The link I misremember applies to displacement and mirror image.
Here is the deal.
Mirror image only works if you can see it because the spell says so. General trumps specific so the noise issue is a non factor.
With your eyes closed you only have to deal with concealment, but you don't get to just use a free action to close your eyes to circumvent a spell. <---If the spell was that easy to circumvent it wouldn't even be worth having in the book. When you close your eyes they stay closed.
Combat is ongoing in the game. Because we in real life take turn we sometime forget the characters actions never really stop. When you close your eyes they stay closed for the entire six seconds of your attack which leads all the way up to your next turn at which time you can choose to keep them closed or open them just like you would for a gaze attack.
Well, I would like an official statement to the eye closing issue, still, not just a player opinion.
And as for Mirror Image being that easy to circumvent, etc... that's silly. The spell still is stupidly powerful for a second level spell, because it either gives you 1d4+x images, which is a much higher percent chance to miss than 50% OR it gives you a flat 50% miss chance, which is the equivalent of a level three spell.
The link I misremember applies to displacement and mirror image.
Here is the deal.
Mirror image only works if you can see it because the spell says so. General trumps specific so the noise issue is a non factor.
With your eyes closed you only have to deal with concealment, but you don't get to just use a free action to close your eyes to circumvent a spell. <---If the spell was that easy to circumvent it wouldn't even be worth having in the book. When you close your eyes they stay closed.
Combat is ongoing in the game. Because we in real life take turn we sometime forget the characters actions never really stop. When you close your eyes they stay closed for the entire six seconds of your attack which leads all the way up to your next turn at which time you can choose to keep them closed or open them just like you would for a gaze attack.
Well, I would like an official statement to the eye closing issue, still, not just a player opinion.
And as for Mirror Image being that easy to circumvent, etc... that's silly. The spell still is stupidly powerful for a second level spell, because it either gives you 1d4+x images, which is a much higher percent chance to miss than 50% OR it gives you a flat 50% miss chance, which is the equivalent of a level three spell.
Would you allow someone to circumvent a spell by closing their eyes? If you can do this then why would anyone take mirror image if you can automatically. It is not just an opinion. The guy attacking you does not stop attacking you when you attack someone else. We are using a turn based system so it just seems that way.
If a gaze attack does not allow you to close your eyes and open them as a free action then how can any other affect. Are you saying that being attacked by a gaze improves your action economy?edit:I am not seeing the entry in the gaze section that I thought was there.
Mirror image only works if you can see it because the spell says so. General trumps specific so the noise issue is a non factor.
My contention is that the attacker already saw it. I might be swayed away from that given that it isn't mind-affecting, as magnuskn points out.
With your eyes closed you only have to deal with concealment, but you don't get to just use a free action to close your eyes to circumvent a spell. <---If the spell was that easy to circumvent it wouldn't even be worth having in the book. When you close your eyes they stay closed.Combat is ongoing in the game. Because we in real life take turn we sometime forget the characters actions never really stop. When you close your eyes they stay closed for the entire six seconds of your attack which leads all the way up to your next turn at which time you can choose to keep them closed or open them just like you would for a gaze attack.
I agree with this point. We do a bit of abstraction when we have turn-based action. We take 6 seconds, look at all the character acting inside that 6 seconds, and split them out. Thank the many various Gods that we don't try to do things more real-time.
However
Gaze (Su)
A gaze attack takes effect when foes look at the attacking creature’s eyes. The attack can have any sort of effect; petrification, death, and charm are common. The typical range is 30 feet. The type of saving throw for a gaze attack is usually a Will or Fortitude save (DC 10 + the 1/2 gazing creature’s racial HD + the gazing creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s text). A successful saving throw negates the effect. A monster’s gaze attack is described in abbreviated form in its description. Each opponent within range of a gaze attack must attempt a saving throw each round at the beginning of his or her turn in the initiative order. Opponents can avoid the need to make the saving throw by not looking at the creature, in one of two ways.
Averting Eyes: The opponent avoids looking at the creature’s face, instead looking at its body, watching its shadow, tracking it in a reflective surface, etc. Each round, the opponent has a 50% chance to avoid having to make a saving throw against the gaze attack. The creature with the gaze attack, however, gains concealment against that opponent.
Wearing a Blindfold: The foe cannot see the creature at all (also possible to achieve by turning one’s back on the creature or shutting one’s eyes) and does not have to make saving throws against the gaze. However, the creature with the gaze attack gains total concealment against the opponent.
A creature with a gaze attack can actively gaze as an attack action by choosing a target within range. That opponent must attempt a saving throw but can try to avoid this as described above. Thus, it is possible for an opponent to save against a creature’s gaze twice during the same round, once before the opponent’s action and once during the creature’s turn.
