I'm preparing a second RotR game for an entirely new group. Now, having seen players scared off by the sheer amount of rules before, I'll be using pregens.
I am, however, at a loss in figuring out what the simplest classes are, or rather, those most tailored to new players. I'll be building (or editing) a few to fit whatever'll be effective in the long run.
As a side note, one of my players is keen to be a Varisian dancer-type. I'm up in the air about class. Are bladed scarves effective for rogues/bards? Is reach too confusing for a new player? Also, any general advice for dealing with newbies is much appreciated.
I have never made had a table of complete noobs, but if I did I would sit down with them individually, and help them make the class. I would also go very easy on them.
If they provoke attacks of opportunity I would them that it provokes and why as an example. <--That is what I do now, but I don't take the attack of opportunities the first few times. Later I introduce grappling and other things into the game. I also tell them how to avoid me using certain strategies against them.
I'll be starting a game soon with 3 guys who have never played a table-top rpg. I am basically planning on doing what wraithstrike said.
Ask them what they would like to be able to do.
Walk them through creating a first level character.
Possibly run through a mock combat with them to get them used to the mechanics.
For the first few levels, remind them of the rules whenever they would have an impact on their character.
Don't use complicated mechanics like grappling until they have the basics down (unless they insist on grappling with someone).
They're all smart guys so they should be able to handle any class. In earlier editions of D&D I would have said to play a fighter because they were really simple but that's not really the case anymore since 3e. Fighters are just as complex as any other class with all the feat interactions and armor/weapon mastery.
Although casters are probably the most complex due to having to read through spells to figure out what you want known/prepared.
I doubt reach is too confusing a concept. I never had any trouble understanding it when it was introduced.
i would have to disagree with sorcerer and rogue. too many people mess up sorcerer and that effects their effectiveness. as for rogue, if experienced people are saying its horrible, then that means they arent doing it right, therefore, new players 9 times outta 10 wont either.
only got one other opinion. for God's sake, keep them away from the APG. its called the APG for a reason.
Thanks for the advice, everybody. I've been considering Druid and maybe monk as a little overcomplicated for now, and I'll be building characters to make things easy for everybody.
I'm wondering should I try and explain the rules/prod them for character ideas in advance or save it all for game day? I don't want to scare anybody off. :P
The fact you are building the characters for them obviously addresses some of the issues people brought up.
I think Fighter / Rogue / Cleric / Sorceror is a great combo. Possibly you could go Oracle instead of Cleric.
I would consider letting the Fighter use the (3.5) Campaign Setting Variant, which gets 4 skills/level instead of 2, in exchange giving up the 1st level bonus Feat... You could adjust the Bonus Class Skills given by the Variant to be more appropriate to the Varisian dancer theme. If they´re Human, they can live without the 1st Bonus Feat, and it really allows them to achieve a more well-rounded character, which it sounds like they want with the Varisian dancer concept. Getting into RPGing for the first time, it is no fun when you learn that your character can´t really even consider trying a large number of actions, because you don´t have the skill ranks in them.
The Rogue is nice because they´re simple enough, but let you introduce things like Tumbling (if you use AoO´s right away, which I think is do-able, just don´t force the players to WORRY about it right away... you let them know how it happens, and point it out ahead of time so they can avoid them) and ´situational´ modifiers like Flanking. The large skill points also gives an opportunity to USE the skills alot (building on the above).
Cleric or Oracle are nice... Either way you can pick Domains/Mysteries and Revelations which aren´t too wonky but provide a solid boost so the player feels like they are effective.
Sorceror is the most straight-forward other caster.... I think Half-Casters like Bards should be avoided because they end up juggling Casting with other Class abilities that work totally differently than Spells. Pick a Bloodline (with your players, ideally) that has solid benefits from low level and doesn´t introduce too much out of the vanilla rule-set. Arcane Sorcerors for the Familiar could be too much to track... But you know your players, and if they can handle it, that can be very effective. The Elemental Bloodlines are useful with their low-level Ranged Attack... Some of the APG bloodlines could be good too.
I would say as they level up, at least the first few levels, make sure to give lots of attention on the leveling up process, letting them DO all the changes/updates, so they learn the process, but laying out good options consisely for them... e.g. ´these feats build on the ones you have, and could eventually let you do THIS, while THESE feats might let you better deal with situations like XYZ (esp. if it occured in-game), OR you could take THESE for something completely different´. That sort of thing. Make sure that YOU´RE prepared when you do this, it´s easy for seasoned gamers to jump around between all the different level-up aspects, but make sure to present it in a very clear manner to them.
