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*SIGH*. I don't know where to vent, because if I vent anywhere else on the boards I will be inundated with advice as to how to "fix" things.
In short, I ran Crimson Throne for the larger group on Saturday. They are 5th level. Because of their utter ineffectiveness in combat so far, I upped them to 20-point builds, and have them at slightly-higher-than wealth by level.
In spite of all of these efforts, on Saturday the fighter and paladin combined to take 5 rounds to kill ONE zombie.
Not some "super uber" zombie. Just... a zombie. Admittedly, it had max HP, so it was AC 12, HP 19, DR 5/slashing, but... 5 rounds. With both the fighter and the paladin combining their efforts to down ONE zombie. Of the nearly two dozen in the building.
I weep for my campaign...
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I don't always vent, but when I do, I vent naked...
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I dreamed last night that I worked in an embassy - either the US embassy in Russia or worked for the Russian embassy in the US. I was trying to get dressed in the morning but all I could find were sweatpants, which I couldn't wear to work. I knew I had just done laundry, so dress pants should have been in my closet, laundry room, or (for some reason) the back of my car, but they weren't there. When my car pool arrived, I had to stop at the store and buy dress pants and be late for work.
Embassy coworkers and I were screening a Fallout-style film about the Russian menace when the light bulb turned on: the Russians had stolen my pants because they didn't want me going to work! I told my boss and started an international espionage investigation. About my pants.
Fin.
my god- they were three steps head of you the whole time!
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*SIGH*. I don't know where to vent, because if I vent anywhere else on the boards I will be inundated with advice as to how to "fix" things.
In short, I ran Crimson Throne for the larger group on Saturday. They are 5th level. Because of their utter ineffectiveness in combat so far, I upped them to 20-point builds, and have them at slightly-higher-than wealth by level.
In spite of all of these efforts, on Saturday the fighter and paladin combined to take 5 rounds to kill ONE zombie.
Not some "super uber" zombie. Just... a zombie. Admittedly, it had max HP, so it was AC 12, HP 19, DR 5/slashing, but... 5 rounds. With both the fighter and the paladin combining their efforts to down ONE zombie. Of the nearly two dozen in the building.
I weep for my campaign...
Bad rolls? I've had campaigns like that.
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Because it's going to rain all day and hover around 50 degrees we're going to have a Seattle themed thanksgiving feast, so far all I can think of is fish and coffee, we'll probably do some sort of Asian fusion or something tho.
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Bad rolls? I've had campaigns like that.*SIGH*. I don't know where to vent, because if I vent anywhere else on the boards I will be inundated with advice as to how to "fix" things.
In short, I ran Crimson Throne for the larger group on Saturday. They are 5th level. Because of their utter ineffectiveness in combat so far, I upped them to 20-point builds, and have them at slightly-higher-than wealth by level.
In spite of all of these efforts, on Saturday the fighter and paladin combined to take 5 rounds to kill ONE zombie.
Not some "super uber" zombie. Just... a zombie. Admittedly, it had max HP, so it was AC 12, HP 19, DR 5/slashing, but... 5 rounds. With both the fighter and the paladin combining their efforts to down ONE zombie. Of the nearly two dozen in the building.
I weep for my campaign...
The fighter is a tank build with a tower shield and a strength of only 15, and he's spent all that money on defense. So his AC is 27, but he's only +5 to hit with his scimitar and does only 1d6+2. He did get more than his share of bad rolling (three misses), but a crit made up for one of the misses. He used Power Attack once, missed, and decided it wasn't worth the increased miss chance.
The paladin is a work of art. No magic weapon. No Power Attack. A strength of only 14 in a 20-point build. Once again, all the money went to weird stuff (scrolls, a 1000 g.p. show horse, defensive stuff), so her weapon was an ordinary one-handed war hammer. So she was only +7 to hit, and did 1d8+2 but she was up against DR 5. So she hit every single round, and did about average damage, which is... 1.5 points per round.
So it's an amazing tableau of incompetence. The level 5 wizard's bread-and-butter is a 1st-level wand of Magic Missile. The ONE time she did something different she dropped the paladin in a spiked pit with four wererats. But yeah, she's good for... 1d4+1 every other round, because half the time she's wandering around looking for a better position. The fighter and the paladin run off on their own, because their high ACs and hit points render them nigh invulnerable. Trouble is, they can't hit anything, and do almost no damage when they do manage a hit.
