively OK after our hashing out things, I'll likely post a v.1.4.1 on my mediafire. +1 for the suggestions so far.
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Mmmh... maybe it could be better to just wait for the next round of Gunslinger playtest before doing any modification. At least, change suggestions are visible on the comments. Hope this thread is seen before the new gunslinger is wrote, considering that the designers announce was made some hours after the 1.4 was out...
Sounds good. I'll just post changes here, then make those changes if they'er good on my primary document. Then we'll wait for the 2nd playtest.
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I agree. In the case the 1.4 was available too late and wasn't seriously considered by the designers before rewritting the Gunslinger, we would at least know in one post what to change and what to keep while adaptating the new official beta Gunslinger. (Not to say it will be bad, but even if it gets better and adds some interesting and cool things, it will still lack some cool ideas from 1.4. Just an example, if you can't melee in a build without sucking like hell, then there is something more needed... yes, we could still houserule it, but I think the actual versatility should be kept all the while by making it simpler and shorter).
As I doubt there will be a third round for the class, we will at least have all the raw materials needed to suggest what the official final gunslinger should look like. Maybe the 1.4 will not be taken into account, but the official beta plus the new weapons from the second round will allow for the 1.5 good materials and a good visibility from the beginning, after the beta has been playtested, and issues/deeds/innovations, adapted.
And at least we'll be sure that the last one is gonna be read and considered for the final version.
As it is right now, it still seems a bit like a variant of Fighter in case this will be one in the final UC book, but I believe this should be considered like a new class. The mechanic and fluff is different enough from any other class, while staying in the Paizo logic of heavy customization and points/discoveries/talents mechanic. This one even got the three at once !
Hey, I did some number crunching and here's the gist of the Innovation and Deed availability by level (some got moved to different levels according to previous suggestions):
Level 1 14 total = All Sides, Brave adn Tough, Cold Stare, Covering Shot, Dazzling Shot, Dive for Cover, Great Innovator, Gunslinger Feat, Lock and Load, Pistol Whip, Quick repair, Rapid Fire, Smoking Guns, Utility Shot
Level 2 2 total = Alchemical Burst, Gun Kata
Level 4 2 total = Deadeye Shot, Devious Shot
Level 6 5 total = Hack and Shoot, Resolute Shot, Rolling Shot, Silver Bullet, Trick Shot
Level 8 4 total = Blind Shot, Called Shot, Guns Akimbo, Scattergun Opera
Level 10 9 total = Desperado, Double Shot, eagle Eye, Keep Them Dancing, Piercing Shot, Scattergun Nightmare, Sharpshooter, Sniper Shot, Wounding Shot
Level 12 3 total = Desperate Shot, Double Tap, Expert Loading
Level 14 5 total = Gunslinger's Curse, One More Shot, Second Chance, Sentinel, Startling Shot
Level 16 3 total = Blaze of Glory, Marked for Death, Stunning Shot
Level 18 2 total = Deadly Shot, True Grit
Any suggestions about moving certain deeds to a different level to even out numbers or according to power level balance, let me know.
Here's the innovations:
Level 3 5 total = Alchemical Powder, Efficacious Doses, Greater Bore, More Dakka, Reliability
Level 7 9 total = Alchemical Shot, Breech Loader, Cannon (Blunderbuss), Cartridge, Entangler, Gunbow, Healing Powder, Rifled Barrel, Steadfastness
Level 11 3 total = Cannon (Range), Revolver, *Silencer
Level 15 3 total = Deadly Menace, *Magazine and Clip, *Ray Gun
Level 19: Innovation Mastery Alchemical Cannon, Blunder Blast, Peacemaker (I thought it was good to have only a few choices here, one each for typical styles/firearm types, such as blunderbuss, alchemical path, and pistols/musket)
*I decided to move these from Innovation Mastery to lower levels, since they weren't necessarily on par powerwise with some of the others. Also, some would be nicer to have at lower levels. Once your 19th level, you're already winding down your character's playability.
