Summon Eidolon Spell, in Wand, cast by UMD by Bard... What happens?


Rules Questions


3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required.

OK, so we have a Wand with Summon Eidolon in it. Someone with UMD picks it up and uses it. - Someone who is not a Summoner.

An Eidolon appears.

What are the stats of this Eidolon?

Dark Archive

"You open a rift between dimensions that summons your eidolon."

As the bard has no eidolon to summon, no eidolon appears.

Scarab Sages

Xraal wrote:

OK, so we have a Wand with Summon Eidolon in it. Someone with UMD picks it up and uses it. - Someone who is not a Summoner.

An Eidolon appears.

What are the stats of this Eidolon?

Interesting. I'd say that nothing happens.

The description says "...that summons your eidolon..." Since you don't have one, nothing happens.

I'd look at it the same way if there was a bard spell that enhanced bardic abilities. If a spell like that was in a wand and a rogue used it, the rogue wouldn't suddenly gain bardic abilities.


Xraal wrote:

OK, so we have a Wand with Summon Eidolon in it. Someone with UMD picks it up and uses it. - Someone who is not a Summoner.

The same thing as when they try to use a wand of heal mount, and don't have that class feature.

In other words, nothing.

-James


you wasted the value of am item that you could of sold for hard gold.....


Do weee OOOOOOoo

The ontological manifestation of your subconcious that you were trying to dial is imaginary, and cannot be reached at this time. Please gain one or more levels in the Summoner class and try again.

Scarab Sages

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Do weee OOOOOOoo

The ontological manifestation of your subconcious that you were trying to dial is imaginary, and cannot be reached at this time. Please gain one or more levels in the Summoner class and try again.

+1 lol


james maissen wrote:
Xraal wrote:

OK, so we have a Wand with Summon Eidolon in it. Someone with UMD picks it up and uses it. - Someone who is not a Summoner.

The same thing as when they try to use a wand of heal mount, and don't have that class feature.

In other words, nothing.

-James

I see... I have now read that spell as well, and the type of spells are new to me.

However, a spell cast from a Wand has a fixed CL and the one putting the spell in there has to have access to any required abilities to cast the spell in the first place.

A Wand does not check to see who is holding it. It simply fires the predetermined magical energy and stuff happens.

If your argument holds any merit, then the Wand would simply force the user to make another UMD check to emulate a class feature, in your case the ability to call a special mount, and in mine the ability to summon an Eidolon.

For the mount, the spell can only heal a special mount, so if you fake that class ability with respect to a specific horse you are standing next to, the wand should work. - If you want to get complicated about it, the mount can make a UMD check too, to fake being a special mount.

Some mounts can do that. :-p

As for faking being a Summoner, an Eidolon must appear. If it is indeed Your Eidolon, then you get to design one whenever you use the Wand to summon it.

If the Wand is not able to test who holds it, then it should summon an Eidolon as designed by the creator of the Wand! - If that very same Eidolon is already present on our plane, the charge will fail. - If it is not, perhaps the Summoner is dead, then it will appear.

Point me to the place in the rules that support your arguments, if you persist, that nothing happens.

Shadow Lodge

You can fake being a summoner all day long, the fact is you have no eidolon to summon so it won't work.

Similarly a wand with the ranger's spell that lets you turn someone into your favored enemy doesn't give you a mythical favored enemy bonus because you have no favored enemy class ability to take advantage of it.

The place in the rules is the phrase "Your Eidolon" of which you have none.

Dark Archive

Xraal wrote:
james maissen wrote:
Xraal wrote:

OK, so we have a Wand with Summon Eidolon in it. Someone with UMD picks it up and uses it. - Someone who is not a Summoner.

The same thing as when they try to use a wand of heal mount, and don't have that class feature.

In other words, nothing.

-James

Point me to the place in the rules that support your arguments, if you persist, that nothing happens.

Point us to the place in the rules that don't support the argument. You cannot use Magic Weapon unless there's a manufactured weapon (or a pair of monk's hands). No manner of UMD will allow you to pretend there is a weapon to use the spell on. That's no different from Summon Eidolon.

And even without that, the designers have often said something about assuming words mean the general term ("your") unless specifically noted otherwise.


