After long thought and much experimentation, I've come to see Disable Device as waste of potential versatility in both D&D and, now, Pathfinder. The idea that all Rogues have both the built-in understanding and ability to potentially disable any device or trap is nonsense. It's like saying that a thief that's very good at disabling electronic security systems can also, magically, use this know-how to know which wire to cut to diffuse a bomb.
Instead, I've found, in both realism and playability, the better alternative is to use the appropriate craft or profession skill. This way everyone on the team can potentially contribute to the party's safety.
Foe example, Stumpy McDoorite, dwarf paladin extraordinaire, is the cookie cutter holy warrior in every way but one: His uncle, and mentor, happens to be one of gnome-kind's top experts in clockwork engineering. As such, Stumpy spends one skill point every level in "Profession: Clockwork Engineer" to reflect his continued devotion to his only passion other than smiting evil. Now, when his adventuring party is trapped in an elaborate clockwork deathtrap, it is he, not the party's urban-based rogue, who steps forward and saves the day by disabling the trap.
By abolishing Disable Device, skill point expenditures in Crafts and Professions that reflect a character's background can have a major impact on a campaign, and not be relegated to being just a way to earn gold in between missions or to qualify for a prestige class or feat.
In relation to the game balancing, I've been testing and playing around with allowing Rogues to add their Dex bonus, either full or in part, to their disable checks. My idea is that rogues, thematically, are more experienced in working under pressure with regards to dexterous maneuvers. Whether their experience stems for picking locks, picking pockets, or picking noses (jk), rogues are supposed to be consummate con-men and/or thieves who are past masters at dealing with tricky, stressful and intense situations involving using their digits.
Eg: While the ranger may be a expert in the mechanics of traps, it's unlikely that she's ever had to deal with disarming a trap under any sort of time constraint. For a burglar, on the other hand, it's routine business to picks locks and cracks safes speedily and surely. So when he's presented with a trap that has to be safely disabled NOW (so no taking 10 or 20 for being able to take all the time in the world), his past experiences keep his nimble fingers as steady as can be. Hence, he adds some part of his Dex bonus to his skill check.
Please note: Constructive criticism is most appreciated, flames less so.
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DD is nice because it's one-stop shopping. With Craft, you'd have to go both Craft (Locks) and Craft (Traps). And for Profession, I didn't see Thief listed as an option, but there was trapper, and I guess they could add locksmith. Maybe a compromise is that they could say in the Craft description that Craft (Locks) can be used as a substitute to DD to Open Locks and that Craft (Traps) can be used as a substitute to DD to disable devices. You could do the same with locksmith and trapper.
Basically you want to change it back to the way 3.5 had it. Disable Device and Open Locks are separate skills.
Except maybe change the names to Craft (Traps) for trap disabling, Craft (Locks), Knowledge (Engineering) might possibly work but at 5 higher DC for either case.
The only problem this creates is that Rogues (and other utility characters) then need more skill points in order to be as effective at their job. Bump them up to 11 or 12 skill points per level to get the skills they need to make up for the loss of Disable Device.
After long thought and much experimentation, I've come to see Disable Device as waste of potential versatility in both D&D and, now, Pathfinder. The idea that all Rogues have both the built-in understanding and ability to potentially disable any device or trap is nonsense. It's like saying that a thief that's very good at disabling electronic security systems can also, magically, use this know-how to know which wire to cut to diffuse a bomb.
Instead, I've found, in both realism and playability, the better alternative is to use the appropriate craft or profession skill. This way everyone on the team can potentially contribute to the party's safety.
Foe example, Stumpy McDoorite, dwarf paladin extraordinaire, is the cookie cutter holy warrior in every way but one: His uncle, and mentor, happens to be one of gnome-kind's top experts in clockwork engineering. As such, Stumpy spends one skill point every level in "Profession: Clockwork Engineer" to reflect his continued devotion to his only passion other than smiting evil. Now, when his adventuring party is trapped in an elaborate clockwork deathtrap, it is he, not the party's urban-based rogue, who steps forward and saves the day by disabling the trap.
By abolishing Disable Device, skill point expenditures in Crafts and Professions that reflect a character's background can have a major impact on a campaign, and not be relegated to being just a way to earn gold in between missions or to qualify for a prestige class or feat.
In relation to the game balancing, I've been testing and playing around with allowing Rogues to add their Dex bonus, either full or in part, to their disable checks. My idea is that rogues, thematically, are more experienced in working under pressure with regards to dexterous maneuvers. Whether their experience stems for picking locks, picking pockets, or picking noses (jk), rogues are supposed to be consummate con-men and/or thieves who are past masters at dealing with tricky, stressful and intense situations involving using...