So let me know what you think with this distribution too. As for the Alchemical (powder/shot) innovations, Maxx has suggested using/replacing them with "freduncio's" Alchemical Firearm and Utility Alchemical Shot from his suggested thread. Maxx, do we want to use them as is, or make some changes? And, where do we want to place them? Suggestions?
That's all for now. I'm currently working on all the suggested fixes from the various posts above. Hopefully by this weekend I'll post them here. Maybe a piece at a time so we can examine a few in a more focused manner?
Goodnight All!
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I like the changes you made. It seems that whatever the build you want, you always get something useful when reaching the next Deed step. :)
For innovations, I think Entangler should be a level 3 innovation that permanently changes a barrel as to shoot a net or a bolas, but don't get anymore the capacity to shoot normal bullets ; instead of an added thrower on top of the weapon. So you have to take More Dakka if you want to get it at lower levels, or else your only weapon's barrel becomes a non-lethal one. Perfect for a hunter that could quickly get two muskets, one for damage and the other for capture, or a pistoleer with one bolas and another normal shot.
The only issue I have with Resolute Shot is that it allows to do massive damage with only one bullet when including alchemical innovations, since you normally got few bullets as a matter of balance, but that with this deed, they inflict several attacks with one bullet. Should alchemical damage only apply to the first hit of a resolute shot ?
Concerning Alchemical Powder/Shot, I think the following is pretty balanced, it's almost the same than what we wrote for the 1.3 and 1.4, except clearer and shorter. Maybe we should dump the critical effects shots and see if the other innovations for increased damage on shot are really of any use, since the weapon is pretty much x4 on a critical hit and that you made some cunning suggestions on how to improve damage and reloading time, that were the true issues about the class. A shame I don't know how to calculate DPR... as I said in another thread, ideally, the Gunslinger should hit less hard per round (or harder at short range in first increment since it is even easier to hit), but harder per bullet than an archer. :/
The number of bullets is shorter than the alchemist variant and the original alchemical powder, and depends on a MAD (and even dump) stat for a "classic" gunslinger. The two should be level 3 innovations.
Alchemical Firearm (Ex): The gunslinger can modify any firearm into an alchemical firearm with one day of work. This alchimical weapon can now shoot alchemical bullets ; this modification takes an innovation emplacement, is permanent and can't be changed. The gunslinger also discovers how to craft alchemical bullets. She can craft each day a number of bullets equal to 1/2 her class level + her Intelligence modifier (minimum 1), this takes five minutes of work (but see below) at negligible cost from a single dose of powder and a bullet. An alchemical bullet includes the bullet and the powder required for a shot, and so is self-sufficient, activated on a hit. Alchemical bullets remain active until used or their power fades after 24h, but any attempt to create more bullets has a cumulative 20% risk to make all shots become instable and explode, creating a 5 feet radius centered on the Gunslinger of 1d6 corresponding elemental damage/bullet, without save. There are four types of alchemical bullets:
Acid Bullet: Fashioned with a corrosive coating, the acid is activated on impact. The bullet deals +1d6 alchemical acid damage.
Fire Bullet: Fashioned with a phosphore core, the bullet explodes on impact, creating a short but intense burst of fire. The bullet deals +1d6 alchemical fire damage.
Electrical Bullet: Fashioned with a charged natural magnetic node at its head, it discharges on impact. The bullet deals +1d6 alchemical electrical damage.
Ice Bullet: Fashioned with a concentrated eternal ice jacket, the shot activates on impact, quickly frozing the imediate area. The bullet deals +1d6 alchemical cold damage.
The gunslinger must choose at creation the type of the alchemical bullet, but at higher levels she can create a bullet with more than one property. At 8th level she can created a bullet with 2 properties, at 13th 3 properties, and at 18th 4 properties. Each property crafted in the bullet has its own cost and time. Then, a fire/ice/electrical bullet takes 15 minutes to be made and counts as 3 alchemical bullets.Utility Alchemical Shot (Ex): this discovery adds a special effect to your bullets, in a fashion to interact with the battlefield.