How about "rules strife for balance and are not meant to be exploited for strong companions you shouldn´t have"


Xraal wrote:
james maissen wrote:
Xraal wrote:

OK, so we have a Wand with Summon Eidolon in it. Someone with UMD picks it up and uses it. - Someone who is not a Summoner.

The same thing as when they try to use a wand of heal mount, and don't have that class feature.

In other words, nothing.

-James

I see... I have now read that spell as well, and the type of spells are new to me.

However, a spell cast from a Wand has a fixed CL and the one putting the spell in there has to have access to any required abilities to cast the spell in the first place.

A Wand does not check to see who is holding it. It simply fires the predetermined magical energy and stuff happens.

If your argument holds any merit, then the Wand would simply force the user to make another UMD check to emulate a class feature, in your case the ability to call a special mount, and in mine the ability to summon an Eidolon.

For the mount, the spell can only heal a special mount, so if you fake that class ability with respect to a specific horse you are standing next to, the wand should work. - If you want to get complicated about it, the mount can make a UMD check too, to fake being a special mount.

Some mounts can do that. :-p

As for faking being a Summoner, an Eidolon must appear. If it is indeed Your Eidolon, then you get to design one whenever you use the Wand to summon it.

If the Wand is not able to test who holds it, then it should summon an Eidolon as designed by the creator of the Wand! - If that very same Eidolon is already present on our plane, the charge will fail. - If it is not, perhaps the Summoner is dead, then it will appear.

Point me to the place in the rules that support your arguments, if you persist, that nothing happens.

You are the one saying wand produces class features. The proof of burden is on you. UMD checks don't give you class abilities which is what is needed. It only lets you pretend to have it for the purpose of activating a magic item. Sometimes a cubic zirconia will do. This time you need a diamond(the real thing).

PS:I see Bruno beat me with the GMW analogy.

Shadow Lodge

This is sort of like claiming a rogue can activate a Pearl of Power and emulate a class ability "A spell I just cast" to cast any spell of the appropriate level.


Right, so the argument you present is that; yes the wand can summon your Eidolon, but when it gets to the right address and knocks on the door, there is no Eidolon there to open.

You assume the Wand takes it's outset in the guy holding it.

However, if I use a wand of Magic Missiles, I get the number of MM's dictated by the CL of the Wand, not my own CL.

I argue that Eidolon's are unique and each spell is keyed to one specific Eidolon. Namely, the Eidolon of the Wand creator.

If someone else uses the Wand to summon his(TheCreator's) Eidolon, which, for the sake of this argument, is presently not summoned, it should appear.

As you are not a Summoner you are missing the Life Link and other Summoner class features.

But for other intents and purposes, Summon Eidolon is "just" another summon monster spell, where the monster in question is "unique".


0gre wrote:
This is sort of like claiming a rogue can activate a Pearl of Power and emulate a class ability "A spell I just cast" to cast any spell of the appropriate level.

Yes, he can simulate being able to cast spells. But unless he just performed another trick to give the effect that he just cast a spell... Then you are correct that there would be no target.

If however he just managed to cast a spell, as if he had cast it himself, then the peal would work.

I am not out to eke the last bit of power out of this particular situation, I am trying to apply scientific method (of a sort, in my limited capabilities) to what is and is not possible within RAW.

At any table the rule of the GM is law. - And the only rule above that; is that players who do not have fun will stop playing.

Sovereign Court

Oh silly, silly thread...


If you have no Eidolon without using the wand, Then the wand can not summon Yours. The spell is clear you must already have an Eidolon to summon. If you do not have one then the spell simply does not work.

This spell uses a class ability, one you must have in order for it to work.


Xraal wrote:


If someone else uses the Wand to summon his(TheCreator's) Eidolon, which, for the sake of this argument, is presently not summoned, it should appear.

As you are not a Summoner you are missing the Life Link and other Summoner class features.

But for other intents and purposes, Summon Eidolon is "just" another summon monster spell, where the monster in question is "unique".

As you are not a summoner, you are also missing the Eidolon class feature.

Spells cast from a wand is not tied to the creator in any way. His character levels and caster level set limits for what he is able to create, but apart from that, the wand is just a wand, which might be used to cast a certain spell, at a fixed caster level with a fixed DC, but otherwise you are the one casting the spell.

By RAW, it is not your eidolon, so you can't do it.

