Hi All.
I'm pretty new to Pathfinder (and d20s in general, for that matter), so I wanted to see if I could get a bit of help on a build I've been contemplating.
I really like the idea of playing an Arcane Archer, so I'd like to build towards that, and was leaning towards doing so via Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 3 (then onto Arcane Archer for 4+ levels, then who knows). My main question has to do with which school I should choose for my wizard levels: I'm leaning towards either transmutation (primarily for the ability score bonus, although I worry I'm placing too much emphasis on that) or conjuration (mainly because I like the idea of my own personal line of defense provided by summon monster). Of course, I can use summon monster in either case, but I wasn't sure how much of a benefit the extended summon durations would be for a conjurer, because I don't have a lot of in-game experience.
Any help would be much appreciated.
Conjuration (Teleportation subschool) would be my choice. You get one of the best schools overall (Conj) but replace the lame acid arrow with teleporting across the battlefield as a swift action. Very good for a caster/archer build.
I have mixed feelings about your build idea, though. It seems you're trying to carefully balance your spellcasting with your archery, which won't really work that good. You're going to lose enough caster levels to make you irrelevant as a primary caster, and your class choices will lose you enough feats and BAB that your skill with a bow won't be impressive either.
The Arcane Archer works best when specializing in either the Arcane part or the Archer part. In the first case, it's best to go with a pure Wizard until you qualify for AA and then take a two level dip so you can imbue arrows with spells. In the latter case, it's best to start with a Fighter (either core or Archer archetype), gain 6 levels in it, then go Wiz1 and fill the rest with AA. In this scenario, your spellcasting will lag severely behind, but you'll be extremely scary with a bow and able to cast a few buffs/summons/BC.
+1 for amorangias
teleportation (from the APG) is a sweet sweet school, summons will block people to attack from near and teleportation helps getting on the cliff to create death from above.
You seem to have a 3.5 take on prestige-classes. I would go for pure wizard and a bit of arcane archer later.
It depends on what you want.
If you truly want to dabble into everything, I would suggest the bard to go arcane archer. Treantmonks guide will help you greatly, but he hasn't included the APG yet.
APG = Advanced Players Guide
Much appreciated. I'm tending towards agreeing with the choice of conjuration, and I like the idea of using the teleportation subschool - I think it would maximize the usefulness of the wizard levels that I take.
One quick question that I did have: would my levels in Arcane Archer contribute to my wizarding level when determining things like the distance I can teleport using the class skill? (Again, pretty new to this.)
As to the larger issue, yes, the relationship between the arcane and archery aspects of the character is something that I've gone back and forth about. I certainly see your point that trying to strike a middleground between the two would wind up diminishing my usefulness, especially in the long run. When I think about it, I tend to lean towards emphasizing the archery portion (which fits my conception of the character, anyway), with the magic serving as a supplement, and possibly contributing out of combat as well.
Edit: This was directed to Amorangias; Richard, you jumped in while I was in the process of posting. In reference to your comments, it's interesting to me how this class can go either way! Part of its appeal (and, I suppose, it's challenge, too).
as your caster lvl augments, it helps your spells.
However it doesn't augment your wizard lvl, thus abilities like teleport (from subschool) or familiar don't go up.
as you like the archery portion, I would go with a lot of fighter and only a very little wizard. That you way you get enough spells to buff yourself or for utility, but you'll normally not cast that much in combat.
One quick question that I did have: would my levels in Arcane Archer contribute to my wizarding level when determining things like the distance I can teleport using the class skill? (Again, pretty new to this.)
No, the only thing you get out of AA that stacks with your Wizard level is the caster level and spellcasting overall. All other class features are dropped in favor of the AA goodness. Also, according to the official ruling, you don't get those two spells you'd add to your spellbook either. In light of this, you may actually want to get a few more levels of Wizard before going AA. But then again, the number of times you can use your school power isn't level-dependent, and even a 5-foot swift teleport can get you out of danger zone in a pinch.