So my "6-player" campaign really has 3 players who ever do anything: A rogue dagger build who does an extra 3d8 whenever he gets a flank. Unfortunately, neither the paladin nor the fighter ever give him one. It's become such an issue the player wants to retire the character out of frustration. There's a ranger who's been described as "competence with ADD". When he's doing the right thing, he's quite effective. More often than not, he's doing something that makes no sense. Then there's the poor cleric. She told everyone, "Since we already have a fighter, a ranger, a paladin, and a combat-focused rogue, I'm focusing on a support build for my cleric."
And they all ditch her so she never actually gets to support any of them. She's taken to wandering into the middle of combat just to provide the rogue with a flank using her mighty 1d4-1 dagger.
*SIGH*
So in spite of the fact that ALL of Books 1 and 2 try to teach the PCs, "Going in the front door is ALWAYS bad", they have yet to do so much as scout around a building before just pounding on the front door to go in.
My assumption is that there will be a TPK at the temple. It's designed so that even a fairly optimized group will be hard-pressed to survive going in the very-obviously-dangerous front door. The entire AP from the get-go screams, "Do not do this."
And yet I've told the players multiple times, "Yeah, this AP is designed to punish you for going in the front door" in the hopes of getting them to change their tactics before I kill 'em all, and so far they've totally ignored me, and it's still, "We open the front door and the fighter and paladin run in before the cleric can cast anything on them."
That will be very, very painful at the temple...
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F*%#! I thought my party was bad. :-D
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** spoiler omitted **...Bad rolls? I've had campaigns like that.*SIGH*. I don't know where to vent, because if I vent anywhere else on the boards I will be inundated with advice as to how to "fix" things.
In short, I ran Crimson Throne for the larger group on Saturday. They are 5th level. Because of their utter ineffectiveness in combat so far, I upped them to 20-point builds, and have them at slightly-higher-than wealth by level.
In spite of all of these efforts, on Saturday the fighter and paladin combined to take 5 rounds to kill ONE zombie.
Not some "super uber" zombie. Just... a zombie. Admittedly, it had max HP, so it was AC 12, HP 19, DR 5/slashing, but... 5 rounds. With both the fighter and the paladin combining their efforts to down ONE zombie. Of the nearly two dozen in the building.
I weep for my campaign...
And yes, the anti front door tropes were...annoying.
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Spoilered stuff.
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** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **...Bad rolls? I've had campaigns like that.*SIGH*. I don't know where to vent, because if I vent anywhere else on the boards I will be inundated with advice as to how to "fix" things.
In short, I ran Crimson Throne for the larger group on Saturday. They are 5th level. Because of their utter ineffectiveness in combat so far, I upped them to 20-point builds, and have them at slightly-higher-than wealth by level.
In spite of all of these efforts, on Saturday the fighter and paladin combined to take 5 rounds to kill ONE zombie.
Not some "super uber" zombie. Just... a zombie. Admittedly, it had max HP, so it was AC 12, HP 19, DR 5/slashing, but... 5 rounds. With both the fighter and the paladin combining their efforts to down ONE zombie. Of the nearly two dozen in the building.
I weep for my campaign...
The only reason I'll politely disagree (and I hesitate to do even that on FaWtL, since this is supposed to be a "conflict-free zone") is that I ran through Crimson Throne once before with my family and it was my second-favorite-ever AP. The DR was never a problem for that party, because the AP so strongly warns you what you're up against and has so many creatures with DR that you really have no excuse for not preparing. "You're about to run up against xxx. They have DR/yyy. You can buy stuff that bypasses it here. Oh, and here's a big cash reward just before you need to go there."
So yeah, it's a DR-heavy campaign, but the foreshadowing as to what you'll need is massive.
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Do you need a hug, I have step by step illustrated instructions, so now I know how. :-)
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Yeah I'm very heavily on Nobody's side on this one, CotCT is one of the best-written campaigns ever (if not THE best, which it's most certainly a contender) and I'm incredibly looking forward to running it for my group.
