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I kind of get why Weapon Finesse decouples to-hit and damage bonuses. It allows dex-based classes like rogues to play to their primary abilities in melee (notice I didn't say "play to their strengths", haha) while keeping traditional strength-based fighters at the top of the heap.
I'm always waffling on my opinion of the mechanic, though: Sometimes I'm bugged by the fact that this makes dex-based melee characters more difficult to create. Sometimes I think it's fine.
I don't often stray outside the core rules for exotic feats and the like, so maybe someone can educate me: have there been splat book feats that tried using other stats for damage bonuses? Like maybe INT? (Seems natural to me, for doing precision damage) If anyone has any experience with something along those lines, I'd love to hear about it.
When designing a Dex-based fighter (as in, the actual Fighter class) do you think using finesse weapons by default make for a less powerful PC than a Strength based fighter?
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The only way weapon finesse works well (within the rules) is if your character is capable of doing bonus damage from another source.
Rogues can sort-of make finesse work because they can add sneak attack damage.
Archers with lower strength might use weapon finesse so their secondary weapon is somewhat effective (power attack, finesse, and that two handed elven sword do make a nice archer back up weapon). In general though unless you have some secondary source of damage finesse is a dead end.
I'm working on a dexterity based inquisitor who bumps damage using his bane and to a lesser extend judgements but I'm not sure how well that will work.
For straight fighters there are a few feats bobbing around that let you add dexterity damage, I think the dervish feat? But they require nothing in the off hand usually.
I kind of get why Weapon Finesse decouples to-hit and damage bonuses. It allows dex-based classes like rogues to play to their primary abilities in melee (notice I didn't say "play to their strengths", haha) while keeping traditional strength-based fighters at the top of the heap.
I'm always waffling on my opinion of the mechanic, though: Sometimes I'm bugged by the fact that this makes dex-based melee characters more difficult to create. Sometimes I think it's fine.
I don't often stray outside the core rules for exotic feats and the like, so maybe someone can educate me: have there been splat book feats that tried using other stats for damage bonuses? Like maybe INT? (Seems natural to me, for doing precision damage) If anyone has any experience with something along those lines, I'd love to hear about it.
When designing a Dex-based fighter (as in, the actual Fighter class) do you think using finesse weapons by default make for a less powerful PC than a Strength based fighter?
There was a d20 game called A Game of Thrones (based on the book by George R.R. Martin), that had feats for every stat to be used as the base to hit stat, besides CON. You also had to burn a feat so that STR added to, to hit. So there really wasn't the same emphasis on STR in that game. Of the four PCs I saw for that game high stats were in INT, DEX, STR, and CHA.
This is a continual bone of contention among amateur (and professional) game writers. I can totally understand your frustration with dexterity based fighter-types. "I want to make a fencer, but still deal enough damage to be considered a good fighter," is a common, and completely valid, desire.
Here's the problem:
Strength = Hit, Damage
Dexterity = Armor Class, Initiative
Constitution = Hit Points, Fortitude Save
Weapon Finesse makes this:
Strength = Damage
Dexterity = Armor Class, Initiative, Hit
Constitution = Hit Points, Fortitude Save
Weapon Finesse + [dex for damage feat] would make:
Strength =
Dexterity = Armor Class, Initiative, Hit, Damage
Constitution = Hit Points, Fortitude Save
So, dex becomes your super-attribute, and strength becomes a dump-stat. You could argue that carrying capacity is still based on strength, but that's not very important in a game with magical backpacks and mithral armor.
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If you are using old 3.5 material Races of the Wild has a martial prestige class; Champion of Corellon Larethian. At level 2 of the class you gain Elegant Strike which lets you use your Dex bonus to add to damage with melee. Albeit you have to be elf/half elf to take it, this is one of the only places I can see that you can go with a dex based fighter and take Weapon Finesse. It also has some nice dex based synergy abilities. Also if your DM will allow Book of Nine Swords you can make a nice dex based melee that can do bonus damage from maneuvers.
Shadow Blade Feat from 3.5 Tome of Battle has a feat that adds Dexterity to Damage.
I believe the old duelist class used INT for damage on finesse weapons. Honestly I'm very flexible as a DM and I will tend to allow feats that use ability scores other than DEX for damage. Although I agree with Blueluck's statement(with the exception of STR determining carrying capacity...LOL)
I feel like for most classes feats are precious nuggets of goodness, some of which are very powerful, and if they want to spend a valuable resource to use their DEX/INT/WIS for damage by taking a feat, well I will usually let em.