As to the larger issue, yes, the relationship between the arcane and archery aspects of the character is something that I've gone back and forth about. I certainly see your point that trying to strike a middleground between the two would wind up diminishing my usefulness, especially in the long run. When I think about it, I tend to lean towards emphasizing the archery portion (which fits my conception of the character, anyway), with the magic serving as a supplement, and possibly contributing out of combat as well.
Then, as I said earlier, your best bet would be Ftr6/Wiz1 before going for AA. Don't bother with the spellcasting too much, rather treat the Wizard level as a tax to get all the AA utility. Enjoy the BAB comparable with a pure fighter combined with Holy Flaming Flaming Burst arrows for free on each attack.
Also, if the campaign takes you to higher levels, you may want to skip AA10. It's a level where you don't get new spells, and the killing arrow is pretty mediocre (doubly so for a Wizard build, as it's DC is Cha-based). Instead, go back to either Fighter or Wizard, depending on your taste (though at this point, the Fighter is likely the stronger option).
Mind you, this is all from optimizer's perspective. Depending on the individual tastes of your group, you may as well have more fun with your initial build idea. Unless you're playing with a group very focused on optimization, playing what you want is usually more fun than playing what's optimal.
if you go for 1 lvl wizard only, perhaps consider other arcane spellcasters. A witch could get feather fall at will for just 1 lvl, or Healing hex to make townpeople happy.
Sorcerer doesn't need a spellbook. some bloodlines might even give nice benefits.
Some might even try to weasel their way in with a 4 lvls of rogue.
Any help would be much appreciated.Make Dex the primary skill (higher than INT).
Yes.
Take Bonded Weapon - Composite Longbow
NO! It's a horrible, horrible idea, as you'll always be one successful Sunder attempt away from losing both your spellcasting and your primary weapon.
If you must have the bonded object, make it a ring. But I'd strongly consider the familiar instead.
Some might even try to weasel their way in with a 4 lvls of rogue.
Why would anyone do that? Rogue sucks fair and square.
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I'm playing this exact build right now.
Fighter 1/Wizard 5/EK 3/AA 3/EK +7/AA +1
Traits: Magical Knack and Warrior of Old
In my campaign I'm a Human raised by elves (I actually have the Adopted trait and then Warrior of Old), so I'm being allowed into Arcane Archer.
Bonded item: Ring (I took craft magic arms and armor at 6th with my bonus wizard feat, so I can make my bows at half price anyhow...this is good as otherwise every time you up your strength you would need a new composite longbow of the right strength mod. And always remember, you get Greater Magic Weapon, so all you need is a +1 Bow with every elemental enchantment on it...and you even get one of those free with AA 3...so perhaps +1 Corrosive Shocking Frost Ghost Touch and then just the AA elemental ability for Flaming and GMW to make it +5 eventually. Saves some serious cash for other items.)
Specialization school: Transmutation. That bonus to an ability score really helps at lower levels, which is really the only place you need it with this build. Also, the spells are better for you, and you won't be sucking it up by memming a conjuration spell at some levels that isn't totally ideal for you.
Restricted Schools: Evocation and Necromancy. Not much for you in either place. Your DCs will be low, and you'll do more damage full attacking than imbuing crap onto your arrows. Enchantment has some decent buffs (Heroism is awesome and helps make up for the early lost BAB, as well as really helping with Saves).
Also, the teleportation option from the focused conjuration school functions like Dimension Door, which means if you use it, you're done for the turn. This does not make it that handy for teleporting in order to then take a full attack. It really limits its usefulness. Especially limited if you only ever take 5 levels of Wizard.
Ability Scores: Dex first, Str second, and a 14 in Int to start is really all you need.
End Result: You're going to have 17 BAB and 17 wizard casting levels (CL 20 with Magical Knack and an orange ioun stone at higher levels), which means Full iterative attacks and 9th level spells. You're not going to be a primary caster, as you'll be 3 levels behind the curve, but you'll be a damn fine damage dealer and secondary caster.
Trick: The best use of Imbue Arrow is with Anti-Magic Field at later levels. Just hoses certain enemies. Other than that, it's really not even that useful, but you need those AA levels to get to 17/17 anyway.
Hope some of that helps.
I'm playing this exact build right now.