I would definitely try and explain or SHOW the rules in some manner ahead of time. THis can be as simple as having a ´pre-adventure´ encounter (how they got to Sandpoint, or what they did earlier), so they can see how round-by-round combat works, and even do some non-combat scenarios so they see how non-combat skills are used (integrate perception, etc into the combat encounter, i.e. to determine surprise rounds). Tie-ing it in to their character´s background gets them more engaged and connecting all the pieces with what they have in their head.
The fact you are building the characters for them obviously addresses some of the issues people brought up.
I think Fighter / Rogue / Cleric / Sorceror is a great combo. Possibly you could go Oracle instead of Cleric.I would consider letting the Fighter use the (3.5) Campaign Setting Variant, which gets 4 skills/level instead of 2, in exchange giving up the 1st level bonus Feat... You could adjust the Bonus Class Skills given by the Variant to be more appropriate to the Varisian dancer theme. If they´re Human, they can live without the 1st Bonus Feat, and it really allows them to achieve a more well-rounded character, which it sounds like they want with the Varisian dancer concept. Getting into RPGing for the first time, it is no fun when you learn that your character can´t really even consider trying a large number of actions, because you don´t have the skill ranks in them.
The Rogue is nice because they´re simple enough, but let you introduce things like Tumbling (if you use AoO´s right away, which I think is do-able, just don´t force the players to WORRY about it right away... you let them know how it happens, and point it out ahead of time so they can avoid them) and ´situational´ modifiers like Flanking. The large skill points also gives an opportunity to USE the skills alot (building on the above).
Cleric or Oracle are nice... Either way you can pick Domains/Mysteries and Revelations which aren´t too wonky but provide a solid boost so the player feels like they are effective.
Sorceror is the most straight-forward other caster.... I think Half-Casters like Bards should be avoided because they end up juggling Casting with other Class abilities that work totally differently than Spells. Pick a Bloodline (with your players, ideally) that has solid benefits from low level and doesn´t introduce too much out of the vanilla rule-set. Arcane Sorcerors for the Familiar could be too much to track... But you know your players, and if they can handle it, that can be very effective. The Elemental...
Damn good advice. I'm thinking of treating the festival as an introduction to how much freedom they'll have from a roleplaying aspect, along with a few instances of skill checks and attacks to introduce them to their fickle friend the d20.
Then going to cram these first few encounters with goblins with as much mayhem and options as possible to introduce climb/acrobatics ( a rooftop chase ), combat manuevers (a cart of fireworks/explosives to bullrush before it reaches the chapel) and saving throws (molitov cocktails! Oh yeah.) as I can. The starting encounters are incredibly basic to begin with, so I'll be running the adventure straight.
I would definitely try and explain or SHOW the rules in some manner ahead of time. ...
+1
I would avoid the APG for now. 500+ pages of rules are enough for a beginner.
Barbarians are good, paladins are good if everyone is OK with a LG party member.
Bards are kind of up in the air. If anyone picks a sontanious caster, you might as well let them swap spells every level or so.
Avoid monks, animal companions, and make sure the rogue character understands his role in combat.
Give everyone a good Con score (dwarfs rock!), and make sure everyone has a decent AC. Large shields are good for 1st level characters. Keep the goblins tactics as presented - crazy! Make sure the first combats are fairly easy victories for the players. You might want to streamline a rule or two- (e.g.anyone can draw a weapon, as a move action, or whenever they move. )
Oh yeah, since these are new players, don't worry about high point buys, tons of equipment and choices, etc. They can't miss what they have never known...
And please post how things go. I think this is a great topic!
I'm wondering should I try and explain the rules/prod them for character ideas in advance or save it all for game day? I don't want to scare anybody off. :P
By all means prod in advance, though probe more than prod.
It fits into the question of what classes to use, honestly. In my experience, something to avoid is to make it look like you're saying "well, we'll put you on easy mode." No matter how complex class ____ is, if that's the gaming experience the player is looking for, that's going to be what gets them to come back.
Also, I'd work backwards from the adventure. A class combo that fits well with the constrains of what you're going to put them through is probably the most important part.
Besides a ´pre-game´ to introduce them to rules aspects while tying into and strengthening their RP connection to the character history/personality (which could be done either alone or in pairs (if two players are close and/or their PC concepts share a B/G),
I would just focus on trying to make sure that everybody can learn the most out of every encounter.