Acid Bullet: Your highly corrosive acid shots ignore up to 1 points of hardness per level (max 10) from objects, allowing you to easily interact with any material that could impede your progression, like a rope holding a drawbridge. This falls to half when trying to destroy metal objects.
Fire Bullet: Your bullets make any inflammable material catch fire when hit.
Electrical Bullet: By attaching a steel wire to an eletrical bullet (5 gp/feet, 10 hardness, 10 HP), you can use it as a rope with a grappling hook at the end on any metallic surface. On GM fiat, surfaces soft enough to let the bullet penetrate can be used as anchor to this shot. The bullet and the wire can support up to 200 lbs in ideal conditions.
Cold Bullet: By shooting on the ground (AC 10), you create a 5 feet sheet of ice that impedes progression. On the first round the square is considered difficult terrain, except for charge. On the second round the square is treated as if touched by a Grease spell during a number of rounds equal to the alchemical gunsmith Intelligence modifier. Of alchemical origin, this sheet of ice can't be dispelled but can be melted by high temperatures, like those created by Fireball.
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By the way, you should look at this, there are funny ideas or depictions of actual innovations in this article (though the video about hollow point is a bit disgusting, especially since I don't like guns and even less hunting). The number one looks like a level 19 upgrade for the musket... xD =
http://www.cracked.com/article_19038_the-7-most-stupidly-overpowered-huntin g-weapons.html
Alright, I'm gonna take a look at innovations. Deeds might come later, I'm not sure yet.
Alchemical EVERYTHING: This needs to require a higher level. Essentially, it gives the slinger a free flaming/frost/etc weapon. something no other class should even be able to afford until 5th level, according to the standard WBL chart. Paladins get an ability that allows them to add a similar effect to their weapons at 5, as well, though not constantly. Giving it to the 'slinger at 3rd level seems a bit overpowered.
This one belongs at 7th level.
Greater Bore: Again, this one belongs at 7th level, or 11th. It's a big upgrade, possibly bigger than anything else available at 3rd. It sits along the same power scale as rifling, which isn't available until 7th.
Breech Loader: Not sure why this is at 7th. It doesn't seem to be all that powerful. Though I guess I can see how a build could use it, along with cartridge, to make reloading a non-issue at 3rd level.
Cartridge and Efficacious Dose: Still think these should be deeds. Perhaps lvl 6 deeds?
Steadfastness: Again, this should be higher. 11th level at least. Reliability might work better at 7th, as well.
Revolver: I honestly don't see why this is so high up. 7th level works perfectly for this one. With a Rapid Shot build and a revolver pistol, you're still out of shots in 2 rounds, forcing you to reload.
Also, I had the thought, what about the reload time on a revolver? I don't want to see anyone reloading all 6 chambers as a free action. Perhaps a move action to reload a chamber (doesn't stack with cartridge), and rapid reload allows you to reload 3 chambers as a move action? Breech loader also shouldn't be usable with revolver.
Silencer, Magazine, and Ray gun: No. Just no. As Master Innos, these worked. They're the obscure, modern, fantastic innovations that could only be applied once to a gun. They belong there, or not at all.
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Alright, I'm gonna take a look at innovations. Deeds might come later, I'm not sure yet.
Alchemical EVERYTHING: This needs to require a higher level. Essentially, it gives the slinger a free flaming/frost/etc weapon. something no other class should even be able to afford until 5th level, according to the standard WBL chart. Paladins get an ability that allows them to add a similar effect to their weapons at 5, as well, though not constantly. Giving it to the 'slinger at 3rd level seems a bit overpowered.
This one belongs at 7th level.