Also I remember there being a feat that let characters(maybe only monks?) use their WIS modifier for ranged damage.
I suppose the way I break it down is; I see no reason I shouldn't be able to use my DEX to aim better with a weapon, or use my INT/WIS to intuitively strike a weak point. This is of course without consideration for the balance that blueluck mentioned.
In the end Dnd/Pathfinder is in a big way about interpreting and adding rules as you and your group see fit. It's one of the main reasons I enjoy table top rpgs so much, if we don't like the way said mechanic works or we think that there ought to be a different/better way for a rule to work we can change it!
The other thing to consider as a GM is who is asking you. Is it a power-gamer who plans on min/maxing? He probably wants to make a broken character that will be the "best" and own everything evar. Or maybe it is an average player whose characters have been middling or even underpowered. The first pathfinder group I played with, weapon finesse as it is in the core book was free. In it's place was a feat that used dex to dmg with the same restrictions and in addition you had to be in light armour for it to apply. This worked out rather well and the paladin with his great-axe was still the highest damage.
Dervish Dance is the Dex-fighter's friend...unfortunately it has its own limitations (must be scimitar, which restricts the aesthetic choices, and can't be used for TWF or THF).
For inquisitors...Guided is yummy.
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I'm honestly less concerned with the question as a DM than I am as an armchair game designer. I rarely see a group with more than one single-classed fighter and people tend to gravitate towards either a high-strength bruiser with a great weapon or a High-Dex blender with two-weapon fighting, and I think that the core rules allow for a lot more creativity and variety than that.
Although maybe rather than saying that those choices are unimaginative, I should probably acknowledge that they are instead archetypal (by which I mean cultural archetypes rather than APG archetypes). Which is I suppose a good thing in a game where people are basically seeking to play with archetypes.
A player who recently had to leave my game did something that surprised me with the rules for fighters, which puzzled me in a good way: he built a shield fighter with a Spiked shield for bashing people with, and used two-weapon fighting feat with it and a light weapon - but it took me a few sessions to get that he was using the shield as his PRIMARY weapon, and he had a light weapon in his off hand. He of course took the relevant shield feats as well, making for an unusual and very effective build. We did jokingly discuss the idea of his switching over to using a buckler in his off-hand, but I nixed the idea of a "dual-shielding" fighter as straying into silly munchkin territory. For the record, his build was human, with bonuses spread out pretty evenly between Strength, Dex, and Con, with Int and Cha as dump stats.
I'm honestly less concerned with the question as a DM than I am as an armchair game designer. I rarely see a group with more than one single-classed fighter and people tend to gravitate towards either a high-strength bruiser with a great weapon or a High-Dex blender with two-weapon fighting, and I think that the core rules allow for a lot more creativity and variety than that.
Although maybe rather than saying that those choices are unimaginative, I should probably acknowledge that they are instead archetypal (by which I mean cultural archetypes rather than APG archetypes). Which is I suppose a good thing in a game where people are basically seeking to play with archetypes.
I agree.
THF (Conan) and TWF (Aragorn) are archetypes people want to play, and which are well supported by Pathfinder. I'd also add archery to that list (Archer). I was ecstatic when I started digging into the rules in a little more detail and discovered that W&S (Weapon & Shield or Crusader) was supported!
There are other archetypal builds people want to play, and I'd like to see a little more support for them in the rules:
- Two-Weapon fighting with medium weapons (Drizzt)
- One-hand weapon + free hand (Swashbuckler)
- Thrown weapons, especially daggers (Thrown)
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Dervish Dance is the Dex-fighter's friend...unfortunately it has its own limitations (must be scimitar, which restricts the aesthetic choices, and can't be used for TWF or THF).
True, there *are* significant limitations on Dervish Dance, but going Free-Hand Fighter into Duelist with it you can do pretty well for yourself. Sure, you have to survive until 2nd level to take Dervish Dance, but once you're there you're pretty much as good as you can be single-wielding a weapon. Elves are your best bet race-wise, and if you're going outside of the core seven, Tieflilngs and Sylph are also top choices.
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There are other archetypal builds people want to play, and I'd like to see a little more support for them in the rules:
- Two-Weapon fighting with medium weapons (Drizzt)
- One-hand weapon + free hand (Swashbuckler)
- Thrown weapons, especially daggers (Thrown)
I think single-wielding is pretty well supported between the Free-Hand Fighter and the Duelist. Similarly, the advantages given by the Two-Weapon Fighter archetype are about as easy as I want to see dual-wielding medium weapons get.