I see no issue with DD, you don't need to know how to make something to know how to break it. I can't build a computer, but I could disable one pretty effectively.
Since when are bombs being disabled, Some mechanical traps wouldn't be that bad.
With DD all you are doing is learning how to stop it, you don't care how to make it just what you need to do to break the darn thing.
I can see a thing where you would allow a player to sub in a craft or profession where appropriate.
I can pick a lock, but I don't know the first thing about making one.
You don't run across bomb traps? Weird, I run them all the time because they're the mechanical version of glyph fireball traps. If the trap is activated, two chemicals mix, and boom.
Anyways, what I was trying to get at was that DD is a "trained only" skill, so only certain classes, like rogues, can disable traps. Even if you're character is a trap using hunter by profession, there is no formal game mechanic that allows your character to attempt to disarm the trap you come across in the dungeon, even though logically you should be able to. Whereas the gutter rat turned thief will some how magically know how to disable it when this is the first time he's ever seen a trap like this one.
To use the computer analogy: could you disable that same computer so that the temperature inside the case doesn't change by more than a degree Celsius? Because if you can't, then the prisoner your trying to rescue is going to be electrocuted. While you probably can't, a hardware engineer should have a better handle on doing it successfully.
And yes, I do split picking locks back into it's own skill. Since rogues still get 8 sp a level just like in 3rd ed, it just means that they have to specialize in what devices they can disable. What your missing, DrDew, is that now the rest of the party isn't dead weight when it comes to utility. Fighters and Pallies can disable traps too if they invest in the right professions.
Trained only means that you must have at least one skill point in it to use it, anybody can invest rank into any skill.
Trained only means that you must have at least one skill point in it to use it, anybody can invest rank into any skill.
Oops, didn't realize that. My group still plays mostly 3.5 because were lazy and poor.
Still, I think a rules change is in order for being able to swap in craft or profession ranks for cases where that knowledge would apply to disabling something. And maybe give a bonus from knowledge (engineering) for mechanical trap disables and spellcraft for magical trap disables.
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Yeah, rogues still hold territory over being able to find and disable magical traps but beyond that any character can take ranks of Disable Device and only be a few points behind a rogue.
Of course, so could any character back in 3.5, the math was just a bit more annoying with the whole half ranks thing.
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But if you have the Craft (Locks), Craft (Traps), or Knowldege (Engineering), I could see those working in the appropriate situation instead of DD.
If I can build a lock, I'm sure I could disable it. The reverse is obviously not necessarily true.
If I have Profession (Locksmith), I should be able to use it to pick locks. I'd argue with maybe even a +2 bonus on locks, but I wouldn't be able to use it to disable traps.
And if I have Disable Device on top of that, maybe I should get a bonus or something... But that sounds like skill synergies, and we dont have those anymore.
Oops, didn't realize that. My group still plays mostly 3.5 because were lazy and poor.
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Andrew Gale
SAGAWORK STUDIOS
There might be characters who are good at disarming traps with no idea about locks, yeah. But not that many.
A good system is simple. You could also say "not every acrobat is good at tumbling" or "not everyone who is a good lier also is good at feinting" but come one, seriously?
If it´s that much of a problem to you, introduce negative traits (/flaws) that read like:
"Your character knows how to disarm traps but has no clue about locks - in regard to locks, no ranks are invested into disable device."
(I wouldn´t give a trait for every negative trait but maybe a character who takes such a trait can use the ranks of disable device to simulate a profession skill by choice (comparable to versatile performance) so the ranks in disable device are still worth something)
After long thought and much experimentation, I've come to see Disable Device as waste of potential versatility in both D&D and, now, Pathfinder.
I'd argue the opposite. Because you can be a master of breaking stuff for the low, low price of one skill point per level, it's easier to play a character that can take care of that stuff even if you don't play a class with lots of skill points.
Sure, an optional rule that you can use the Appropriate craft skill instead of Disable Device would totally make sense, but don't take away the option of specialising in breaking things instead of specialising in one kind of device.
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There might be characters who are good at disarming traps with no idea about locks, yeah. But not that many.
A good system is simple. You could also say "not every acrobat is good at tumbling" or "not everyone who is a good lier also is good at feinting" but come one, seriously?
If it´s that much of a problem to you, introduce negative traits (/flaws) that read like:
"Your character knows how to disarm traps but has no clue about locks - in regard to locks, no ranks are invested into disable device."
(I wouldn´t give a trait for every negative trait but maybe a character who takes such a trait can use the ranks of disable device to simulate a profession skill by choice (comparable to versatile performance) so the ranks in disable device are still worth something)
Oh I don't necessarily agree with the OP about removing DD. But I'm saying: Is there any reason why you shouldn't be able to use the other related skills in the right situation if you have them?