If you wan't to do it anyway, there is nothing preventing you from making a custom magic item that summons a specific Eidolon (or other creature from another plane). It could be based on the Summon Eidolon, but might result in some interesting situations, as the spell itself does not convey any control over or connection with the Eidolon in question.

Sovereign Court

Xraal wrote:


If however he just managed to cast a spell, as if he had cast it himself, then the peal would work.

Just as IF he cast a spell he could use a pearl of power...IF he had some way to gain an Eidolon....

Xraal wrote:

I am not out to eke the last bit of power out of this particular situation, I am trying to apply scientific method (of a sort, in my limited capabilities) to what is and is not possible within RAW.

As many have basically said...RaW is...No Eidolon, No Summon Eidolon wand use.

Liberty's Edge

A level-appropriate eidolon appears...and begins to chew on the bard's face, because he has no bond with it.

Multiple attempts simply fail, this is not an experience factory.

As a DM, that's what I'd do!


Xraal wrote:


I argue that Eidolon's are unique and each spell is keyed to one specific Eidolon. Namely, the Eidolon of the Wand creator.

If someone else uses the Wand to summon his(TheCreator's) Eidolon, which, for the sake of this argument, is presently not summoned, it should appear.

I see no difference between this argument and one that claims that a wand of any spell with Target: Self would be bound to cast on the crafter of the wand and not the current user of the wand.


Xraal wrote:
If the Wand is not able to test who holds it, then it should summon an Eidolon as designed by the creator of the Wand!

I think your argument is valid.

However, in that case, the wand would have to be created by the summoner himself, and no sane summoner would do that, thereby jeopardizing his prime ability by having his eidolon snatched away by that lousy thief who just stole his wand.

Xraal wrote:
If that very same Eidolon is already present on our plane, the charge will fail. - If it is not, perhaps the Summoner is dead, then it will appear.

This, however, would not be the case. You can summon items/creatures that are on your own plane (instant summons, summon nature's ally), so why not the eidolon?

So, as a GM, I would allow it, but no NPC Summoner would be stupid enough to create a wand in the first place.


Xraal wrote:


I argue that Eidolon's are unique and each spell is keyed to one specific Eidolon. Namely, the Eidolon of the Wand creator.

Incorrect.

If a summoner uses a wand of summon eidolon that someone else made, the summoner's eidolon is summoned and not the wand's creator's eidolon.

It seems as if you want to have a contention over this where there isn't one, or that you want a ruling to be correct when its not.

I'm sorry that it's not just the case.

You can't take a wand of heal mount (for example) and UMD away that the target isn't your mount class feature rather than the halforc that's carrying you!

-James

Silver Crusade

Engage sarcasm mode

Cool idea. I'll have a wand of Summon Bardic Performance to go along with my Amulet of Smite Evil and my Ring of Sorcerous Bloodlines...

Disengage sarcasm mode

There are two things here, RAW and the spirit of the rules. RAW states that the spell has a stipulation that says you summon "your Eidolon". As you don't have an Eidolon unless you are a summoner the spell automatically fails.

Under the spirit of the rules this is just plain obvious surely? The Eidolon is the defining power of the Summoner class and you want to replicate this power using a 2nd level wand? Seriously?

You can twist the meaning and wording of rules as much as you like to try to get an advantage. But you should seriously ask why you want to do that. This is not a competition, it's a collaborative game. No matter what the rules state (and I think things are pretty clear in this instance) you shouldn't be trying to twist the rules to get a mechanical advantage that goes against all sense and logic.

As a wise man once said you are spending so much time trying to see if you can do something that you have not had enough time to examine whether you should.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

By the RAW wording of the spell itself.

You blow a wand charge.. maybe see some sparkly lights and absolutely nothing comes of it. An eidolon is created by a summoner's pact and link with an outsider. You don't have such a link unless you are a summoner yourself.


Yar!

Alrighty then, for the sake of complete thoroughness, I am going to take you on a journey. A journey though the Rules As Written. I will give complete quotes of the text, including links to the prd when possible (not to be confused with the srd. While the srd is a great resource, it is fan made. The prd is actually published by paizo), as well as page numbers from the books themselves (I will quote whole sections instead of relevant snippets because I was recently accused of "conveniently leaving out information" in my quotes despite attempting to do the exact opposite, which is, being as informative and all encompassing as possible). I will follow each quote of RAW with my own interpretation of how it applies to the current situation.