Doesn't this suggest that a character could shut their eyes in response to a gaze attack (which would them have them 'blind' until their turn comes up)? They could then decide if they wanted to keep their eyes shut to avoid another save, or open them to gain the benefit of sight?
BTW:-Slightly ninja'd, but not bothering to rewrite, since my question still stands
Would you allow someone to circumvent a spell by closing their eyes? If you can do this then why would anyone take mirror image if you can automatically. It is not just an opinion. The guy attacking you does not stop attacking you when you attack someone else. We are using a turn based system so it just seems that way.
You got to explain to me why one would not take Mirror Image. Okay, so if the opponent does not close his eyes, it works as advertised, which is a much higher miss chance with a limitation, due to the images expiring upon being hit.
If the opponent closes his eyes, the spell suddenly turns into a THIRD LEVEL SPELL, named Displacement. Oh, and you don't lose images if he misses. How is that bad for the spell? And savvy people can ready an action to catch the eye-closing person flat-footed, too. Just saying.
If a gaze attack does not allow you to close your eyes and open them as a free action then how can any other affect. Are you saying that being attacked by a gaze improves your action economy?
How does a gaze attack not allow that? If you keep the eyes closed the entire time, you act as if you are using a blindfold. If you open them, you are exposed to the gaze attack. Easy.
Would you allow someone to circumvent a spell by closing their eyes? If you can do this then why would anyone take mirror image if you can automatically. It is not just an opinion. The guy attacking you does not stop attacking you when you attack someone else. We are using a turn based system so it just seems that way.You got to explain to me why one would not take Mirror Image. Okay, so if the opponent does not close his eyes, it works as advertised, which is a much higher miss chance with a limitation, due to the images expiring upon being hit.
If the opponent closes his eyes, the spell suddenly turns into a THIRD LEVEL SPELL, named Displacement. Oh, and you don't lose images if he misses. How is that bad for the spell? And savvy people can ready an action to catch the eye-closing person flat-footed, too. Just saying.
If a gaze attack does not allow you to close your eyes and open them as a free action then how can any other affect. Are you saying that being attacked by a gaze improves your action economy?How does a gaze attack not allow that? If you keep the eyes closed the entire time, you act as if you are using a blindfold. If you open them, you are exposed to the gaze attack. Easy.
I do think mirror image is worth a 3rd level slot, but what it is worth and how it works do not matter for the purpose of what the rules are. As for the gaze statement I misremembered it. I did see a statement that you can't close yours eyes for only the duration of the attack somewhere. I can't seem to find the source of the information though.
If the attacker has gotten to the caster then he has mostly likely already bypassed those people who are readying actions, and they have no way to know if he will close his eyes or not anyway. Another point is that taking one attack against a blinded foe is worse than taking many attacks against a non-blinded one so even if they ready actions he is still better off.
I would not take mirror image if you can close your eyes just to bypass it. Most of the times casters have crap AC so you or your buddy takes a round to drop the images, and the next round the wizard's defense is gone unless he mirror image, and displacement up, but that is another story.
I think it makes sense to allow the "shutting your eyes" trick to work. Not that my opinion will convince anyone... just tossing in my support.
It's win-win for the caster of the spell - except in the instance that the attacker has the blindfight tree or some other sense capable of discerning the target's location with their eyes closed. And in both of these situations, said character has paid for the right to try this tactic.
As for how long the person is required to keep their eyes closed... I think it stands to reason that they could open them again after their attacks are through and not suffer defensive penalties.
As stated before, if the opposing team is paying attention at all, they will ready some attacks to shut this tactic down once the archer tries it the second time. i know i'd quit closing my eyes in combat if each time I did it someone stabbed me in the kidney.
i think it would work EXCEPT for that im not gonna let something as easy as "shutting your eyes" bypass a 2nd level spell or whatever it is. I would say that since the images make sounds, you have a 50% miss chance to miss the target, and if you miss the 50% you dont take an image. if you do make it, you make your attack as normal and have a chance of hitting one of the images as well as the caster.
you are say "im gonna shut my eyes and remember where the caster was for my shot." heres the problem, the last time you saw the caster, there was like 8 of him in the square. your not targeting the square, if you were, itd be ac like 5 and youd hit it, for however much damage TO THE SQUARE, not the guy standing in it. the wizard could be anywhere in that square. thats how im gonna houserule it, yall do what you want.
I would not take mirror image if you can close your eyes just to bypass it. Most of the times casters have crap AC so you or your buddy takes a round to drop the images, and the next round the wizard's defense is gone unless he mirror image, and displacement up, but that is another story.
I still think Mirror Image is much superior to Displacement, due to a variety of factors. First off, you don't have the luxury of limitless pre-buffing in most situations I have encountered in the Paizo AP's. Meaning that you can get at most one or two defense spells up if you still want to contribute to the fight at hand.
