I would like to use firearms in my game, but I would like to make them more realistic and dangerous. I have two options that I'm entertaining.
Revolver: medium weapon, 1d10 damage 19-20/x3 attacks rolled against target touch armor class.
Revolver: medium weapon, 1d10 damage 16-20/x3 attacks rolled normally.
In both cases, the firearm has six shots before needing to be reloaded and reloads as a full round action. Range increment of 100 feet.
I don't need any arguments that arrows and bolts are any less deadly than bullets, but guns did make the use of a bow obsolete. I want a different take on guns without breaking the game. Guns are not going to be readily available to my players, so I doubt they will be used at all, by the players.
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I would like to use firearms in my game, but I would like to make them more realistic and dangerous. I have two options that I'm entertaining.
Revolver: medium weapon, 1d10 damage 19-20/x3 attacks rolled against target touch armor class.
Revolver: medium weapon, 1d10 damage 16-20/x3 attacks rolled normally.
In both cases, the firearm has six shots before needing to be reloaded and reloads as a full round action. Range increment of 100 feet.
I don't need any arguments that arrows and bolts are any less deadly than bullets, but guns did make the use of a bow obsolete. I want a different take on guns without breaking the game. Guns are not going to be readily available to my players, so I doubt they will be used at all, by the players.
Make touch AC within a certain range like within 30ft or 40ft and make it full AC past that. It gives the players some incentive NOT to rush into melee for fear of damage, but gives you some compassion in odd levels where those guns are going to destroy things.
I wouldn't make the crit range from 16-20...that is devestating.
I would like to use firearms in my game, but I would like to make them more realistic and dangerous. I have two options that I'm entertaining.
Revolver: medium weapon, 1d10 damage 19-20/x3 attacks rolled against target touch armor class.
Revolver: medium weapon, 1d10 damage 16-20/x3 attacks rolled normally.
In both cases, the firearm has six shots before needing to be reloaded and reloads as a full round action. Range increment of 100 feet.
I don't need any arguments that arrows and bolts are any less deadly than bullets, but guns did make the use of a bow obsolete. I want a different take on guns without breaking the game. Guns are not going to be readily available to my players, so I doubt they will be used at all, by the players.
Make touch AC within a certain range like within 30ft or 40ft and make it full AC past that. It gives the players some incentive NOT to rush into melee for fear of damage, but gives you some compassion in odd levels where those guns are going to destroy things.
I wouldn't make the crit range from 16-20...that is devestating.
I like putting a range limit on touch ac idea.
The reason I listed 16-20 was because improved crit would allow a 10-20 threat range. It is very dangerous and will devastate an opponent, but guns are supposed to be scary. Though it probably will be too much.
I like the Iron Kingdoms way of making firearms. A revolver in that setting, dubbed as "Radliffe Firestorm" is a 5 shot 2d6 light weapon, 19-20/x3 crit range, takes a full-round action to reload and have a range increment of 70ft.
It doesn't ignores armor.
Also, for those who are curious. A revolver isn't possible without the advance of the primer cap from the 1800s. A flint-lock version wouldn't hold powder very well & would be more of a hazard to the wielder than the opponents, since it'd practically guaranteed to fire multiple chambers simultaneously every fight.
The earliest known revolver was made in 1597, about a decade before the advent of the flintlock, and roughly 200 years before the first percussion cap.
I recently downloaded the play test and looked at the gunslinger. I think the class is nifty and has a lot of potential.
So, if we look at the specifications for what they have said are for the muskets we can extrapolate what one could expect for a revolver or cartridge rifle.
Going from muskets to cartridge firearms was a huge evolution in weaponry. The advent of conical bullets, rifling, and cartridges increased accuracy and range of firearms.
I would give a revolver a capacity of 5 or 6, misfire of 1, range increment of 40 feet, and 1d12 damage.
A cartridge rifle would have a capacity of 4-5, misfire of 1, range of 80 feet, and deal 2d6 damage.
What does everyone think? Better technology means a greater range, higher capacity, and a step up in damage done.
Rifling was known about far before the flintlock. Even conical bullets were known, yet spherical bullets remained the standard just for ease of loading.
Flintlocks to percussion caps was a pretty quick transition once the technology was discovered, 200 years after the flintlock came about. From the time percussion caps were invented until the cartridge came about was a span of fifty years.
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The problem wasn't with the rifling. Black powder built up residue in the barrel very quickly making, clogging the barrel and causing the gun to jam at best and explode at worst. they got around this by making the barrels loose around the bullet. This made the bullet bounce around the barrel and made rifling unfeasible until the invention of gunpowder. Also until the use of rifling was invented bows and crossbows were better.