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I think I have angered Old Man Freehold -- it's supposed to top out at 58 today... brrr!!!!
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*shrug* tastes vary. I do know in my group the golf bag/DR effect was getting really, really old, possibly due to the campaign we had been in beforehand. That said, I am something of a DR fan- I worked it into my rules for masterwork armor for home brew- but not to the extent the writers of cotct are.
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that's a ways away from me, more in CH's direction in general. I'm sure she will be fine.I was off seeing my niece before she is off to NY, She changed her mind and is going to Pearson college as opposed to Pratt. She will be living in queens 1 block from the subway with a 25 minute train ride to school.
450 sq ft for $1,450, I guess it's a little cheaper than brooklyn.
I've never heard of Pearson, and can't find anything about it online. Is it known by another name?
Depending on where in Queens she lives, it is indeed possible she lives closer to me than Freehold.
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I think I have angered Old Man Freehold -- it's supposed to top out at 58 today... brrr!!!!
that's 22 degrees warmer than we're expecting today, and tomorrow.
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It's currently 61 here with a low of 41.
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*spoilered stuff*
So what you need is my urban barbarian from Patrick's Reign of Winter PbP. At 1st level, when raging, he power attacks with his greatsword for +7 to hit, 2d6+12 damage. And I wasn't even trying to make an overpowered character. Just a human barbarian with 18 str.
Sometimes, the best defense is a good offense.
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Sometimes, the best defense is a good offense.
This is really the key.
Not to start an argument or rules war or anything, but I have to strongly disagree with the idea that D&D/PF is a defensive game... if anything it's the exact opposite, the game rewards direct offense and "enemies can't threaten you if they're dead/disabled" far more than playing defensively and waiting/outlasting the opponent.
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*spoilered stuff*So what you need is my urban barbarian from Patrick's Reign of Winter PbP. At 1st level, when raging, he power attacks with his greatsword for +7 to hit, 2d6+12 damage. And I wasn't even trying to make an overpowered character. Just a human barbarian with 18 str.
Sometimes, the best defense is a good offense.
indeed, cotct seems to cleave heavily to that line of thought.
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It's currently 61 here with a low of 41.
46/34. That explains a lot about this morning >_<
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that's a ways away from me, more in CH's direction in general. I'm sure she will be fine.I was off seeing my niece before she is off to NY, She changed her mind and is going to Pearson college as opposed to Pratt. She will be living in queens 1 block from the subway with a 25 minute train ride to school.
450 sq ft for $1,450, I guess it's a little cheaper than brooklyn.
I've never heard of Pearson, and can't find anything about it online. Is it known by another name?
Depending on where in Queens she lives, it is indeed possible she lives closer to me than Freehold.
Oops, I got the name wrong its Parsons
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Sometimes, the best defense is a good offense.This is really the key.
Not to start an argument or rules war or anything, but I have to strongly disagree with the idea that D&D/PF is a defensive game... if anything it's the exact opposite, the game rewards direct offense and "enemies can't threaten you if they're dead/disabled" far more than playing defensively and waiting/outlasting the opponent.
I'm sorry, but there are dozens upon dozens of modules and adventure paths and even entire campaign settings that strongly and demonstrably disagree with this sentiment in numerous incarnations and editions of this game up to and including the writer of said adventure(s) telling the person running it to not have the players fight in an encounter(Strahd, anyone?).
What you speak of exists, but in the long view, is relatively recent.
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Sometimes, the best defense is a good offense.This is really the key.
Not to start an argument or rules war or anything, but I have to strongly disagree with the idea that D&D/PF is a defensive game... if anything it's the exact opposite, the game rewards direct offense and "enemies can't threaten you if they're dead/disabled" far more than playing defensively and waiting/outlasting the opponent.
I'm sorry, but there are dozens upon dozens of modules and adventure paths and even entire campaign settings that strongly and demonstrably disagree with this sentiment in numerous incarnations and editions of this game up to and including the writer of said adventure(s) telling the person running it to not have the players fight in an encounter(Strahd, anyone?).
What you speak of exists, but in the long view, is relatively recent.
Chill out, man.
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I can kinda understand the tower shield tank, The paladin needs a rebuild. How old are your players?