In that case Mirror Image is a great spell, because of several factors.
1.) It is a second level spell, which in some cases can also act similarly to Displacement ( when someone closes his eyes ). This leaves you with more third levels spells going forward.
2.) In case the opponent does not close his eyes, it stacks with Displacement, giving you another 50% miss chance to the already existing Mirror Image effect.
3.) It also stacks with Blink ( as does Displacement ), for a really incredibly high chance of not being hit by melee.
4.) To repeat, because it is so important: It is a second level spell. One which on occasion works as a third level spell and is just as effective at high levels than at the low ones.
i think it would work EXCEPT for that im not gonna let something as easy as "shutting your eyes" bypass a 2nd level spell or whatever it is. I would say that since the images make sounds, you have a 50% miss chance to miss the target, and if you miss the 50% you dont take an image. if you do make it, you make your attack as normal and have a chance of hitting one of the images as well as the caster.
you are say "im gonna shut my eyes and remember where the caster was for my shot." heres the problem, the last time you saw the caster, there was like 8 of him in the square. your not targeting the square, if you were, itd be ac like 5 and youd hit it, for however much damage TO THE SQUARE, not the guy standing in it. the wizard could be anywhere in that square. thats how im gonna houserule it, yall do what you want.
Sure, houserule like you want, but ask yourself this: Do Wizards really need even more help to screw over melee and ranged physical characters?
I think it makes sense to allow the "shutting your eyes" trick to work. Not that my opinion will convince anyone... just tossing in my support.
It's win-win for the caster of the spell - except in the instance that the attacker has the blindfight tree or some other sense capable of discerning the target's location with their eyes closed. And in both of these situations, said character has paid for the right to try this tactic.
As for how long the person is required to keep their eyes closed... I think it stands to reason that they could open them again after their attacks are through and not suffer defensive penalties.
As stated before, if the opposing team is paying attention at all, they will ready some attacks to shut this tactic down once the archer tries it the second time. i know i'd quit closing my eyes in combat if each time I did it someone stabbed me in the kidney.
If an archer is surrounded by melee types I doubt the wizard is going to be the first thing on his mind. In any even, like I said before, taking one attack from a readied action is a lot better for the defender than taking full round attacks so win-win ratio just got bigger.
Primarily on the basis of the Gaze Attack description, I've always ruled that "making yourself blind" is a declaration you can make at the beginning of your action that lasts until your next action.
That provides balance for the decision to strategically close your eyes -- you can do it if you need to, but absent Blind Fighting or other abilities, it's a risky tactic.
If an archer is surrounded by melee types I doubt the wizard is going to be the first thing on his mind. In any even, like I said before, taking one attack from a readied action is a lot better for the defender than taking full round attacks so win-win ratio just got bigger.
Agreed, but if i'm the Wizard's mook or meatshield (or whatever you wanna call it) and I have half a brain, a straight attack might not be what I do. Good luck making those shots after I've tripped you. Or grappled you, or bull-rushed you so you don't have LOS to eh wizard anymore.
There are a lot of options that open up to the opportunistic person looking to screw over the archer with his eyes shut.
And even if I miss, adn he gets his attacks off, he still has a 50% chance of missing the mage! (again, barrign a heavy investment into some way of denying full concealment).
If an archer is surrounded by melee types I doubt the wizard is going to be the first thing on his mind. In any even, like I said before, taking one attack from a readied action is a lot better for the defender than taking full round attacks so win-win ratio just got bigger.Agreed, but if i'm the Wizard's mook or meatshield (or whatever you wanna call it) and I have half a brain, a straight attack might not be what I do. Good luck making those shots after I've tripped you. Or grappled you, or bull-rushed you so you don't have LOS to eh wizard anymore.
There are a lot of options that open up to the opportunistic person looking to screw over the archer with his eyes shut.
And even if I miss, adn he gets his attacks off, he still has a 50% chance of missing the mage! (again, barrign a heavy investment into some way of denying full concealment).
I think the archer is better off using his attacks to drop those images. Unless he rolls a one he should have all of the images dropped in 2 rounds, and the other damage dealer, assuming there is one can help with that also.
Archers should play like casters, and stay away from melee types whenever possible, or switch to a melee weapon kill the closest threat, and then go back to the caster.
I am assuming the archer won't be firing with the bodyguard that close to him.
Ok, as I see it, there's three issues here.
1) If you are blinded for any reason (including closing your eyes), do you have a chance of hitting an image, or does it negate the existence of the images?
2) Does the answer to #1 depend on having seen the images in the first place?
3) Can you close your eyes just for the attack, then re-open them?
On #1: The spell specifically states "An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect (although the normal miss chances still apply)." So if you can't see the images, the spell has no effect.