I agree. It was at lower level to compensate the supposed lack of damage, but I'm running little DPR tests with builds and a tool I found on the forums to see how it's coming up, and I think the gunslinger don't need these so quickly. With a sniper build, it gets very ugly at mid-levels since you shoot from easily something like 120 feet, and it's still the first range increment... It seems way too powerful with all these ways to improve the guns to do a valid comparison. You still get less shots than an archer, but you almost always hit from far away, and hard.
Uh...anyone know how many shot or doses of black powder the gunslinger can craft per day?
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I made these boring calculs based on official rules, but after like 20 minutes, I'm wondering if this souldn't simply be something like (full Craft check)/5, rounded down... >_>
Or... let the gunslinger use the normal rules. There are enough innovations and tweaks made to allow him to not spend too much on powder for shots. Suggesting the class level as bonus to craft was enough for now, I guess. I say, let's wait what the next gunslinger version will propose about this. ;)
So at level 1, with 1 point in craft, +1 from class bonus, +2 from masterwork tool, +2 because of one hour of quiet work during the day, if the dice rolls 6, it's one dose made for 3 gp of raw materials ; and if the dice rolls 20, it's 4 doses + 80% of another one for 15 gp.
At level 6, with 3 points in Craft (alchemy) + 6 from class bonus, +2 from MWK tools and +2 from quiet environment, if the dice rolls 12, it's 25 x 20 = 500 ; 5 doses of black powder for 15 gp.
If we consider that Black Powder is easier to craft (DC 15 minimum), you get :
At level 1, with 1 point in craft +1 from class bonus +4 MWK/quiet work, if the dice rolls 10, it's 2 doses made for 3 gp and 40% of a third.
At level 6, with 3 points in Craft (alchemy) + 6 from class bonus and +4 from diverses, if the dice rolls 5, it's 18 x 15 = 270 ; 2 doses of black powder for 15 gp and 70% of a third.
Alright, my updates and changes will be posted tomorrow. Goodnight! :D
Edit: OK, I lied. Here they are.
Here’s the revised Deeds and Innovations numbers by level after I did some shuffling:
Level 1 7 total = All Sides, Brave and Tough, Cold Stare, Dive for Cover, Gunslinger Feat, Pistol Whip, Utility Shot
Level 2 6 total = Covering Shot, Dazzling Shot, Gun Kata, Lock and Load, Quick Repair, Smoking Guns
Level 4 6 total = Deadeye Shot, Devious Shot, Great Innovator, Hack and Shoot, Healing Powder, Rapid Fire
Level 6 6 total = Blind Shot, Double Shot, Guns Akimbo, Rolling Shot, Silver Bullet, Trick Shot
Level 8 6 total = Alchemical Burst, Called Shot, Keep Them Dancing, Resolute Shot, Scattergun Opera, Wounding Shot
Level 10 5 total = Desperado, Eagle Eye, Expert Loading, Scattergun Nightmare, Sharpshooter
Level 12 5 total = Desperate Shot, Double Tap, One More Shot, Piercing Shot, Sniper Shot
Level 14 4 total = Gunslinger's Curse, Second Chance, Sentinel, Startling Shot
Level 16 3 total = Blaze of Glory, Marked for Death, Stunning Shot
Level 18 2 total = Deadly Shot, True Grit
Here's the innovations:
Level 3 5 total = Breech Loader, Gunbow, More Dakka, Ranged Sight, Utility Gun
Level 7 5 total = Alchemical Gun, Cannon (Blunderbuss), Revolver, Rifled Barrel, Reliability
Level 11 5 total = Cannon (Range), Greater Bore, *Silencer, Steadfastness, Utility Alchemical Shot
Level 15 3 total = *Alchemical Ray Gun, Deadly Menace, *Magazine and Clip
Level 19 Innovation Mastery: 3 total = Alchemical Cannon, Blunder Blast, Peacemaker (I thought it was good to have only a few choices here, one each for typical styles/firearm types, such as blunderbuss, alchemical path, and pistols/musket)
To Maxximiliius and Odentin:
The following are responses, comments and changes to your suggestions. SORRY, it's pretty long.