LOL. That's the absolute worst part.
I'm running a Serpent's Skull game for 7 kids aged 11-14 (plus one adult who glommed on and is willing to let the kids have their fun). At least one of them (Mr. Stereotype) has never played in an RPG before, and I think I have one or two more in the same boat.
Yet every single one of those kids (even Izran now that he's no longer a 0-point build) is a more effective player than our two "30-year D&D vets" (the wizard and the paladin) in the Crimson Throne game.
It's just VERY weird how amazingly ineffective they manage to be.
I think adults are far more likely to fall into a rut of, "Oh, wait. What I was planning on doing isn't going to work. Well, I don't want to slow down the game by sitting here being indecisive, so I'll just delay until I figure out what I want to do."
The kids just do whatever random whim pops into their teensy brains.
And it is hilarious, delightful, and occasionally effective...
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As counterintuitive as it seems, pathfinder really is a game that benefits from rash decisions.
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LOL. That's the absolute worst part.
I'm running a Serpent's Skull game for 7 kids aged 11-14 (plus one adult who glommed on and is willing to let the kids have their fun). At least one of them (Mr. Stereotype) has never played in an RPG before, and I think I have one or two more in the same boat.
Yet every single one of those kids (even Izran now that he's no longer a 0-point build) is a more effective player than our two "30-year D&D vets" (the wizard and the paladin) in the Crimson Throne game.
It's just VERY weird how amazingly ineffective they manage to be.
I think adults are far more likely to fall into a rut of, "Oh, wait. What I was planning on doing isn't going to work. Well, I don't want to slow down the game by sitting here being indecisive, so I'll just delay until I figure out what I want to do."
The kids just to whatever random whim pops into their teensy brains.
And it is hilarious, delightful, and occasionally effective...
That's a big group my hats off to you for managing that many players at a table. Well as long as the kids are having fun that's really all that matters.
Now the 30 year vets...Did they not play for an extended period of time?
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...lots of stuff...
Oh, great. Now a moderator is going to pop on and say, "Now, now, what's all this then? Who started this kerfuffle on FaWtL?"
And everyone's going to say, "It's Nobody's fault..."| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Chill out, man.Sometimes, the best defense is a good offense.This is really the key.
Not to start an argument or rules war or anything, but I have to strongly disagree with the idea that D&D/PF is a defensive game... if anything it's the exact opposite, the game rewards direct offense and "enemies can't threaten you if they're dead/disabled" far more than playing defensively and waiting/outlasting the opponent.
I'm sorry, but there are dozens upon dozens of modules and adventure paths and even entire campaign settings that strongly and demonstrably disagree with this sentiment in numerous incarnations and editions of this game up to and including the writer of said adventure(s) telling the person running it to not have the players fight in an encounter(Strahd, anyone?).
What you speak of exists, but in the long view, is relatively recent.
you are already complaning about the cold!
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Of course with my wife and kids, it also requires a liberal idea of what's edible :-D
For the record, if it doesn't have poison in it's stat block it's edible.
If it does, that needs to be extracted first.
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Of course with my wife and kids, it also requires a liberal idea of what's edible :-D
For the record, if it doesn't have poison in it's stat block it's edible.
If it does, that needs to be extracted first.
it's good eating.
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That's a big group my hats off to you for managing that many players at a table. Well as long as the kids are having fun that's really all that matters.
Now the 30 year vets...Did they not play for an extended period of time?
Slides right off of 'em, and they know it's not personal. Life is better when you can be blunt.
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And now will you please rise for Freeholds anthem
I'm Mister White Christmas
I'm Mister Snow
I'm Mister Icicle
I'm Mister Ten Below
Friends call me Snow Miser,
What ever I touch
Turns to snow in my clutch
I'm too much!
He's Mister White Christmas
He's Mister Snow
He's Mister Icicle
He's Mister Ten Below
Friends call me Snow Miser,
What ever I touch
Turns to snow in my clutch
He's too much!
I never want to know a day
That's over forty degrees
I'd rather have it thirty,
Twenty, then Five, then let it freeze!
(brrrrrrrrrrr!)
He's Mister White Christmas
He's Mister Snow
He's Mister Icicle
He's Mister Ten Below
Friends call me Snow Miser,
What ever I touch
Turns to snow in my clutch,
Too much.