Let the details commence! First, the spell in question:

Summon Eidolon:

Everything here mentions your Eidolon with the sole exception being the Target line. In fact, “your eidolon” is written a total of 6 times. This leads me to believe that if you do not have an eidolon, you gain no benefit from casting this spell.

But let us now look at Use magic Device.

Use Magic Device:
[url=http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/skills/useMagicDevice.html#use-magic-device wrote:

Use Magic Device, CRB page 108-109] You are skilled at activating magic items, even if you are not otherwise trained in their use.

Check: You can use this skill to read a spell or to activate a magic item. Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment.

You make a Use Magic Device check each time you activate a device such as a wand. If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour.

You must consciously choose which requirement to emulate. That is, you must know what you are trying to emulate when you make a Use Magic Device check for that purpose. The DCs for various tasks involving Use Magic Device checks are summarized on the table below.

Activate Blindly: Some magic items are activated by special words, thoughts, or actions. You can activate such an item as if you were using the activation word, thought, or action, even when you're not and even if you don't know it. You do have to perform some equivalent activity in order to make the check. That is, you must speak, wave the item around, or otherwise attempt to get it to activate. You get a +2 bonus on your Use Magic Device check if you've activated the item in question at least once before. If you fail by 9 or less, you can't activate the device. If you fail by 10 or more, you suffer a mishap. A mishap means that magical energy gets released but doesn't do what you wanted it to do. The default mishaps are that the item affects the wrong target or that uncontrolled magical energy is released, dealing 2d6 points of damage to you. This mishap is in addition to the chance for a mishap that you normally risk when you cast a spell from a scroll that you could not otherwise cast yourself.

Decipher a Written Spell: This usage works just like deciphering a written spell with the Spellcraft skill, except that the DC is 5 points higher. Deciphering a written spell requires 1 minute of concentration.

Emulate an Ability Score: To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you're emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don't need to make this check.
Emulate an Alignment: Some magic items have positive or negative effects based on the user's alignment. Use Magic Device lets you use these items as if you were of an alignment of your choice. You can emulate only one alignment at a time.

Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

Emulate a Race: Some magic items work only for members of certain races, or work better for members of those races. You can use such an item as if you were a member of a race of your choice. You can emulate only one race at a time.

Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll's spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don't have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check.

This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items.

Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand's spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list.

Action: None. The Use Magic Device check is made as part of the action (if any) required to activate the magic item.

Try Again: Yes, but if you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail, then you can't try to activate that item again for 24 hours.

Special: You cannot take 10 with this skill. You can't aid another on Use Magic Device checks. Only the user of the item may attempt such a check.

If you have the Magical Aptitude feat, you gain a bonus on Use Magic Device checks (see Feats).

The important parts here are Use a Wand section, and the Emulate a Class Feature section, and some of the text in the initial few paragraphs. Use a Wand tells us "This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list.”. Emulate a Class Feature tells us “Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. ... This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature.” Meaning you still do not get an eidolon to summon, even if you are able to cast the spell Summon Eidolon, as you still need your own eidolon by actually having the class feature of the summoner class that gives you an eidolon in order to have an eidolon to summon via the spell Summon Eidolon. Again, you can activate an item that lets you cast the spell, but casting the spell still does nothing if you do not actually have an eidolon of your own to be summoned.

But you say that the summoner who made the wand gives his eidolon to the summoning power of the wand? Well then, lets look at the RAW for both wands and wand crafting.

Wands:
] A wand is a thin baton that contains a single spell of 4th level or lower. A wand has 50 charges when created—each charge allows the use of the wand's spell one time. A wand that runs out of charges is just a stick. The price of a wand is equal to the level of the spell × the creator's caster level × 750 gp. If the wand has a material component cost, it is added to the base price and cost to create once for each charge (50 × material component cost). Table: Wands gives sample prices for wands created at the lowest possible caster level for each spellcasting class. Note that some spells appear at different levels for different casters. The level of such spells depends on the caster crafting the wand.

Physical Description: A wand is 6 to 12 inches long, 1/4 inch thick, and weighs no more than 1 ounce. Most wands are wood, but some are bone, metal, or even crystal. A typical wand has Armor Class 7, 5 hit points, hardness 5, and a break DC of 16.