"Firearm" = Glad you like it.
Deeds :
"Advanced Firearm Training (Ex)" = It actually meant to allow the gunslinger could select further training in a single gun, above and beyond that given by Gun Training. However, since they can select the Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization trees, I’ve deleted it altogether. A bit too much overkill in the firearm expert realm.
Here’s the change to Alchemical Burst. And yes, it is similar to a fireball, but no as big, nor as powerful.
Here’s the Cold Stare changes.
"Dazzling Shot (Ex)" = Done. I also took out the “Performing this deed does not allow the gunslinger to regain grit from confirming a critical hit.” A round or 2 of dazzled isn’t so bad in conjunction with a critical hit. Other classes can do worse in a round. It now reads
Here’s Deadeye Shot, much better wording thanks to Odentin.
"Desperate Shot (Ex)" = Done.
Here’s the Double Shot changes, and I agree with you Odentin. I also moved it 6th level.
"Gunslinger Feat" = +1.
I’ve now made Gun Kata accessible at any level, with only the Pistol-Whip deed as a prerequisite. Does that help? See, I’m glad someone out there with the time is able to playtest or try these things out.
I find its nice to have others reading over things after spending lots of time reading over things myself, cause I tend to miss things after a while. I think this is how it’s supposed to work.
Moved this to 8th level and reworded.
How’s this? Moved it up to 12th level too.
I’ve made the following changes.
Here’s my revised Resolute Shot. I moved it to 8th level, and made it so, if the gunslinger has the Alchemical Gun innovation, energy damage inflicted by it is applied only to the first attack roll.
However, on a direct hit with her single attack roll, the target takes normal damage. Although she discharges no more shots during her turn, the gunslinger rolls the remaining attacks of her full-attack action to determine the total damage dice for her Resolute Shot. For each subsequent attack roll that hits, the gunslinger rolls damage normally and adds it to her Resolute Shot’s total damage. If any of these subsequent attack rolls result in a “miss” or a “misfire”, they deal no damage. Any damage reduction that the target may possess is applied once the total damage of the gunslinger’s Resolute Shot.
If the gunslinger has Rapid Shot, she gains one additional attack roll at her highest attack bonus. If it hits, she rolls damage normally and adds it to her Resolute Shot’s total damage. If the gunslinger has Manyshot, she gains an additional attack roll at her highest attack bonus. If this attack hits, she again rolls damage normally and adds it to her Resolute Shot’s total damage. No additional shots are discharged during extra attacks granted by Multishot or Rapid Shot, and only determine extra damage dice for the gunslinger’s Resolute Shot’s total damage.
If the gunslinger is using the Alchemical Gun innovation, any energy damage dealt by the shot is added to the first attack roll only. The gunslinger must have the Rifled Barrel innovation and be at least 8th level to select this deed.
Here’s the Starling Shot changes.
• Shower of Sparks: The gunslinger discharges her firearm into a campfire or similar blaze and makes an attack roll against an AC 10. On a hit, you scatter sparking embers into the air in a 5-foot radius. Anyone caught in the radius must make a Reflex save (DC 10 + ½ the gunslinger’s level + the gunslinger’s Dexterity modifier) or gain the blinded condition for 1 round. On a miss, there is a 20% chance the shot ricochets and hits someone within the firearm’s first range increment.
Innovations:
Alchemical *everything* = I used “freduncio’s” Alchemical Firearm and Utility Alchemical Shot and made the following minor changes.
• Acid Shot: Fashioned with a corrosive coating, the acid is activated on impact and deals 1d6 points of alchemical acid damage.
• Cold Shot: Fashioned with a concentrated eternal ice jacket, the shot activates on impact, quickly freezing the immediate area, and deals 1d6 points of alchemical cold damage.
