An alchemist can use a mutagen at any time to gain +4 strenght and +2 natural armor, with a -2 intelligence as an only drawback for ten minutes per level. He can do it at will as long as he takes the time to create a new mutagen between each use. It can also affect other abilities the same way. Am I missing something, or is this exceptionally better than the berserk rage on any aspect?
An alchemist can use a mutagen at any time to gain +4 strenght and +2 natural armor, with a -2 intelligence as an only drawback for ten minutes per level. He can do it at will as long as he takes the time to create a new mutagen between each use. It can also affect other abilities the same way. Am I missing something, or is this exceptionally better than the berserk rage on any aspect?
You do realize penalties to Int will reduce his bombs+damage/day. As well as reduce his extracts/day.
Sadly, just like a wizard who has his int reduced the spell slots don't come back.
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It takes him a precious standard action to do that, he's going to get crushed by any melee class of similar levels of optimization if he tries to make use of that strength.
The fact that the barbarian does not use a standard action to activate his rage makes it imo a far superior ability, it is also one that synergizes much better with his class.
It becomes much better if he uses it before combat begins, but even so to my mind he is going to be better off throwing bombs and probably using the dex increasing mutagen choice instead.
And the time to create a mutagen is one hour, I have trouble believing most parties will be prepared to wait this long in a typical adventure - I certainly would not be.
You do realize penalties to Int will reduce his bombs+damage/day. As well as reduce his extracts/day.
Sadly, just like a wizard who has his int reduced the spell slots don't come back.
No actually. Penalties work differently now, and i believe that drain is the only one that will cause the loss of spell slots and bombs.
Ability Score Damage, Penalty, and Drain
Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die. Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration.
Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.
It takes him a precious standard action to do that, he's going to get crushed by any melee class of similar levels of optimization if he tries to make use of that strength.
The fact that the barbarian does not use a standard action to activate his rage makes it imo a far superior ability, it is also one that synergizes much better with his class.
It becomes much better if he uses it before combat begins, but even so to my mind he is going to be better off throwing bombs and probably using the dex increasing mutagen choice instead.
And the time to create a mutagen is one hour, I have trouble believing most parties will be prepared to wait this long in a typical adventure - I certainly would not be.
In addition to all of that, barbarians have bull BAB, martial weapons, and medium armor. The alchemist's transformation ability may last longer, but he's still playing catch-up to the barbarian when it comes to combat.
I have seen a couple melee alchemists so far. They are formidable, but overall not significantly better than other classes. Barbarian-Alchemists can be really impressive.
You do realize penalties to Int will reduce his bombs+damage/day. As well as reduce his extracts/day.
Sadly, just like a wizard who has his int reduced the spell slots don't come back.
No actually. Penalties work differently now, and i believe that drain is the only one that will cause the loss of spell slots and bombs.
Ability Score Damage, Penalty, and Drain
Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.
Usually just lurk here, but I had to chime in. The rules as you quoted them there are pretty clear, "but it does apply a penalty to skills and statistics that are based on that ability." Bombs/day, extra bomb damage, and bonus extracts for high int are all derived statistics of int, so with a str mutagen, you do lose extra bombs, 1 point of extra bomb damage, and and extra extract possibly.
Well here's some additional chum to the water.
Ability Damage, Drain, and Penalty(4/23/10)
Q: I am confused on the different types of Ability Damage, Drain, and Penalty. Plus some spells like Ray of Enfeeblement and Touch of Idiocy seem to even have special rules. How do these effects really work?
A: (James Jacobs 4/23/10) Ability damage only results in a penalty to actions associated with that ability score; it does NOT make you lose access to feats or spells that require ability score minimums, since your actual ability score does not lower. Only ability DRAIN can make you lose access to spells you can cast or feats that have prerequisites.
But it's not that simple. Some effects that cause ability damage or ability penalties DO have additional effects. Touch of idiocy is one such spell, since it says in the spell's description that it affects the target's ability to cast some or all of its spells if the penalty imparted to the ability score drops low enough. This is an exception to the general rule for ability scores and applies only to touch of idiocy (the point of the spell, really, is to be a lesser version of feeblemind that screws over spellcasters, after all).
Ray of enfeeblement, on the other hand, does NOT have this type of language. It merely works as a normal penalty to an ability score.
1. A 12th-level wizard with a 16 Intelligence takes a 3 point Intelligence penalty from Touch of Idiocy. What is the highest level spell he can cast, sixth or third?
1. Third.
2. A 12th-level wizard with a 16 Intelligence takes 3 points of Intelligence damage. What is the highest level spell he can cast, sixth or third?
1. Sixth.
3. A 12th-level wizard with a 16 Intelligence takes 3 points of Intelligence drain. What is the highest level spell he can cast, sixth or third?
1. Third.
4. A fighter with 13 strength and the Power Attack feat takes a 3 point Strength penalty from Ray of Enfeeblement. Can he Power Attack?
1. Yes.
5. A fighter with 13 strength and the Power Attack feat takes 3 points of Strength Damage. Can he Power Attack?
1. Yes.
6. A fighter with 13 strength and the Power Attack feat takes 3 points of Strength Drain. Can he Power Attack?
1. No.
Usually just lurk here, but I had to chime in. The rules as you quoted them there are pretty clear, "but it does apply a penalty to skills and statistics that are based on that ability." Bombs/day, extra bomb damage, and bonus extracts for high int are all derived statistics of int, so with a str mutagen, you do lose extra bombs, 1 point of extra bomb damage, and and extra extract possibly.
