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My thoughts on the Ultimate combat classes especially the gunslinger.
I am going to guess most of what I am going to say might have already been said.
Over the past couple of weeks, I have run two play tests. The first involved running a party of 1st level characters, ( Samurai, Ninja, Gunslinger, Magus, and Oracle) through the Module “Master’s of the Fallen Fortress.
The next play test I did, was an adventure of my own design, well that I kind of designed as I went along. I tried to roll with the dice. I put together a party of four 4th level characters: a gunslinger, the same first level gunslinger from the previous play test, and three of the Iconic characters, the ranger Harsk, the alchemist Damiel, and the cleric Kyra.
In the Master’s of the Fallen Fortress found the Samurai and Ninja at first level did just fine as an alternate cavalier and rogue classes.
I do however have a question about the Ninja’s Ki pool being based on Charsima. I worry that it might cause people to depend on too many ability scores. Perhaps wisdom might be a better skill off of which to base the Ki pool. That is just a thought that I am sure has been expressed elsewhere.
The gunslinger was another story so I wanted to play test it further. I wanted to give it a “fair shake” so to speak.
From my “gunslinger- yuck” thread, I have expressed my distaste over having guns in a fantasy setting. Many people have a knee jerk negative reaction to Psionics. I have an identical reaction to guns. But still I wanted to actually try the gunslinger and the fire arm rules, rather then simply stamp my feet and say I don’t like it, Sam I am, I don’t like green eggs and ham. I would not like it here nor there, I would not like it anywhere.
Excuse me I have digressed.
I realize that the Firearms rules were not open for play-test revisions, and were “on their way back from the printer”. I think I read somewhere, that these rules were going into the Golaron campaign setting book, which of course is setting specific, and different from the firearm rules going to be placed in the Ultimate combat.
That being said, From a GM’s perspective, and a GM who is hostile to fire arms, I didn’t mind the firearms as written with the 11 gp a shot cost. Nor did I mind the low rate of fire. I can now say after play testing the gunslinger and the fire arms rules as written, I don’t think they will wreck my campaign.
However from a player’s perspective, it is quite a different story.
As it has been said elsewhere, the 11 gp per shot is cost prohibitive.
The low rate of firing, and the static damage will probably present trouble at higher levels, but I didn’t see it at 4th level.
The grit mechanic needs allot of work. While I like the idea of a pool of points you spend to activate abilities (yeah psionics). I think it might be a better idea to base the Grit off of Charisma. Wisdom just seems counter intuitive to me. Unfortunately, there was nothing, other then Dead eye that I found I wanted to spend my character’s grit on.
Now that is just the game mechanics point of view. In a party I found I wasn’t quite sure what to do with the gunslinger.
Harsk the Iconic Ranger, could sneak, track, shoot things with his heavy crossbow, attack things with his axe, and throw apples.
Daamiel, the iconic Alchemist could deal decent damage with his bombs, find and disable traps, open locks, and he had some nice spells with his extracts. He could even use a wand of cure light wounds and heal.
Kyra the iconic cleric, was the mainstay of the party. With her blesses cure spells and channel energy, she held the party together. She could even do “meat shield “ duty, although that proved to be the end of that character. The dice to funny things
Now I wasn’t quite sure what to do with Porhtos the 4th level gunslinger I put together. Basically I had him shoot at things. Now perhaps it is just my own lack if imagination, or maybe I simply built my gunslinger poorly. Perhaps I never put him in a situation where he could shine. I really tried to use him, but, I never quite figured out what to do with him, so I used him as a ranged fighter. Now to be fair, I wasn’t sure what to do with the Alchemist until I played one in games with other players.
Finally there is the name of the class. Now I believe it was mentioned somewhere that when trying to pick a name for the Fighter-Mage Hybrid class, they did not want a compound name, so for better or worse they settled on the Magus. Ok Gunslinger? As people have mentioned before, it brings forth connotations of a western, especially with the mechanic named Grit.
Perhaps a simple solution would be to call the class the Musketeer, and to give it points of Panache. That is just a thought.
In summation, I have done my best to be fair. I have tried to be open about my prejudices, and I think I have tried to give the gunslinger and the fire arms rules a fair shake. At this point in its development, the gunslinger is a disappointment. I am sure the developers will be able to fix things up.
As a post script I just wanted to say, while the fire arms and gunslinger are not my cup of tea, I do appreciate that the folks at Paizo are willing to take a risk, and throw the things they are working on and developing out into our laps to let us kick them around. If the past development of the APG classes like the Oracle, is any prediction of how you will handle the Ultimate Combat I think you will surprise us and do an excellent job listening to our feed back and coming up with solutions we haven’t thought of.