• Electrical Shot: Fashioned with a charged natural magnetic node at its head, the shot discharges on impact and deals 1d6 points of alchemical electrical damage.
• Fire Shot: Fashioned with a phosphorous core, the shot explodes on impact, and creates a short but intense burst of fire that deals 1d6 points of alchemical fire damage.
At the time of its creation, the gunslinger must select the type of alchemical shot she will craft. However, at higher levels, the gunslinger can create a shot with more than one alchemical property. At 10th level, the gunslinger can add 2 properties to a shingle alchemical shot; at 13th she can add 3 properties; and at 16th she can add 4 properties. Each property requires 5 minutes of work, and a negligible amount of powder. Thus, an alchemical shot with the cold, electrical, and fire properties would require 15 minutes to craft, and counts as 3 against her total number of alchemical shots she can craft per day. The gunslinger must be at least 7th level to select this innovation.
• Acid Shot: The gunslinger’s highly corrosive acid shots ignore up to 1 points of hardness per level from objects, to maximum of 10, allowing her to easily interact with any material that could impede her progression, such as a rope holding up a drawbridge. If the gunslinger attempts to destroy metal objects, amount of hardness the acid shot ignores is reduced to 1 point every 2 levels, to a maximum of 5.
• Cold Shot: By discharging a cold shot at the ground (AC 10), the gunslinger creates a 5 ft. × 5 ft. sheet of ice that impedes progression. On the first round the square is considered difficult terrain, except for a charge. On the second round the square is treated as if a grease spell were cast in the area, which remains for a number of rounds equal to the gunslinger’s Intelligence modifier. Being of alchemical origin, this sheet of ice cannot be dispelled but can be melted by high temperatures, such as those created by a fireball spell.
• Electrical Shot: By attaching a steel wire to an electrical shot and discharging ti at an iron-based metallic surface, the gunslinger can use it as a rope and grappling hook. If the GM deems it allowable, any surface that is soft enough for the electrical shot to penetrate can be used to anchor the shot. The shot and wire can support up to 200 lbs. in ideal conditions. The wire costs 5 gp per feet of length, has a hardness of 10, and has 10 hp.
• Fire Shot: The gunslinger’s fire shot causes any inflammable material to catch fire for a number of rounds equal to the gunslinger’s Intelligence modifier.
The gunslinger must have the Alchemical Gun innovation and be at least 11th level to select this innovation.
Quote: "Breach Loader" = Nice ! I admit I would like to see a way to reload fast enough pistols and do TWF in the same round, this without dropping weapons (and so be able to reload without hands), or by doing it fast enough.
Slight change to add description and flavor. Also see Lock and Load
Changes
• Blunderbuss Cannon: The blunderbuss cannon alters the firearm’s discharge area, but at the cost of range and attack speed. The firearm’s range is decreased by 10 feet for a pistol, or by 20 feet for a musket, and its damage changes to that of a burst effect. However, the gunslinger’s firearm misfire range is increased by 2. The blunderbuss cannon cannot deal precision-based damage. A gunslinger must be at least 7th level to select this innovation.
• Range Cannon: The range cannon dramatically improves the power and range of her firearm, but at the cost of precision and attack speed. The firearm’s range increases by 20 feet. In addition, the cannon’s damage increases to 2d10 for a pistol, and 3d8 for a musket. However, the gunslinger takes a -2 penalty to her attack rolls with that particular firearm. This innovation does not stack with the Greater Bore or Rifled Barrel innovations. The gunslinger must be at least 11th level to select this innovation.
"Cartridge/Efficacious Dose" = I put these into the Following feature.
Cartridges: The gunslinger has developed a process by which she can more quickly and efficiently reload her firearm. The gunslinger can create special paper cartridges, pre-packed with black powder and shot. When used, these cartridges improve the gunslinger’s reloading time by one action–a standard action to a move action, a move action to a swift action, and a swift action to a free action. The gunslinger can create a number of cartridges per day equal to her gunslinger level + her Dexterity modifier.