On #2: I will emphasize the "has no effect" clause. If I turn myself invisible after casting mirror image, I still have the images - they're just invisible too. But attacks against me don't affect the images, because the spell has no effect. Likewise, if my attacker can't see the images for any reason, the spell has no effect. Doesn't matter if they've seen me yet or not. It doesn't say "if your attacker hasn't seen you, they are unaffected". It doesn't say "if your attacker has seen you, they remain subject to attacking one of your images." It doesn't even not say anything about it at all. It specifically says "If ... the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect".
On #3: I don't have an answer for this that I can back up with rules, although the GM in me is screaming "Of course you can't!" So I'll just ask the people who are saying that closing and opening your eyes is a free action because it makes sense that way: Why can't you close and open them on other people's turns? Free actions can specifically only be taken on your turn (speaking is an exception).
Edit: In my games, I play exactly as AvalonXQ does. Do the rules support it? I don't know. Does game balance support it? Yes.
If the opponent closes his eyes, the spell suddenly turns into a THIRD LEVEL SPELL, named Displacement. Oh, and you don't lose images if he misses. How is that bad for the spell? And savvy people can ready an action to catch the eye-closing person flat-footed, too. Just saying.
What you are describing as the result of an attacker closing his eyes is the "becoming Displacement". This occurs whether or not the caster had cast Mirror Image, or anything else. The spell doesn't "become Displacement".
The attacker closing his eyes has no effect on the spell that the caster just cast.
What it does have, it an effect on his ability to hit the caster.
I'm not using this as prima facie evidence for my argument, but the attackers ability to close his eyes holds no bearing on the balance of the spell.
In my opinion the real question is how interaction works with the illusions. Also what precisely is going on when you attack a "square" with an opponent in it.
If the opponent closes his eyes, the spell suddenly turns into a THIRD LEVEL SPELL, named Displacement. Oh, and you don't lose images if he misses. How is that bad for the spell? And savvy people can ready an action to catch the eye-closing person flat-footed, too. Just saying.
What you are describing as the result of an attacker closing his eyes is the "becoming Displacement". This occurs whether or not the caster had cast Mirror Image, or anything else. The spell doesn't "become Displacement".
The attacker closing his eyes has no effect on the spell that the caster just cast.
What it does have, it an effect on his ability to hit the caster.
I'm not using this as prima facie evidence for my argument, but the attackers ability to close his eyes holds no bearing on the balance of the spell.In my opinion the real question is how interaction works with the illusions. Also what precisely is going on when you attack a "square" with an opponent in it.
Most illusions affect all of your senses, but mirror images specifically requires you to be able to see it. That is why closing your eyes means you only have to worry about the 50% miss chance. People want to compare it to displacement, but displacement stays until it runs out. If the party focuses fire on the caster mirror image can be dropped in one or two rounds. By party I mean 2 party members most of the time.
If the opponent closes his eyes, the spell suddenly turns into a THIRD LEVEL SPELL, named Displacement. Oh, and you don't lose images if he misses. How is that bad for the spell? And savvy people can ready an action to catch the eye-closing person flat-footed, too. Just saying.
What you are describing as the result of an attacker closing his eyes is the "becoming Displacement". This occurs whether or not the caster had cast Mirror Image, or anything else. The spell doesn't "become Displacement".
The attacker closing his eyes has no effect on the spell that the caster just cast.
What it does have, it an effect on his ability to hit the caster.
I'm not using this as prima facie evidence for my argument, but the attackers ability to close his eyes holds no bearing on the balance of the spell.In my opinion the real question is how interaction works with the illusions. Also what precisely is going on when you attack a "square" with an opponent in it.
Yes, actually it "becomes Displacement". Because, hey, why would the attacker otherwise have closed his eyes? Because you had Mirror Images running!
I think the archer is better off using his attacks to drop those images. Unless he rolls a one he should have all of the images dropped in 2 rounds, and the other damage dealer, assuming there is one can help with that also.
Archers should play like casters, and stay away from melee types whenever possible, or switch to a melee weapon kill the closest threat, and then go back to the caster.
I am assuming the archer won't be firing with the bodyguard that close to him.
Well, that's great, but you're talkign about your preferred tactic... not what is allowed/disallowed by RAW/RAI. I think the archer taking full-rounds to take care of ht eimages is a solid plan.
I think it's a great, creative way to handle the situation, though, for the archer to close his eyes for his shots, and I believe its with in both the letter and the spirit of teh rules.
** spoiler omitted **
LOL. Im just waiting for Kaze's turn, man. :D
Yes, actually it "becomes Displacement". Because, hey, why would the attacker otherwise have closed his eyes? Because you had Mirror Images running!
If the opponent closes his eyes, the spell suddenly turns into a THIRD LEVEL SPELL, named Displacement. Oh, and you don't lose images if he misses. How is that bad for the spell? And savvy people can ready an action to catch the eye-closing person flat-footed, too. Just saying.