Too Much!
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I force my kids to watch that every. Single. Year. As I bellow along and dance to all the songs, horrifically off-key and inept.
And now it is one of their favorite Christmas shows. Go figure.
But who can dislike a kids' show with a line like, "You're under arrest for riding a Vixen the wrong way..."
Oh, MY!
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The kids' group isn't so bad because there's inevitably at least one no-show, and usually 2, so it's more like a 6-group. Still far bigger than my preferred group size (3), but the great thing about running teenagers is that they're totally OK with you saying, "It's not your turn, so shut up."
Slides right off of 'em, and they know it's not personal. Life is better when you can be blunt.
The vets were fine in our 3-year RQ game. I think the problem is that they're dealing with 2 VERY disruptive toddlers, brutal work schedules, and complicated lives. So they WANT to game (we canceled the last game with them in it because it seemed too hard on them, yet they reappeared and begged me to run SOMETHING for them). Their focus just isn't there. They don't have the luxury of time outside of the game to think about what to do, and they're so distracted during the game that they get nothing done. It's more than a little frustrating for everyone else at the table, but they so desperately want a steady game I'm willing to bite the bullet and give them one. Though at the rate it's going, it will eventually just be me and them...
So your saying the elder statesmen don't have time to goof off on the boards eh.
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And now will you please rise for Freeholds anthem
I'm Mister White Christmas
I'm Mister Snow
I'm Mister Icicle
I'm Mister Ten Below
Friends call me Snow Miser,
What ever I touch
Turns to snow in my clutch
I'm too much!
He's Mister White Christmas
He's Mister Snow
He's Mister Icicle
He's Mister Ten Below
Friends call me Snow Miser,
What ever I touch
Turns to snow in my clutch
He's too much!
I never want to know a day
That's over forty degrees
I'd rather have it thirty,
Twenty, then Five, then let it freeze!
(brrrrrrrrrrr!)
He's Mister White Christmas
He's Mister Snow
He's Mister Icicle
He's Mister Ten Below
Friends call me Snow Miser,
What ever I touch
Turns to snow in my clutch,
Too much.
Too Much!
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I force my kids to watch that every. Single. Year. As I bellow along and dance to all the songs, horrifically off-key and inept.
And now it is one of their favorite Christmas shows. Go figure.
But who can dislike a kids' show with a line like, "You're under arrest for riding a Vixen the wrong way..."
Oh, MY!
I watch all those Rankin-Bass shows every year
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Our Christmas ritual is Muppet Christmas Carol.
Though I'm going to try and introduce Hogfather this year.
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Our Christmas ritual is Muppet Christmas Carol.
Though I'm going to try and introduce Hogfather this year.
my wife reads it every year and watches it every new year/january.
Me, I watch Mobile Suit Gundam movie trilogy.
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** spoiler omitted **
{adds CoCT to The List}
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Family Guy Star Wars trilogy, also the classics, I was especially a huge fan of Rudolph.
** spoiler omitted **{adds CoCT to The List}
oh come now, I don't hate cotct! I love much of it I just don't care for the overarching amount of DR and the one hard to explain rules wise plot twist.
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Also, my hatred for math is so great, it must be placed at the top of the list several times.
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Da! Da! *sob* *whimper*
Is true. Only vith Treppa's pants vill ve preserve security of Glorious People's Soviet Republic of Russia. Is necessary to achieve Trouser Parity vit United States of America.
Autumn comes. Slow runs the Vistula and in silence of Russian forest, leaves turn brown and die.
Am sad.
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Sometimes, the best defense is a good offense.This is really the key.
Not to start an argument or rules war or anything, but I have to strongly disagree with the idea that D&D/PF is a defensive game... if anything it's the exact opposite, the game rewards direct offense and "enemies can't threaten you if they're dead/disabled" far more than playing defensively and waiting/outlasting the opponent.
It is quite simply that winning is easy if you prevent your opponent from ever getting a turn.
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Taking Pea Bear to her audition in 15 minutes, she should do exceptionally well, she's been singing Disney and Julie Andrews songs since she learned to talk. :-)
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Best of luck!