Efficacious Doses: A gunslinger’s process for crafting black powder is greatly improved. Whenever the gunslinger makes a Craft check to craft doses of powder, for every 5 she beats her check by she creates 1 extra dose at no cost. In addition, the number of powder doses the gunslinger can craft per day increases by 5.
Here’s the changes.
“Greater Bore” = I moved it from 3rd level to 11th level. A gunslinger enlarges the size of both her firearm barrel and shot. The damage of a gunslinger’s shot improves from 1d8 to 1d10 for a pistol, and from 1d12 to 2d8 for a musket. If the gunslinger has the Rifled Barrel innovation, her shot damage improves from 2d4 to 3d4 for a pistol, and from 2d6 to 3d6 for a musket. The gunslinger can create a number of greater shot per day equal to the gunslinger’s level + the gunslinger’s Dexterity modifier. The gunslinger must be at least 11th level to select this innovation.
"Gunbow" = Done; also moved it to 3rd level instead.
I also removed Healing Powder from Innovations and made it a Deed.
I added the following to the Entangler innovation, removed its level requirement, and changed its name.
• Bola: The gunslinger loads a bola into her firearm and makes a ranged trip attack roll with a -2 penalty against an opponent. If the attack hits, the gunslinger follows the description of the Trip combat maneuver (p. 201 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook). The range for a bola launched in this manner is 30 feet. If the gunslinger has the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bola), she ignores the -2 penalty to her attack roll.
• Grapple Hook: The gunslinger loads a rope-tethered grappling hook and makes a ranged attack roll, treating the hook as a thrown weapon with a range increment of 30 feet. Objects with ample places to catch the hook are AC 5.
• Net: The gunslinger loads a specially folded net into her firearm and makes a ranged touch attack roll with a -2 penalty against an opponent. Once discharged, the net unfurls to encompass the target. If the attack hits, the target is entangled (see p. 147-148 of the Pathfinder’s Core Rulebook). The range for a net launched in this manner is 30 feet. If the gunslinger has the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Net), she ignores the -2 penalty to her attack roll.
"Magazine Clip" = Still think 15th level is where it belongs. I lowered the muskets magazine capacity to 12 instead of 16, and also changed the action type for changing out a clip from a free action to a swift action.
"Ray Gun" = Slight changes, including name, to fit the theme and innovation stream.
“Reliability” and “Steadfastness” = These were moved to 7th level and 11th level respectively. The magical versions of these (special magical weapon properties) require an 8th level and 12th level caster respectively. The gunslinger can get these on his own a level before a spellcaster can create them I think its only fair since it is really his domain.
Changed a bit.
Gut Instinct: I got rid of it, since there is the Brave and Tough deed.
Gun Training: I made it exactly like the fighter's weapon training, but choosing a certain type of firearm instead of a group of weapons.
Innovation Mastery
Heres a bit of update.
Additional powder types can be combined to create multiple effects (see Alchemical Gun). Each alchemical energy type also has the following additional properties:
• Acid Shell: This shell deals an additional 2d4 points of acid damage for 2 rounds following its initial detonation, unless neutralized, after which time the acid becomes inert.
• Cold Shell: This shell also causes the target to become move at half speed for 2 round, due to the extreme could, unless a Fortitude save (see save DC above) is made.
• Electricity Shell: This shell causes the target to become staggered for 2 rounds.
• Fire Shell: This shell deals an additional 2d6 points of fire damage for 2 rounds, unless extinguished.
If the gunslinger has levels in the alchemist class, she can lob her bombs with greater range and accuracy. The gunslinger can create a number of alchemical shells per day equal to her Dexterity modifier. The gunslinger must have the Alchemical Gun innovation to select this master innovation.
Made the following change.
Fixed the direct hit thing.