What you are describing as the result of an attacker closing his eyes is the "becoming Displacement". This occurs whether or not the caster had cast Mirror Image, or anything else. The spell doesn't "become Displacement".
The attacker closing his eyes has no effect on the spell that the caster just cast.
What it does have, it an effect on his ability to hit the caster.
I'm not using this as prima facie evidence for my argument, but the attackers ability to close his eyes holds no bearing on the balance of the spell.In my opinion the real question is how interaction works with the illusions. Also what precisely is going on when you attack a "square" with an opponent in it.
No it doesn't. Closing your eyes causes you to lose dex, Displacement doesn't. Mirror image can also be gotten rid of without dispel magic. You can come close to a displaced caster's AC all day long(well at least until the spell runs out), but he will still be displaced. Mirror images will go away.
One spell is a constant 50%. The other one starts higher can be sent away. How the opponent is willing to attack you, or how many people are attacking determines how useful each spell is. If it is one person I would go with the images. If it is multiple people I would do with displacement.
Ok, as I see it, there's three issues here.
1) If you are blinded for any reason (including closing your eyes), do you have a chance of hitting an image, or does it negate the existence of the images?
2) Does the answer to #1 depend on having seen the images in the first place?
3) Can you close your eyes just for the attack, then re-open them?
On #1: The spell specifically states "An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect (although the normal miss chances still apply)." So if you can't see the images, the spell has no effect.
On #2: I will emphasize the "has no effect" clause. If I turn myself invisible after casting mirror image, I still have the images - they're just invisible too. But attacks against me don't affect the images, because the spell has no effect. Likewise, if my attacker can't see the images for any reason, the spell has no effect. Doesn't matter if they've seen me yet or not. It doesn't say "if your attacker hasn't seen you, they are unaffected". It doesn't say "if your attacker has seen you, they remain subject to attacking one of your images." It doesn't even not say anything about it at all. It specifically says "If ... the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect".
On #3: I don't have an answer for this that I can back up with rules, although the GM in me is screaming "Of course you can't!" So I'll just ask the people who are saying that closing and opening your eyes is a free action because it makes sense that way: Why can't you close and open them on other people's turns? Free actions can specifically only be taken on your turn (speaking is an exception).
Edit: In my games, I play exactly as AvalonXQ does. Do the rules support it? I don't know. Does game balance support it? Yes.
You have some good points, I just can't agree that the usage "is blind" is precise enough. There's so many instances where the word choice isn't enough to convey the intentions.
I'm not saying I would have a complaint if this is the way it was ruled in a game. This is really not a huge deal in the long run of a game (however it could have had a big impact on that playtest that spurred the question in the first place)
No it doesn't. Closing your eyes causes you to lose dex, Displacement doesn't. Mirror image can also be gotten rid of without dispel magic. You can come close to a displaced caster's AC all day long(well at least until the spell runs out), but he will still be displaced. Mirror images will go away.
One spell is a constant 50%. The other one starts higher can be sent away. How the opponent is willing to attack you, or how many people are attacking determines how useful each spell is. If it is one person I would go with the images. If it is multiple people I would do with displacement.
So, to summarize:
a.) Mirror Image, as per its normal use, will give you a much higher chance that you are going to be missed than Displacement, with the drawback that your defense is going to be whittled away after a while. Which, at low levels, can take a lot of time, because if you are getting attacked by multiple people in melee as a caster, something already went horribly, horribly wrong.
b.) If an opponent wants to forego the high miss chance, he can close his eyes, effectively still granting you the Displacement effect ( full concealment ), while being unable to hit your mirror images ( which keeps their number up ) and effectively making himself flat-footed.
HOW IS THAT BAD?
As I play it, you can still hit the mirror images if you choose to blind yourself, if you overcome the concealment miss chance and miss the wizard within 5.
HOW IS THAT BAD?
It becomes bad when you are confronting something with blindsight... ^^
No images AND no concealment... And it isn't even flat-footed...
Lol. Yes, let's just hope this opponent with blindsight doesn't have a high enough Intelligence to figure out this little trick.
And if you're fighting a dragon... well... it's a frickin' dragon.
HOW IS THAT BAD?It becomes bad when you are confronting something with blindsight... ^^
No images AND no concealment... And it isn't even flat-footed...
Blindsight, Tremorsense, Lifesense, etc... of course there are many ways around it in the end, but Mirror Image ain't the only defense a good Wizard is rocking. :) Anyway, I guess this thread has gone enough off the rails. Still got to check out 300 threads for my upcoming Kingmaker campaign <sigh>
No it doesn't. Closing your eyes causes you to lose dex, Displacement doesn't. Mirror image can also be gotten rid of without dispel magic. You can come close to a displaced caster's AC all day long(well at least until the spell runs out), but he will still be displaced. Mirror images will go away.
