I know about the MS/pistolero thing already. This is only somewhat related. Mostly, what I want to know is, does anyone else think the MS is severely underpowered? I am not posting this only as a gripe, but if anyone can point out a strong advantage I missed, I would appreciate it.
The luck bonus and deed replacements are OK. Nimble is defensive, so this seems like a 1:1 swap.
The CHA instead of WIS for grit doesn't have an obvious advantage to me, other than maybe complimenting a RP character. True, it might help with point buy, but WIS is useful enough on its own that this doesn't seem like a highly favorable trade.
And then there's stranger's fortune... And in a flawless sweep of it's hand, the MS loses much of its capability to deal damage, compared to any other archtype except for maybe gun tank.
You lose the ability to add bonus damage based on your DEX mod at lvl 5 (which also slowly increments at later levels) in order to ignore a number of misfires up to your CHA modifier per day. I understand you lose quick-clear, so this kind of makes up for that, but there's something wrong here. Stranger's fortune never increments. So already, you lose, outright.
But the MS also never gains an innate damage to bonus. Sure, ignoring misfires for weapons is OK, but if you look at Musket Training or Pistol Training, they both state that at a certain level (which is high, I know, BUT) you don't misfire with that weapon type at all. Ever.
The deed you gain to add damage output instead costs grit to use, and even though it multiples with dead shot, it also never increments and still seems exceedingly lackluster. Am I missing something?
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Addendum: As for the pistolero misprint issue, I'm not convinced it isn't RAI. Sure, as written, you'd get 2xDEX bonus damage, assuming you're using your gun training on pistols. But comparing musket master to pistolero, the musket master gets a bonus feat the pistolero does not, essentially making reloading just as fast as pistols, but for the higher-damage outputting muskets. Factor into that that pistols, depending on type, have half the range increment and do almost but not quite half the damage, and the two seem almost even to me.
EX: we'll say DEX mod for the example is 2.
MM has a musket (1d12) + DEX. So on a max roll, that's 14dmg.
P has a pistol (1d8) + DEX + DEX. So on a max roll, that's 12dmg.
This is just using innate damage bonuses, and not factoring in up close and deadly, or other abilities. Sure it can be hacked, but I think I understand the intent at work here, even if the execution isn't perfect. You'd still be limited to half the range of a musket and not be doing as much damage without grit. You could also burn a feat for weapon proficiency (firearms) and use gun training on non-pistol weapons for versatility.
Regardless, I would love a clarification or revision from Paizo on this. As Ultimate Combat has been out so long without a word one way or the other, I'm guessing it's not coming though.
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At a glance, the Mysterious Stranger makes a good dip for someone who has a class the relies more on Charisma, like a paladin, bard, oracle, or sorcerer.
Comparing max rolls is way less useful or informative than comparing average rolls, and no gunslinger is going to only have a 14 in Dex by level 5. Even ignoring other stuff and somewhat conservatively assuming only 16 Dex, you're starting out at
1d12 + 3 = 9.5 average damage.
vs.
1d8 + 6 = 10.5 average damage.
And the gulf only grows wider and wider, and that's before you factor in Up Close and Deadly. Musket Masters get an extra feat because Muskets are, without the help from archetypes, worse weapons. It's a worse fighting style, so to help it compensate, they get Rapid Reload for free - a feat the weapon needs in order to be basically functional. It's possible that the stacking gun training is RAI, but if it is it makes Pistoleros just insane.
Comparing max rolls is way less useful or informative than comparing average rolls, and no gunslinger is going to only have a 14 in Dex by level 5. Even ignoring other stuff and somewhat conservatively assuming only 16 Dex, you're starting out at
1d12 + 3 = 9.5 average damage.
vs.
1d8 + 6 = 10.5 average damage.And the gulf only grows wider and wider, and that's before you factor in Up Close and Deadly. Musket Masters get an extra feat because Muskets are, without the help from archetypes, worse weapons. It's a worse fighting style, so to help it compensate, they get Rapid Reload for free - a feat the weapon needs in order to be basically functional. It's possible that the stacking gun training is RAI, but if it is it makes Pistoleros just insane.
Perhaps, the way the rules were intended to work is, pistolero's pistol training counts as gun training would for every one-handed firearm. Which would mean those weapons cannot be selected for further training, as they are already considered to have been selected, via the pistol training ability?
they weren't intended to stack. the fact they do is a little insane. but to do the 2WF with pistols, you need a third hand. or a prehensile tail. which means either a tiefling or a 2nd level vivsectionist.
So, it looks like MS really is just intended as a convenient double dip for CHA-based characters. Hmm.
MS only loses the 1st gun-training, it gets the other ones.
MS only loses the 1st gun-training, it gets the other ones.No, no it doesn't. There aren't multiple class features called Gun Training, there's one Gun Training that scales with level. If you lose Gun Training 1, it can never scale with level.
I don't see that in the rules:
Gun Training (Ex)
Starting at 5th level, a gunslinger can select one specific type of firearm (such as an axe musket, blunderbuss, musket, or pistol). She gains a bonus equal to her Dexterity modifier on damage rolls when firing that type of firearm. Furthermore, when she misfires with that type of firearm, the misfire value of that firearm increases by 2 instead of 4. Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the gunslinger picks up another type of firearm, gaining these bonuses for those types as well.
Nothing scales on this. They select additional firearms to receive the same bonus.
If you never got it in the first place, you can't add to it later.
Generally when a class ability is listed as 'weapon training 1' or 'gun training 1) and its followed up by similar named abilities with a higher number they are actually all seperate abilities. Many of the archetypes trade them out.
with the errata, mysterious stranger gets gun training 1 when gunslinger normallts gets gun training 2.
In regards to the power level of mysterious stranger. I played one to the end of skull and shackles. However, we did a house rule that since dead shot simulated the full attack action you could use abilities that modify the full attack action like rapid shot and haste.
Without dipping into something else, this archetype doesn't seem like anything special. A 2 level dip into paladin makes this class alright though. Amazing saves, full BAB, smite evil (bonus to hit to compensate for deadly aim, not that ranged touch makes it that hard.), and a little bit of swift action healing.
After checking the PRD, I am now conflicted about whether or not the Mysterious Stranger gets Gun Training 2-4 (actually 1-3, just at the time a vanilla gunsliger would get 2-4). And if they do get Gun Training eventually, the archetype isn't nearly as terrible as it seemed previously. It's just subpar until level 9, and then it might actually surpass Pistolero (I'd have to run the numbers to be sure, but the more attacks made in a round the more likely it would be for MS>P)
Zahir and Mojorat have the right of it. You still get GunTraining 1-3, when you would normally get 2-4.
If an archetype replaces a class feature that is part of a series of improvements or additions to a base ability (such as a fighter's weapon training or a ranger's favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype. In effect, all abilities in that series are delayed until the next time the class improves that ability. For example, if an archetype replaces a rogue's +2d6 sneak attack bonus at 3rd level, when she reaches 5th level and gains a sneak attack bonus, her sneak attack doesn't jump from +1d6 to +3d6—it improves to +2d6, just as if she had finally gained the increase at 3rd level. This adjustment continues for every level at which her sneak attack would improve, until at 19th level she has +9d6 instead of the +10d6 of a standard rogue.
The gunslinger archtypes all suffer from bad editing and a lag of balance compared to the base class IMOP. With the new print of UC there should have been some work done.
*reads Sniggevert's post*
Well, I'll be damned.