Good luck, and yes I will still most likely buy the Ultimate Combat book.
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Kriegsmann55 thank you for your kind words.
The bayonet idea is an excellent one. I also realize, that as a free action, I could have had Porthos the 4th level gunslinger, drop a pistol, and draw a rapier, or long sword as a move equivalent action, and then attack.
Well Kriegsmann55 there is allot in a name. With the transition from 2nd edition to 3rd edition, the thief class was renamed the rogue class. I thought it did wonders to open up character concepts for the class. In my home games, I have changed the name of the Monk class to Martial Artist. I prefer a more general name, which makes it easier for people to come up with a variety of character concepts. After all there are plenty of monks who live in monasteries, they just happen to wear black robes, have a tonsure, and illuminate manuscripts. Likewise I think a Muskateer would be a name that evokes an atmosphere more closer to what I think they are trying to do rather then gunslinger which conjures up most recently Mr Le Beef, and Rooster Cogburn, and that girl, I wish I could remember her name, in True Grit. But then again, I don’t know what their fire arm rules actually are, and I think I read a post where one of the developers hinted at including rules where firearms were common and readily available and easy to use.
One last thought. A simple way to address the cost of the ammunition i.e. 1 gp per bullet and 10 gp per gunpowder packet is to allow someone with the Alchemy skill to make them. It isn't much of a stretch to let an Alchemist make gun powder packets, they already make their own magically infused bombs.
Again I wish the developers luck.
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A lovely addition overall to the ongoing Gunslinger debate if I might say so. I also enjoyed your thought of renaming the class as simply being a 'Musketeer', though in regards to what you mentioned about Porthos simply siting around and shooting, rather than doing anything else, I recommend you pick up a bayonet for the guy next time around as it'll give him a somewhat viable option in close combat. (Treating it as a short sword or dagger if handheld or as a 2 handed shortspear if fixed.)
I also don't care for the title "gunslinger." It sounds too Old West, not so much Middle Ages fantasy era. "Musketeer" would be a great alternative, and might add "Pistoleer" to the mix, maybe as an alternative Swashbuckler (an Alternate Class to an Alternate Class, eh?)
Well Kriegsmann55 there is allot in a name. With the transition from 2nd edition to 3rd edition, the thief class was renamed the rogue class. I thought it did wonders to open up character concepts for the class. In my home games, I have changed the name of the Monk class to Martial Artist. I prefer a more general name, which makes it easier for people to come up with a variety of character concepts. After all there are plenty of monks who live in monasteries, they just happen to wear black robes, have a tonsure, and illuminate manuscripts. Likewise I think a Muskateer would be a name that evokes an atmosphere more closer to what I think they are trying to do rather then gunslinger which conjures up most recently Mr Le Beef, and Rooster Cogburn, and that girl, I wish I could remember her name, in True Grit. But then again, I don’t know what their fire arm rules actually are, and I think I read a post where one of the developers hinted at including rules where firearms were common and readily available and easy to use.
+1 You've summed up exactly how I feel about the naming situation.
Thank you for your playtests and your report on them. I'm pretty much anti-gun in my fantasy settings too, so I'm glad it's not just the who gun lovers who are testing the gunslinger.
By the way, I'm not anti-gun in all settings, just the D&D-like settings that have been settled in my brain as no-gunpowder for years and years. I'd love to see Paizo publish a steampunk setting with a mix of magic, melee, and guns!
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Nightwish and Blueluck, thank you for your kind words.
Night wish, I agree with you about the term gunslinger.
Blueluck, it would be nice if they reconsidered the name of the class. Muskateer or perhaps postoleer might be better then gunslinger.
Oh you are welcome about the playtests, and my summation. I wanted to check out the rules and “kick the tires” so to speak. I didn’t want to simply stamp my feet and say
“ I do not like green eggs and ham Sam I am. I would not like it here nor there I would not like it anywhere. I would not like it in a box I would not like it with a fox….” You get the idea.
I wanted to actually be able to do as much of an unbiased examination of the rules. I wanted to be able to say, why I don’t like the gunslinger rather then just not liking the class.
I can now say, while I don’t like the gunslinger, I wont throw a fit if a player wants to play one. Ill keep him on a tight leash and use the 11 gp a shot rules. I can be reasonably sure guns with those rules won’t wreck my campaign.
And Blue Luck, I also don’t mind guns, say in a modern setting.
Good luck to you both and thank you for writing your thoughts down.