One spell is a constant 50%. The other one starts higher can be sent away. How the opponent is willing to attack you, or how many people are attacking determines how useful each spell is. If it is one person I would go with the images. If it is multiple people I would do with displacement.So, to summarize:
a.) Mirror Image, as per its normal use, will give you a much higher chance that you are going to be missed than Displacement, with the drawback that your defense is going to be whittled away after a while. Which, at low levels, can take a lot of time, because if you are getting attacked by multiple people in melee as a caster, something already went horribly, horribly wrong.
b.) If an opponent wants to forego the high miss chance, he can close his eyes, effectively still granting you the Displacement effect ( full concealment ), while being unable to hit your mirror images ( which keeps their number up ) and effectively making himself flat-footed.HOW IS THAT BAD?
How is what bad?
How is what bad?
No it doesn't. Closing your eyes causes you to lose dex, Displacement doesn't. Mirror image can also be gotten rid of without dispel magic. You can come close to a displaced caster's AC all day long(well at least until the spell runs out), but he will still be displaced. Mirror images will go away.
One spell is a constant 50%. The other one starts higher can be sent away. How the opponent is willing to attack you, or how many people are attacking determines how useful each spell is. If it is one person I would go with the images. If it is multiple people I would do with displacement.So, to summarize:
a.) Mirror Image, as per its normal use, will give you a much higher chance that you are going to be missed than Displacement, with the drawback that your defense is going to be whittled away after a while. Which, at low levels, can take a lot of time, because if you are getting attacked by multiple people in melee as a caster, something already went horribly, horribly wrong.
b.) If an opponent wants to forego the high miss chance, he can close his eyes, effectively still granting you the Displacement effect ( full concealment ), while being unable to hit your mirror images ( which keeps their number up ) and effectively making himself flat-footed.HOW IS THAT BAD?
Yeah, okay. I am not going to re-explain our entire conversation.
No it doesn't. Closing your eyes causes you to lose dex, Displacement doesn't. Mirror image can also be gotten rid of without dispel magic. You can come close to a displaced caster's AC all day long(well at least until the spell runs out), but he will still be displaced. Mirror images will go away.
One spell is a constant 50%. The other one starts higher can be sent away. How the opponent is willing to attack you, or how many people are attacking determines how useful each spell is. If it is one person I would go with the images. If it is multiple people I would do with displacement.So, to summarize:
a.) Mirror Image, as per its normal use, will give you a much higher chance that you are going to be missed than Displacement, with the drawback that your defense is going to be whittled away after a while. Which, at low levels, can take a lot of time, because if you are getting attacked by multiple people in melee as a caster, something already went horribly, horribly wrong.
b.) If an opponent wants to forego the high miss chance, he can close his eyes, effectively still granting you the Displacement effect ( full concealment ), while being unable to hit your mirror images ( which keeps their number up ) and effectively making himself flat-footed.HOW IS THAT BAD?
I thought the question was on the ruling of the interaction, not the soundness of the tactic.
Sure, houserule like you want, but ask yourself this: Do Wizards really need even more help to screw over melee and ranged physical characters?i think it would work EXCEPT for that im not gonna let something as easy as "shutting your eyes" bypass a 2nd level spell or whatever it is. I would say that since the images make sounds, you have a 50% miss chance to miss the target, and if you miss the 50% you dont take an image. if you do make it, you make your attack as normal and have a chance of hitting one of the images as well as the caster.
you are say "im gonna shut my eyes and remember where the caster was for my shot." heres the problem, the last time you saw the caster, there was like 8 of him in the square. your not targeting the square, if you were, itd be ac like 5 and youd hit it, for however much damage TO THE SQUARE, not the guy standing in it. the wizard could be anywhere in that square. thats how im gonna houserule it, yall do what you want.
no they dont, because THEY DONT! its called balance. and as i have read the classes and played for some time i see each class as balanced, not as "spellcasters make melee dumb" argument.
How is what bad?
No it doesn't. Closing your eyes causes you to lose dex, Displacement doesn't. Mirror image can also be gotten rid of without dispel magic. You can come close to a displaced caster's AC all day long(well at least until the spell runs out), but he will still be displaced. Mirror images will go away.
One spell is a constant 50%. The other one starts higher can be sent away. How the opponent is willing to attack you, or how many people are attacking determines how useful each spell is. If it is one person I would go with the images. If it is multiple people I would do with displacement.So, to summarize:
a.) Mirror Image, as per its normal use, will give you a much higher chance that you are going to be missed than Displacement, with the drawback that your defense is going to be whittled away after a while. Which, at low levels, can take a lot of time, because if you are getting attacked by multiple people in melee as a caster, something already went horribly, horribly wrong.
b.) If an opponent wants to forego the high miss chance, he can close his eyes, effectively still granting you the Displacement effect ( full concealment ), while being unable to hit your mirror images ( which keeps their number up ) and effectively making himself flat-footed.HOW IS THAT BAD?