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Oh I don't necessarily agree with the OP about removing DD. But I'm saying: Is there any reason why you shouldn't be able to use the other related skills in the right situation if you have them?
Like spellcraft to disable magical traps, K(engineering) for mechanical traps, etc?
I'd be OK with that myself.
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Oh I don't necessarily agree with the OP about removing DD. But I'm saying: Is there any reason why you shouldn't be able to use the other related skills in the right situation if you have them?Like spellcraft to disable magical traps, K(engineering) for mechanical traps, etc?
I'd be OK with that myself.
Exactly. Disable device would be the catch-all, but the other skills that overlap could apply in the right situation.
I wouldn't mind seeing the ability to use know(engineering) to build mechanical things or things with difficult structural integrity (like bridges). Or Survival to build wilderness traps (like in the movie Pathfinder) - Covered up spiked pit traps with sharpened wooden stake spikes, Rigs where a branch swings around and impales you, etc.
I'd like to see the overlaps apply better. Preferably officially, but wouldn't mind seeing it as a houserule either.
I do find disable device a bit one dimensional. I would certainly allow any PC with an appropriate craft or profession skill to use it in place of DD. (e.g. Stonecraft to disable a pit trap in a dungeon made of worked stone.)
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I think I would design something like this:
- Any given trap has 1-3 skill DCs that can be used to disable it.
- Disable device is used for picking locks, and for disabling mechanisms similar to locks.
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Guys, it's the product of the evolution of skills throughout the history of D&D and now Pathfinder. D&D, AD&D 1e, and AD&D 2e all had the Find & Remove Traps ability, either at a fixed percentage (D&D and 1e) or to a variable degree (2e). When converted to 3e, Find Traps became Search, and Remove Traps became Disable Device. Going to Pathfinder combined Search into Perception and added the Open Locks functionality into Disable Device.
Traps have always been handled in an over-simplified manner, throughout the history of the game(s). Just like everything else.
Guys, it's the product of the evolution of skills throughout the history of D&D and now Pathfinder. D&D, AD&D 1e, and AD&D 2e all had the Find & Remove Traps ability, either at a fixed percentage (D&D and 1e) or to a variable degree (2e). When converted to 3e, Find Traps became Search, and Remove Traps became Disable Device. Going to Pathfinder combined Search into Perception and added the Open Locks functionality into Disable Device.
Traps have always been handled in an over-simplified manner, throughout the history of the game(s). Just like everything else.
Yes, you are absolutely right, of course, with a few clever exceptions here and there.
Simple isn't the same as bad.
It would be more 'realistic' to have separate hit points for my elbow, wrist, and hand; but as soon as someone proposes that, I'm finding new people to game with.
Maybe overly general 'mechanical aptitude' is ok?
It works well in other games. Call of Cthulhu has electrical repair, and mechanical repair, which can also be used to sabotage things.
But if you have the Craft (Locks), Craft (Traps), or Knowldege (Engineering), I could see those working in the appropriate situation instead of DD.
If I can build a lock, I'm sure I could disable it. The reverse is obviously not necessarily true.
If I have Profession (Locksmith), I should be able to use it to pick locks. I'd argue with maybe even a +2 bonus on locks, but I wouldn't be able to use it to disable traps.
And if I have Disable Device on top of that, maybe I should get a bonus or something... But that sounds like skill synergies, and we dont have those anymore.
I use a variation of synergies in my games. Players with the appropriate skill can make a free "aid another" check for themselves. So a character with Craft (traps) can roll to get a bonus for a Disable Device check (no take 10). Since I use expanded aid another checks (+1 for every additional 10 points above the base 10), there is a reason to keep pointing points into skills.
I dont get it personally, whats the problem with disable device?
If you can defuse a bomb, would you know what was the wiring problem in your refridgerator?
Maybe not.
I have found over a life time, as I added new skills there was more synergy where skill A and skill B and Skill C let me do something like figure out how to fix the dang vacuum cleaner I never even read the owners manual on.
I kind though that was the point of bard versatility.
So you could definitely have a character who had knowledge engineering, say, disable the draw bridge trap, or the spike wall trap or something like that, where as he wouldnt know diddly about the mystic rune trap, or something like that.
Ive seen skill substitutions before.
I don't however see what's wrong with a disable device skill, as there are plenty of real world examples of people who are experts in all sorts of 'related' things.
This particular skill lets you pick locks as well as sabotage a siege engine.
The profession "trapper" by the way is referring to someone who traps animals and sells their furs, not someone who builds or springs traps in general.