The problem wasn't with the rifling. Black powder built up residue in the barrel very quickly making, clogging the barrel and causing the gun to jam at best and explode at worst. they got around this by making the barrels loose around the bullet. This made the bullet bounce around the barrel and made rifling unfeasible until the invention of gunpowder. Also until the use of rifling was invented bows and crossbows were better.
...what?
No. Smoothbore weapons were in use LONG before rifling came to be. Using smoothbore weapons even after rifling became known was a result of superstition and speed. See the post I linked to for more information on that. Despite that, rifling was still the superior choice for marksmanship. Residue buildup wasn't enough to be a huge issue over the course of a battle. Maybe over a long period IF never cleaned, but no idiots would fail to clean their weapon when they had a chance...
Black powder IS gunpowder. If you mean smokeless powder, however, the substance used in modern casings? That's different. That came about in the late 1800s. Guess what? Rifled, black powder weapons were being used for around a hundred years AT LEAST before that.
Further, guns outstripped bows and crossbows somewhere in the early 1200s, when the Chinese first started using them. Once the Europeans got a hold of the technology? It became the standard for warfare within a few years. Ought to say something about their effectiveness vs bows and crossbows...
Rifling wasn't PROMINENT, but it was known as early as 1476. Superstition made rifling unpopular, along with the length of time it would take to load a rifled muzzle-loader, all to fire one shot.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Revolver: medium weapon, 1d10 damage 16-20/x3 attacks rolled normally.
I don't need any arguments that arrows and bolts are any less deadly than bullets, but guns did make the use of a bow obsolete. I want a different take on guns without breaking the game.
I don't know your definition on breaking the game, but your gun listed there in the hands of a 15th level highly optimized Gunslinger is as follows:
.80*(5.5+16+8)+.6*.85*(3*(5.5+16+8)+3)+.80*(5.5+16+8)+.6*.85*(3*(5.5+16+8)+ 3)+.55*(5.5+16+8)+.6*.60*(3*(5.5+16+8)+3)+.30*(5.5+16+8)+.6*.35*(3*(5.5+16+ 8)+3)
217.76 DPR (an increase of 48% over the absolute best Pathfinder can do with a longbow)
If you consider 147.1235 Longbow DPR increased by 48% to 217.76 DPR not breaking the game, then cool.
Revolver: medium weapon, 1d10 damage 16-20/x3 attacks rolled normally.
I don't need any arguments that arrows and bolts are any less deadly than bullets, but guns did make the use of a bow obsolete. I want a different take on guns without breaking the game.
I don't know your definition on breaking the game, but your gun listed there in the hands of a 15th level highly optimized Gunslinger is as follows:
>40' & <=80 ' Deadly Aim/Rapid Shot/IC/IPS/WS/GWF/PaleGreenIoun vs AC 30 (CR 15 suggestion Bestiary p291)
** spoiler omitted **
217.76 DPR (an increase of 48% over the absolute best Pathfinder can do with a longbow)If you consider 147.1235 Longbow DPR increased by 48% to 217.76 DPR not breaking the game, then cool.
Yeah, there's no way I'd allow a 16-20/x3 weapon in the game, especially since with 1 feat you jump to 11-20/x3 critical hits. 18-20/x3 would be pushing it, but possibly more reasonable. Someone smart want to do the DPR math on that and check out how that turns out?
Yeah, there's no way I'd allow a 16-20/x3 weapon in the game, especially since with 1 feat you jump to 11-20/x3 critical hits. 18-20/x3 would be pushing it, but possibly more reasonable. Someone smart want to do the DPR math on that and check out how that turns out?Revolver: medium weapon, 1d10 damage 16-20/x3 attacks rolled normally.
I don't need any arguments that arrows and bolts are any less deadly than bullets, but guns did make the use of a bow obsolete. I want a different take on guns without breaking the game.
I don't know your definition on breaking the game, but your gun listed there in the hands of a 15th level highly optimized Gunslinger is as follows:
>40' & <=80 ' Deadly Aim/Rapid Shot/IC/IPS/WS/GWF/PaleGreenIoun vs AC 30 (CR 15 suggestion Bestiary p291)
** spoiler omitted **
217.76 DPR (an increase of 48% over the absolute best Pathfinder can do with a longbow)If you consider 147.1235 Longbow DPR increased by 48% to 217.76 DPR not breaking the game, then cool.
I agree. I still need some feedback on how to advance the PF Ultimate Combat muskets to revolvers or lever action rifles.
Increased capacity
Increased damage dice
Increased range increment +10 feet for revolver; 20 for rifle
Increased price on the weapon itself
Increased price on cartridge: 16 gold per shot (up from 11)
Great idea.