Yeah, okay. I am not going to re-explain our entire conversation.
I don't which part of the conversation you were talking about.
If you mean a caster should be able to stay out of melee then you have a point, but I have killed enough casters to know that should and is are not the same thing.As far as the closing your eyes things I think that is a bad tactic. I would rather just get rid of the spell. That constant 50% surpasses the spell that gets whittled down eventually.
Agreed. The tactic is not a great one. But, if it works as magnuskn suspects, it has its place.
Particularly in the instance that brought the issue up. The ninja used Shadow whatever (mirror image clone) and the gunslinger wanted to kill him dead quick-like or else be sliced to smithereens. Pretty much his only chance was to take the 50% miss chance, and hope the ninja went down quick. That's exactly what happened.
Use of the tactic means you both have the ability and need to frontload a lot of damage in as short a time as possible, enough so that the 50% miss chance is a valid option.
So let's say that a ranged attacker only takes the 50% miss chance from closing his eyes versus the mirror imaged caster.
Because the spell description has this line "An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect (although the normal miss chances still apply)" you also say that the mirror images can not be destroyed by the ranged attacker.
The ranger can miss the caster but still "hit" a mirror image from the perception of the ranger's allies. Would that mirror image stay around?
By RAW, only for the ranger. Or until the spell expires.
Here's an even more fun question.
Let's say a wizard casts this, and the big ugly fighter comes along and succeeds in grappling him. Everyone can plainly see which image has a Fighter-Blanket, so do they get a Will save chance then? Or is that direct proof of illusion, and do they all poof? Or does the fighter also get mirrored, and produce 4+ very unhappy wizard/fighter piles?
Throw some water on the wizard's square. Sure all the illusions will look wet, but only one will physically stop the water.Here's an even more fun question.
Let's say a wizard casts this, and the big ugly fighter comes along and succeeds in grappling him. Everyone can plainly see which image has a Fighter-Blanket, so do they get a Will save chance then? Or is that direct proof of illusion, and do they all poof? Or does the fighter also get mirrored, and produce 4+ very unhappy wizard/fighter piles?
- and as soon as you do that the mirror images all shuffle around and you loose track of them, as part of the spell.
Or is that direct proof of illusion, and do they all poof? Or does the fighter also get mirrored, and produce 4+ very unhappy wizard/fighter piles?
-you have 1 fighter doing oddly well against 5 wizards.
Here's an even more fun question.
Let's say a wizard casts this, and the big ugly fighter comes along and succeeds in grappling him. Everyone can plainly see which image has a Fighter-Blanket, so do they get a Will save chance then? Or is that direct proof of illusion, and do they all poof? Or does the fighter also get mirrored, and produce 4+ very unhappy wizard/fighter piles?
I've said this on other threads:
Mirror image is not Will disbelief. The spell is obviously an illusion; like Blur, Displacement, and even Invisibility, knowing that there's an illusion involved doesn't negate the effectiveness of the spell.
Or is that direct proof of illusion, and do they all poof? Or does the fighter also get mirrored, and produce 4+ very unhappy wizard/fighter piles?-you have 1 fighter doing oddly well against 5 wizards.
But seriously though, 5 wizard standing in a 5 foot area, and a fighter right next to all of them, with one of them in a half nelson. The other 4 will be bent over backwards with one arm held up at an odd angle. I think we have to assume that the fighter can't be considered an 'attended item', so his body doesn't get replicated in the illusion.
Does getting grappled negate this spell? I could see getting away with a net, since it's just an item that could be repeated in all the images.
I've said this on other threads:
Mirror image is not Will disbelief. The spell is obviously an illusion; like Blur, Displacement, and even Invisibility, knowing that there's an illusion involved doesn't negate the effectiveness of the spell.
Oddly this is the only spell I see that is a figment and has no will save.
I could see this as being a viable interpretation. The only reason I would question it is because of the language in the spell that makes the copies disappear (attack hits nothing = direct proof). But as this is the only figment spell with no save, maybe it's supposed to be different.
If that's the case, then the images are like bubbles, touch it with something and it immediately pops. Which means that an attacker with his eyes closed would still have images disappear for him if they were attacked by someone else.
Oddly this is the only spell I see that is a figment and has no will save.
I've said this on other threads:
Mirror image is not Will disbelief. The spell is obviously an illusion; like Blur, Displacement, and even Invisibility, knowing that there's an illusion involved doesn't negate the effectiveness of the spell.
That's because the spell really acts more like a glamor than a figment, since in its revised form all the figments are located in your own square.
Back to the original question.