Activation: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast has a longer casting time than 1 action, however, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.) To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for non-humanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole.

Special Qualities: Roll d%. A 01–30 result indicates that something (a design, inscription, or the like) provides some clue to the wand's function, and 31–100 indicates no special qualities.

This does not tell us much in regards to this particular situation, but for the sake of being completely thorough with the RAW in all regards that may influence this situation, let us interject the wand quotes with a Spell Trigger reference.

Spell Trigger:
[url=http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems.html wrote:

Spell Trigger, CRB page 458] Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

No new info here. Perhaps the section on Crafting Wands will shed some more light?

Crafting Wands:

There is nothing here at all that suggests that the spell is cast as if the crafter is casting it. The crafter is simply creating an item that can cast a particular spell, usually at minimum caster level, up to 50 times. Not even in the Craft Wands feat is anything like this mentioned or even alluded to.

Feat: Craft Wands:
[url=http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html#craft-wand wrote:

Craft Wand, CRB page 120] You can create magic wands.

Prerequisite: Caster level 5th.

Benefit: You can create a wand of any 4th-level or lower spell that you know. Crafting a wand takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. To craft a wand, you must use up raw materials costing half of this base price. A newly created wand has 50 charges.

So, to conclude, you can be a non-summoner and use Use Magic Device to activate a wand that lets you cast the spell Summon Eidolon, but all that this will accomplish is the spending of 1 charge from the wand, and no eidolon being summoned, because even with an amazing Use Magic Device roll, it still does not actually give you the Eidolon class feature. It only simulates a fake-out version of class features in order to activate an item. You stop simulating it once the item, the wand, is activated. Activating the wand leads to the casting of the spell Summon Eidolon, which utilizes the class feature that you don’t actually have, therefore causing no eidolon to be summoned.

Sorry, but that’s what the RAW quoted above tells me.

There is no line anywhere that states “If you do not have the Eidolon class feature but are able to somehow cast the Summon Eidolon spell, you will gain no benefit.” Because –In My Opinion- the paizo staff felt that the above quoted text that they wrote and published covers this situation well enough without having to spell it out so. You will also note that there is no text anywhere saying “If you do not have the Eidolon class feature but are able to somehow cast the Summon Eidolon spell, you will gain an Eidolon of X level.” Because –In My Opinion- this is simply not the case, as I feel I’ve shown through the above quoted and linked RAW.

Something not being written does not make it true, and I highly doubt that this was an accidental omission.

Sorry, but if you want to be able to summon an Eidolon, you’re just going to have to take a level in the Summoner Class.

~P

EDIT: added spoiler tags to reduce the massive size of this post. Now you don't have to look at the RAW if you don't want to, though if this topic is important to you, I suggest that you do read it. ^_^


I'd like to point out that caster level has no effect on eidolon power. a lvl 20 summoner can use a lvl 3 wand to summon his etidolon. the spell establishes absolutely.no power guidelines because those are intrinsic to the summoner not the spell.


Pirate wrote:

Yar!

...lots of stuff

Thank you!

I read the whole thing and concluded, when I read the fine print in the UMD description, that you are correct.

Now, for my second act, I would like to ask what happens the 20% of the time where an Eidolon is Banished but does not return to its own home plane?

Using Banishment and then Know Location, you can decipher what plane the Eidolon is on.

Now, if it went "home" it is assumed that it is safe and out of reach. But 20% of the time, the banished target goes another place.

Continue the process until the Eidolon gets sent to a normal plane that can be reached by Plane Shift.

Go there, use Greater Teleport to get to it quickly, and Planar Adaptation to survive the plane if the climate is hostile.

Once there, pick up the Eidolon who will presently be unsummoned by anyone, yet not Home either. Plane Shift back home.

Then what happens? - Is the aspect Eidolon now a free independent creature of whatever power it was at the time of Banishment?

Assuming you use the Summon Eidolon class feature, it will probably be bound as usual and the process would be voided.

But if using the Summon Eidolon Spell, then it would move 10 ft in a little flash and for the duration of the spell count as a summoned creature with all that entails.

Then when defeated or the spell times out, it will pop back where it just were, 10 feet over there.

And once here, if killed, is it then really dead or simply Banished once more to be summoned or located if hitting the 20% "somewhere else" rule?