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Phew, this is a big update ! :D
I'll only comment what I think needs a bit of rewording, looks weird or is just a really nice improvement, and why. If I don't say anything, consider it to look good enough for me :
Gun Training: I made it exactly like the fighter's weapon training, but choosing a certain type of firearm instead of a group of weapons.
Hack and Shoot
Keep them dancing
Does the ranged attack made in melee provoke opportunity ? I guess this one would work fine with the gun-kata chain = Melee attack/Ranged attack on melee/Ranged attack on melee + keep it dancing/Opportunity with off-hand + trip, target tripped,/Off-hand melee attack/Off-hand ranged attack against another enemy.
Pistol-whip
Piercing shot
Are the 1d6 precision damage ?
Resolute shot =>"If the gunslinger has Rapid Shot, she gains one additional attack roll at her highest attack bonus. If it hits, she rolls damage normally and adds it to her Resolute Shot’s total damage. If the gunslinger has Manyshot, she gains an additional attack roll at her highest attack bonus. If this attack hits, she again rolls damage normally and adds it to her Resolute Shot’s total damage. No additional shots are discharged during extra attacks granted by Multishot or Rapid Shot, and only determine extra damage dice for the gunslinger’s Resolute Shot’s total damage."
Sniper shot
Alchemical Gun :
Also, each alchemical shot should need one dose of powder and one bullet, as written now it seems this isn't the case. Is the "5 minutes" time for each bullet, or for all the works at once ? I suggest the following : "Crafting one alchemical bullet requires five minutes of work (see below) at negligible cost, from a single dose of powder and a shot."
Deadly Menace
Utility Gun :
I love it ! 8D
Maybe that there should be a feat allowing to use one innovation on your gun as if you were a gunslinger of your level. Batman ftw.Peacemaker
I definitely don't like this one. Free bull rush at each shot with massive bonuses (and strenght shouldn't even be taken into account for a ranged attack that isn't thrown) will only slow the game and be annoying.
Blunderblast
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Well, when Stephen Radney-MacFarland announced on two different topics that there would soon be a second round of playtest, like in "omg hold your breath it's coming now or before the end of the week", we pretty much decided to let the 1.4 link here, and to post all modifications on big recapitulative posts without doing a 1.5 .pdf before the beta gunslinger would be released. We were a bit afraid that this version wouldn't be overlooked, since it seemed like the beta official class was almost ready to post online, and that posting a 1.5 would have been a loss of time. After all, we could as well wait for the beta, and adapt the 1.4 with all the modifications we spoke about and the new official rules there will be, to propose something really up to date with the new rules and improvements the beta could give.
Seeing that the beta gunslinger isn't out for now, and that we had no confirmation from officials that the ideas on this topic were taken into account (actually the ideas of pretty much everyone who playtested, or suggested interesting and original deeds/mechanisms on Paizo's community), it's up to Elghinn to use his previous huge post about what will change from 1.4 to 1.5 and the suggestions I made on them to see if he wants to release a pdf update. I don't know if it's still time to do so though, if we want the designers to humbly take into considerations that there are freaking awesome ideas in there, and that we trust them to keep the best while number-crunching them to a nice balance. It's not all classes that allow you to build a working gun-kata master, and 1.5 much probably can. 8D
So I let Elghinn decide if he wants to release a 1.5 before the official beta is out. It would definitively give a better picture of the global community opinion, seeing all the modifications that were made in between from 1.4... if the beta isn't already pretty much decided. Since all modifications have been put there, it should be a bit faster to do. At best, sooner is better I guess !
If Elghinn decides that waiting for the beta should be better, you can use the .pdf and the the three previous posts to see what changes right now between 1.4, and what would be in a 1.5 pdf. ;)
When/Where did Stephen say there would be a beta coming out soon?
Admittedly, I haven't been keeping track of the gunslinger threads in a while. Can you provide a link?
-The Beast
Thankee Sai. Fingers crossed, eh?