If the Mage has mirror image up and the archer wants to close his eyes and try to hit him, then he will need to know which square the enemy is in the first place. Mirror Image is moot when your eyes are closed.
I would say, set a perception check to predict the square that the spellcaster is in. If you fail, you miss by shooting in the wrong place. If for any reason it matters where you shoot, use the grenade scatter chart.
Even if you guess the right square, the spellcaster still has 100% concealment because the archer's eyes are closed. Roll to hit using the concealment modifiers at this point.
I would say, set a perception check to predict the square that the spellcaster is in. If you fail, you miss by shooting in the wrong place. If for any reason it matters where you shoot, use the grenade scatter chart.
If the archer has already percepted the opponent at the beginning of his turn, that becomes moot.
While mirror image conceals the real target within the 5 foot square, displacement will put you off on the actual square you need to work with. If you're just dealing with mirror image, you at least have a shot of knowing what square you're aiming for when firing blindly. With displacement, you've got the further complication of being 5 foot off but not neccessarily sure where.
100% wrong on Displacement. This is Pathfinder, not 3.5. Read the rules:
The subject of this spell appears to be about 2 feet away from its true location. The creature benefits from a 50% miss chance as if it had total concealment. Unlike actual total concealment, displacement does not prevent enemies from targeting the creature normally. True seeing reveals its true location and negates the miss chance.
Same square for targetting purposes.
But seriously though, 5 wizard standing in a 5 foot area, and a fighter right next to all of them, with one of them in a half nelson. The other 4 will be bent over backwards with one arm held up at an odd angle. I think we have to assume that the fighter can't be considered an 'attended item', so his body doesn't get replicated in the illusion.
While a full nelson is one interpretation of a grapple its not the only one. There;s also bear hugs (where you have 5 heads and chests sticking out.. sure, they all join at the waist, but that's where your friends arms are so you can't stab there) A pin (where you get one set of head and feet pointing out in all directions) Or just grabbing both arms and crossing them.
Does getting grappled negate this spell? I could see getting away with a net, since it's just an item that could be repeated in all the images.
It effectively negates if for the grappler but not for everyone else. Its magic, don't think too hard about it, just have everyone concentrate fire on the wizard and drop the images pronto.
For what it's worth here is how I would rule it:
1) Wizard casts Mirror Image
2) Archer realizes, "Ah Dang..." and closes his eyes
2a) Note that the Archer has *already* seen the mirrors and cannot normally differentiate between them
3) Archer rolls to hit
4) Archer rolls 50/50 Miss (due to his lack of sight)
5) Archer rolls 1/8 due to the 2a.
In short, his senses are already confused by the noise and visualiztion of many tagets.
If you want to avoid this mess, get a True Seeing effect.
GNOME
Does anyone remember a 2d ed Forgotten Realms spell, Scatterspray that did some minor amount of damage but each point of damage was considered to be a single, seperate attack? It was essentially a Stoneskin/Mirror Image stripper. (Back in the day, Stoneskin blocked X number of attacks, regardless of source, or amount of damage.)
GNOME
For what it's worth here is how I would rule it:
1) Wizard casts Mirror Image
2) Archer realizes, "Ah Dang..." and closes his eyes
2a) Note that the Archer has *already* seen the mirrors and cannot normally differentiate between them
3) Archer rolls to hit
4) Archer rolls 50/50 Miss (due to his lack of sight)
5) Archer rolls 1/8 due to the 2a.In short, his senses are already confused by the noise and visualiztion of many tagets.
If you want to avoid this mess, get a True Seeing effect.
GNOME
Doesn't work that way, you attack into the square, which is where the 50% miss chance comes from. The images are all in the same square.
In fact the real issue is : what kind of action do you need to close your eyes and open them again...
Since there is no RAW for this it depend entirely on a DM call...
I, as a DM, will rule on a move action to do both on your turn...
Thus you could close your eyes at the begining of your turn, shoot (no full attack), and open them at the end of your turn...
If you want to keep your eyes closed all the time then I will rule a free action at the begining of your turn (so they stay closed minimum 'til the begining of your next round)...
And if you want to re-open them you can for free at the begining of your turn (same as above, minimum 'til your next round)...
So it's easier to touch the mage, but at the cost of a move action... Good balance for me...
For what it's worth here is how I would rule it:
1) Wizard casts Mirror Image
2) Archer realizes, "Ah Dang..." and closes his eyes
2a) Note that the Archer has *already* seen the mirrors and cannot normally differentiate between them
3) Archer rolls to hit
4) Archer rolls 50/50 Miss (due to his lack of sight)
5) Archer rolls 1/8 due to the 2a.In short, his senses are already confused by the noise and visualiztion of many tagets.
If you want to avoid this mess, get a True Seeing effect.
GNOME
No, because you attack the square and a blind person is specifically immune to the spell