Also, if one never considers what Can be done and live only in What Is, then all progress would halt.

The Exchange

Summoning isn't Calling - check out the differences in the Magic section of the core book (under 'Conjuration'). An eidolon is Summoned, not Called - it's not what it's real self is at all, but an aspect or manifestation (which is why you can change what it looks like between levels and with spells). What the actual 'base' creature is, is anyone's guess (and is a question worthy of an adventure or two itself)!


Xraal wrote:
Now, for my second act, I would like to ask what happens the 20% of the time where an Eidolon is Banished but does not return to its own home plane?

Answer: Nothing. Eidolons only exist while within 1,000 feet of their Summoner. The rules explicitly state that Eidolons are only an aspect of another creature; they do not exist independently except when Summoned.

EDIT:

ProfPotts wrote:
Summoning isn't Calling - check out the differences in the Magic section of the core book (under 'Conjuration'). An eidolon is Summoned, not Called - it's not what it's real self is at all, but an aspect or manifestation (which is why you can change what it looks like between levels and with spells). What the actual 'base' creature is, is anyone's guess (and is a question worthy of an adventure or two itself)!

Actually, Eidolons are only summoned monsters when summon Eidolon is cast. They are neither summoned nor called when the ritual is used, although they're closer to called than summoned (as their hit points and status effects are remembered from the last time they were unsummoned).


Zurai wrote:


Answer: Nothing. Eidolons only exist while within 1,000 feet of their Summoner. The rules explicitly state that Eidolons are only an aspect of another creature; they do not exist independently except when Summoned.

Fair enough, but it was not the entire creature that was Banished, the Aspect was, and the Aspect was sent to a different plane.

Once there, I agree it would poof under the 1.000 feet rule and re-join the whole where ever it may be.

For the sake of this exercise; let us pretend the Eidolon was buffed with the spell that allows it to exist outside 1.000 ft. range. "Unfetter".

We are not interested in the "big Eidolon" we are just chasing after the Aspect.

The Exchange

Quote:
Actually, Eidolons are only summoned monsters when summon Eidolon is cast. They are neither summoned nor called when the ritual is used, although they're closer to called than summoned (as their hit points and status effects are remembered from the last time they were unsummoned).

The Summoner text refers to them as 'summoned' lots and explicitly states they're 'treated as summoned creatures' with some exceptions... so yes, they're Summoned.. with benefits, sure, but still Summoned. If they were Called then they'd die when killed... not just fade away until next time. The text even mentions the eidolon is an 'aspect' of a creature...


0gre wrote:


Similarly a wand with the ranger's spell that lets you turn someone into your favored enemy doesn't give you a mythical favored enemy bonus because you have no favored enemy class ability to take advantage of it.

I suppose it could give them a bonus against Brad, from bard camp, who beat out the bard in the lead for the production of Rent...


Unfetter lasts 10min per caster level (that is less than 3 hours with Caster Level 20).

An Eidolon disappears if its Summoner is dead.

An Eidolon disappears if its Summoner is unconscious.

So the only way I can image this working is if you keep the Summoner as a conscious captive while using his Wand in which case as soon as you did summon it it would probably try to save the Summoner. So if you really want to summon an Eidolon to fight feel free. Of course like all summoned creatures the xp is for killing the thing that summoned it so you don't get any benefit until you kill the Summoner which makes the Wand useless.


LazarX wrote:

By the RAW wording of the spell itself.

You blow a wand charge.. maybe see some sparkly lights and absolutely nothing comes of it. An eidolon is created by a summoner's pact and link with an outsider. You don't have such a link unless you are a summoner yourself.

If we are going down into the dirty interpretation of RAW, I believe that no charge is spend.

Summon Eidolon has 'One Eidolon' as target. Since the non-summoner does not have any eidolon to target, he cannot cast the spell. A targetted spell must have a target, otherwise it does not fail, it simply can't be cast.


HaraldKlak wrote:
LazarX wrote:

By the RAW wording of the spell itself.

You blow a wand charge.. maybe see some sparkly lights and absolutely nothing comes of it. An eidolon is created by a summoner's pact and link with an outsider. You don't have such a link unless you are a summoner yourself.

If we are going down into the dirty interpretation of RAW, I believe that no charge is spend.