Make your Bombs and Extracts in the Morning before chugging your Mutagen and you're fine (the damage would still go down I guess, but the total numbers of are decided when you make them, not when you use them)
otherwise characters with less than INT:10+extract level, wouldn't be able to use the extract either.
Make your Bombs and Extracts in the Morning before chugging your Mutagen and you're fine (the damage would still go down I guess, but the total numbers of are decided when you make them, not when you use them)
otherwise characters with less than INT:10+extract level, wouldn't be able to use the extract either.
Works for extracts, not bombs. Bombs are made and thrown as a standard action. They explode shortly after being made, unless you have the delay bomb discovery.
Make your Bombs and Extracts in the Morning before chugging your Mutagen and you're fine (the damage would still go down I guess, but the total numbers of are decided when you make them, not when you use them)
otherwise characters with less than INT:10+extract level, wouldn't be able to use the extract either.Works for extracts, not bombs. Bombs are made and thrown as a standard action. They explode shortly after being made, unless you have the delay bomb discovery.
I dunno, reading the explanation of Bombs in the APG, it mentions that the Catalyst is made in the morning, and taht as long as you have the catalyst ready, you can make a bomb, and since the penalty is only temporary (does changing your mutagen to dex (like through an infused mutagen) allow one to make more bombs? if so, why does staying STR for your 10 mins/level limit it?) I'd say you can make your bomb (I mean it IS just a 1 bomb difference afterall) DCs and Damage change because of the Penalty(you're not putting the catalyst and shaking quite the right number of times), but total number wouldn't, IMHO.
I dunno, reading the explanation of Bombs in the APG, it mentions that the Catalyst is made in the morning, and taht as long as you have the catalyst ready, you can make a bomb, and since the penalty is only temporary (does changing your mutagen to dex (like through an infused mutagen) allow one to make more bombs? if so, why does staying STR for your 10 mins/level limit it?) I'd say you can make your bomb (I mean it IS just a 1 bomb difference afterall) DCs and Damage change because of the Penalty(you're not putting the catalyst and shaking quite the right number of times), but total number wouldn't, IMHO.
I would disagree. The explanation of bombs also says that catalyst flask never go bad, meaning that a catalyst flask prepared at first level but thrown at tenth functions as a tenth level bomb, not a first. The properties of the bomb, including type, and derived attributes, are determined in the standard action in which the bomb is created and thrown.
The whole point is rendered moot by the simple fact that a strength mutagen is generally a waste of time. Dex or con are much more useful. Once you're high enough level to take the discoveries that let the mutagen affect more than one stat you should have enough magic going that taking a -2 to int should affect more than just the single point of lost extra bomb damage.
Maybe I was just asking this question to myself because my alchemist's strenght is almost as good as our barbarian's. He didn't like it when my strenght rose to 22 after I used a mutagen before drinking an Enlarge Person extract, dealing more damage than he did while having a ten feet reach and a better AC (I took feats to use medium armor) at level 1.
Maybe I was just asking this question to myself because my alchemist's strenght is almost as good as our barbarian's. He didn't like it when my strenght rose to 22 after I used a mutagen before drinking an Enlarge Person extract, dealing more damage than he did while having a ten feet reach and a better AC (I took feats to use medium armor) at level 1.
of course, you only get 1+int mod at first level for bombs, whereas he has 4+con rounds of rage, plus your mutagen (dex) makes your will save worse, whereas his rage makes his better.
as for the STR mutagen being a waste of time: only if you're ranged, I like my alchemists to be brutal monsters that melee everything, so the STR/CON ones are my go to choices for Mutagens.
I only bomb when something is too far away or up a hill or cause I want to get back at the -insert random evil PC here-
mutagen makes alchemist a VERY good dip class, given that it´s a completely new bonus type that stacks with everything. i feel it could perhaps have been toned down a bit for the 1st 1-3 levels just for that reason.
I took the feral mutagen discovery with my alchemist. With 4 rounds of preparation I was able to have +6 to my AC and +10 to my strength. Enlarge person, bull's strength, shield, and the mutagen all add up to a monstrous character.
I have seen a couple melee alchemists so far. They are formidable, but overall not significantly better than other classes. Barbarian-Alchemists can be really impressive.
+so many 1s
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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mutagen makes alchemist a VERY good dip class, given that it´s a completely new bonus type that stacks with everything. i feel it could perhaps have been toned down a bit for the 1st 1-3 levels just for that reason.
Completely new bonus type?
Maybe new to Ability scores, but alchemy bonuses have been a part of 3rd edition from the very beginning. They're just very rare.
For an example, check out 'antitoxin' in the equipment section of the Core Rulebook.
Very true...
Funnily it´s very similar to the whole confusion over the Attack Action thing, when Paizo never changed that at all, it was always a distinct action in 3.x, the distinction simply never was leveraged for special attack types (e.g. Vital Strike) until PRPG (AFAIK, and apparently as far as most people knew).