Fighter 1/Wizard 5/EK 3/AA 3/EK +7/AA +1
Thanks for chiming in, Sylvanite. I think amorangias made a good point about not wanting to spread myself too thin, which was helpful in getting me to better assess what I want to get out of the build, but it's nice to know that build is viable. It seems like you and I were thinking along the same lines, even down to the details (I had also planned on choosing evocation and necromancy as my opposition schools).
Out of curiosity, what's the makeup of the rest of your party? Do you think that helped to keep you relevant at all?
If you're worried about your arcane item being sundered, you'll never get one. Even rings can be targeted, ask Sauron.
Few people would reasonably try sundering rings. Rings are rarely the mainstay of anyone's magical arsenal, and they make nice, easily portable loot. The enemy would pretty much have to know the ring is your bonded item to target it.
Sundering/Disarming a weapon is pretty much a no-brainer, though.
I personally dislike familiars, they are a fast target to remove in countless ways. Your avatar found that out in strip #154. (OOTS is cool)
They are also completely expendable, unlike your bonded item. Also, a familiar for an Arcane Archer who leans heavily on the Archer side is going to be rather survivable. At the very least, the familiar can do many things you can't or can't be bothered with, like scouting. Or you can get the Improved Familiar feat for something with opposable thumbs, to add wand/scroll support.
(As a side thought, I'm actually pondering the Earth Elemental as a possible familiar for a very combat focused AA build, since it's actually capable of doing some damage, and could work pretty nice with a nearly full BAB progression and half the hit points of a character who'll be rolling d10s most of his levels.)The theme is an archer, one who should already be doing their best to stay out of melee range anyway, the AC will stink because of Arcane Spell Failure restrictions.
Yeah, sure. That pushes your failure conditions from "one successful Sunder/Disarm attempt" to "one bad positioning decision followed by one successful Sunder/Disarm attempt".
Also, you will need to hold the bow whenever you want to cast, unless you're willing to eat a hefty failure chance. There goes casting this Charm Person on the dwarf in the tavern to defuse the upcoming bar fight, or casting it on the king's advisor in the middle of the grand ball. You wouldn't have the same problem if you had a familiar, or just the ring, because having a ring on your finger (or pierced through your nipple to make sundering even less likely - it's not like they have to be finger rings, after all) or a weird creature at your side isn't generally considered a declaration of hostile intents, while having a bow in your hand - quite so.
I'm playing this exact build right now.
Fighter 1/Wizard 5/EK 3/AA 3/EK +7/AA +1
Thanks for chiming in, Sylvanite. I think amorangias made a good point about not wanting to spread myself too thin, which was helpful in getting me to better assess what I want to get out of the build, but it's nice to know that build is viable. It seems like you and I were thinking along the same lines, even down to the details (I had also planned on choosing evocation and necromancy as my opposition schools).
Out of curiosity, what's the makeup of the rest of your party? Do you think that helped to keep you relevant at all?
The rest of the party is casting based Druid, Rogue/Bard going for Arcane Trickster, Oracle/Barbarian going for Rage Prophet, and a Fighter with a big sword (who also has some other tricks up his sleeve).
We don't have a primary arcane caster per se, and I function as one when needed. However, we have a lot of healing, really good buffing, and do a TON of damage really fast. The Druid also summons real well and focuses on battlefield control.
I have had no problems being relevant, and I don't think I would have had those regardless of the party make-up. The build I'm using and you're considering is a fantastic striker, can eliminate fliers and other ranged attackers where most other strikers have problems, and also has pretty darn good casting, even if it's a few levels behind a straight wizard.
Are you going to be OMG IMA GOD!!!11!!one!1 as a caster? No. However, you'll be right on par if not leading your party in damage ability and utility. Personally, I feel that if you want an archer, this is the best build, rather than going full fighter or even ranger, plus you're a really good (but not godlike) caster.
Edit: Weighing in on the Bonded Object issue...A bow is a bad idea because they get sundered in combat if enemies are smart and dangerous. A ring is much better, as enemies won't know what your Bonded Object is and won't specifically be going for it. They'll still go for your bow every now and then regardless of the Bonded Object issue.