Summon Eidolon has 'One Eidolon' as target. Since the non-summoner does not have any eidolon to target, he cannot cast the spell. A targetted spell must have a target, otherwise it does not fail, it simply can't be cast.

If you're going to use that logic, no summoner can cast the spell and have it work.

If the target is 'One Eidelon', then the spell never works. The eidelon is not there, and the summoner does not have line of effect to the eidelon in the first place.


mdt wrote:
HaraldKlak wrote:
LazarX wrote:

By the RAW wording of the spell itself.

You blow a wand charge.. maybe see some sparkly lights and absolutely nothing comes of it. An eidolon is created by a summoner's pact and link with an outsider. You don't have such a link unless you are a summoner yourself.

If we are going down into the dirty interpretation of RAW, I believe that no charge is spend.

Summon Eidolon has 'One Eidolon' as target. Since the non-summoner does not have any eidolon to target, he cannot cast the spell. A targetted spell must have a target, otherwise it does not fail, it simply can't be cast.

If you're going to use that logic, no summoner can cast the spell and have it work.

If the target is 'One Eidelon', then the spell never works. The eidelon is not there, and the summoner does not have line of effect to the eidelon in the first place.

It think it is safe to assume that Summon Eidolon which "open a rift between dimensions that summons your eidolon", does not need to have line of sight. I can't see how that is a similar logic, as the spell itself quite clearly works in a certain way in this regard.

But to counter my own earlier proposition, the charge is spend, as the spell is in fact cast due to the fact, that you don't choose your target until you finish casting the spell.

For consistency in rules (on the detail level), the spell should have an "effect"-line and not a "target"-one.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
HaraldKlak wrote:


It think it is safe to assume that Summon Eidolon which "open a rift between dimensions that summons your eidolon", does not need to have line of sight. I can't see how that is a similar logic, as the spell itself quite clearly works in a certain way in this regard.

But to counter my own earlier proposition, the charge is spend, as the spell is in fact cast due to the fact, that you don't choose your target until you finish casting the spell.

For consistency in rules (on the detail level), the spell should have an "effect"-line and not a "target"-one.

I didn't say he had no line of sight, I said he had no line of effect. The spell is a close range spell with a target. The magic rules clearly state 'you must have line of effect to the target'.

Summon spells normally have no target for just this reason, that you can't target something that isn't there.

This is a goof up on the devs part. By putting a target on the spell, they have actually made the spell unable to be used. Since there is nothing in the spell that specifies it overrides the general magic rules.

Note this is a 'RAW' vs 'RAI' issue. RAW the spell never works. RAI the spell summons the eidelon. This could be fixed by removing the target field from the spell, and adding a special entry to it that states 'You can only summon your own Eidelon with this spell'.


Woohoo! So my poking around uncovered a real issue!

Tiny as it may be. :-)


Id make it summon the eidelon belonging to the summoner that made the wand...just for fun


This reminds me of one strip in the 8-Bit theatre.

Black Mage had previously class-changed into a blue mage, which allowed him to copy any spell he survived. Talk about being screwed.

So in this strip he angers the ultimate creator of everything and stuff on top of that. The guy casts a spell, causing unspeakable pain to Black Mage.

So BM smiles, and casts the spell right back. And has to endure unspeakable pain again.

Of course, the spell he copied was Cause Black Mage Unspeakable Pain


Pathfinder Adventure, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Pirate wrote:

Yar!

Alrighty then, for the sake of complete thoroughness, I am going to take you on a journey. A journey though the Rules As Written. I will give complete quotes of the text, including links to the prd when possible (not to be confused with the srd. While the srd is a great resource, it is fan made. The prd is actually published by paizo), as well as page numbers from the books themselves (I will quote whole sections instead of relevant snippets because I was recently accused of "conveniently leaving out information" in my quotes despite attempting to do the exact opposite, which is, being as informative and all encompassing as possible). I will follow each quote of RAW with my own interpretation of how it applies to the current situation.

Let the details commence! First, the spell in question:

** spoiler omitted **

Everything here mentions your Eidolon with the sole exception being the Target line. In fact, “your eidolon” is written a total of 6 times. This leads me to believe that if you do not have an eidolon, you gain...

Major points for effort and humour...

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Summon Eidolon Spell, in Wand, cast by UMD by Bard... What happens? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.