By this, I mean, making sure everybody pays attention (as much as feasable) to HOW and WHY other PCs and NPCs are taking their actions, or suffering effects of situational penalties, etc. THere´s about 10x as much stuff going on in a game than JUST their own personal PC´s actions, but that can be lost or tuned out... But maybe not if you play that up, and keep everybody involved. If they are enthusiastic to learn the game rules, that shouldn´t be overly hard (and they don´t ALL have to have 100% focus on every rules mechanical event... my point here is as much getting the whole group tuned into the game at large, which will quickly mean that your players will soon be able to help each other out or point out mistakes, etc)
I have done this a few times as a Christmas family game, a few years ago I ran Star Wars Saga and Christmas just gone, I ran a pf CotE game. It never ceases to amaze me who "gets it" and who doesn't however I did spend about an hour trying to explain AOO to my Mum without using the words attack or opportunity! (she sat out in the end).
Also it has introduced a new generation to the table as my nephew is now desperate to continue with the game (he's 8, same age I got my basic set!)
I found that for a one off, pre-gens were useful as I didn't have time to go through creation with them but I spent about 10 mins or so going through each character's strengths with them and gave them a handout with their backgrounds on.
Fighters can be incredibly effective while being very simple.
Greatsword, Power Attack, Furious Focus, Weapon Focus, 18 Strength.
Congrats, newbie...you'll love blowing goblins into orbit with +6 attack/2d6+9 damage at first level. Plus there is no maths involved to use Power Attack, giving the player a chance to get the game under control while laying the foundation for a highly effective character.
RotRl is a HARD adventure path. If you run with newbies and don't be careful, it will get really, really difficult. Coach them up on making mathematically decent characters and wise tactical decisions, or they're experience is going to be tainted by the difficulty (unless you do some serious DM sleight of hand).
Game's been delayed another week due to lack of time, but I have an Elf Ranger and a Gnome Druid, hoping the Druid isnt too advanced, but didnt want to rule anything out.
I was in a game that had a house rule about this. Players that were bran new to D&D had to play a human fighter as their first character, at least for a few levels. At low levels the basic mechanics are simple enough to explain on the fly. If that player then wanted to expand into another class that was fine.
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The d20pfsrd has some good resources for new players. Perhaps you could point them in the general direction of these two links, at least.
Step-by-step how to generate a brand new, 1st level character. I'd give them a Stat Array and help walk them through it, rather than total pre-gen's, but that's a personal preference. I have found, however, that players will attach themselves more strongly to PC's they have made, and often learning from the very get-go is an excellent way to achieve system mastery.
and...
With these two pieces of information, I am confident you can take a brand-new player, and get them rolling and chatting like seasoned pros in very little time. This is exactly how I was introduced to WARMACHINE , and was quickly able to move up to creating armies on my own & winning battles.
Finally, if you're dead set on having pre-gen's, I would recommend making one each of the classes. It's fairly easy (especially for 1st level with a standard stat array), will keep your own skills sharp (like remembering all the little things a Bard can do, or Bloodline abilities, etc...), and gives your players a wide range of mechanical options to pick from.
In RotRL, the first adventure (heck, the whole thing) is deliberately designed to introduce players to the nuts & bolts of "How Do We Play Pathfinder?" Run with that, introduce new technical options (and be sure to explain them - visual aides work great here) as they come up, and let them learn as they experience the game.
Good luck!
Make one pregen of each core class, except paladin (due to RP reasons). If you make the characters, they don't have to be complicated at all.
A few things though:
- Limit the amount of divine spells. Give a player playing a druid or cleric a list of maybe 10 first level spells, that's enough.
- Keep away from companions. Choose a domain for the druid and the bonded item for the wizard. If possible, avoid summoning spells.
- Simply give the monk full BAB, unless it's incredibly important for you to keep it RAW. The monk RAW has a weird half-assed BAB that unnecessarily complicated, and frankly, the monk can use the small boost that it is.
For the chars, I'd do this:
Barbarian - Half-orc HULK SMASH-kind of barb with greataxe.
Bard - Half-elven archer bard
Cleric - Human warrior-priest style cleric of Iomedae; somewhat replacing the paladin stereotype but without the extreme restrictions.
Druid - Gnome or half-elf caster druid with Air domain
Fighter - Half-elven fighter with elven curve blade (using alternate racial trait to get prof)
Monk - Human strength-focused monk
Ranger - Elven switch-hitter ranger
Rogue - Dwarven "locksmithy" rogue, using longspear.
Sorcerer - Halfling sorcerer of the fey bloodline
Wizard - Human diviner