I am, however, completely with you on the thrown weapons thing. Particularly due to the fact that ALL you really need is a version of the Amulet of Mighty Fists for thrown weapons. Sure, an archetype to specialize in the combat style would be nice, but it is annoying that the concept is basically just *one* magic item from viability. I am really, really hoping a magic item like that pops up in either of the Ultimate books.
The only way weapon finesse works well (within the rules) is if your character is capable of doing bonus damage from another source.
Rogues can sort-of make finesse work because they can add sneak attack damage.
Archers with lower strength might use weapon finesse so their secondary weapon is somewhat effective (power attack, finesse, and that two handed elven sword do make a nice archer back up weapon). In general though unless you have some secondary source of damage finesse is a dead end.
I'm working on a dexterity based inquisitor who bumps damage using his bane and to a lesser extend judgements but I'm not sure how well that will work.
For straight fighters there are a few feats bobbing around that let you add dexterity damage, I think the dervish feat? But they require nothing in the off hand usually.
you can also use finesse for crit heavy TWF and CMB's that use finesse weapons.
with TWF using weapon with 18-20 threat range which you then extend to 15-20 with the number of attacks you get you should crit every round. couple that to crit feats that apply nasty effects you can be effective.
CMB finesse weapons can offer the same thing
Finesse can work for a DEX Monk if your using one of the varients that can apply additonal stuff to attacks. your shurikens will suck though.
In a nut shell STR > DEX if you want to do damage. If you want great AC, able to hit and apply conditions then DEX finesse can work
In general if you can swing at least a decent str on a dex-based TWF melee character you can keep up with the totally str based melee combatant, plus you gain ranged effectiveness and buffing your combat attribute also buffs your armor class. I tend to go for that sort of bargain, but either build is fine.
I've built and played a lot of TWF thrown weapon fighters. Not yet in PF because I've just started with PF, but in all other versions of D&D (including 4e). I've been able to build very effective hurlers who are also quite effective in melee without too much trouble, both rogue based and ranger based. Pathfinder's "star knife" looks to make that build even more effective than it was in 3.5 with daggers.
The other way to go with a DEX-based fighter is to focus on Critical Feats, both the Critical Focus tree AND Improved Critical -- No, you're not increasing your damage on every hit, but if, say, you're using a rapier (the iconic finesse weapon), and have both Improved Critical AND Critical Focus, you threaten a critical on 15-20, and are gaining +4 on your To Hit roll to confirm the crit. Start adding the other critical feats like blinding and bleeding, and you start not missing your STR bonus so much.
I've skimmed the posts and didn't see anything like this, so here's to hoping I'm not repeating anyone. Although you may not be able to deal as much damage in a single blow as a dex based fighter, that doesn't mean that a viable and effective dex based fighter isn't possible.
The most important thing for a dex fighter is to have a weapon with a maxed out crit range. That way even if a single strike is less powerful, they are still unloading damage routinely, and critically. The critical feats would obviously be good additions to that then.
I find that making a dex figter into a tank is the best route. Lighter armor that allows for a high max dex (mithral chain is usually a great option) as well as ranks in acrobatics for figting defensively can make for some pretty high and cheap AC, and you won't need to worry much about low touch AC, which can be the full plate fighter's bane. You also get better reflex saves, so those nasty maximized fireball traps are less deadly.
If you allow 3.5 feats, shield specialization, and active shield defense (I am 90% sure on the neame of the second one) give an ac bonus to a shield and allow you to continue threatening squares while holding that shield and using total defense. High dex, combat reflexes, and total defense that makes you still threaten? That is a wicked defensive fighter right there.
All that to say that really, it may not be the DPS that the normal str based fighter is, but a dex based fighter is a good option, if built and played with different expectations for how he is going to be effective. You're more likely to act as a shield for spell caster, or as a distraction for the rogue to spring-sneak-attack than you are to be the wild smashing crazy guy.
One thing I find that makes DEX-based builds more viable than they appear at first glance is that almost every class has a built in source of extra damage.
Rogues, of course, have sneak attack.
Fighters have Weapon Specialization and Training
Rangers have Favored Enemy
Paladins have Smite
Barbarians have Rage and Rage Powers
Bards have Inspire Courage and Buffs
Inquisitors have Bane and Judgement.
Alchemists have Mutagens and Extracts.
You won't be going to the DPR Olympics, but at all but the most optimized tables you will be able to contribute meaningfully.
I don't think Weapon Finesse is a dead end at all. Like any niche feat, it takes a creative mind to use it effectively, but that can be done well within the rules. You also have to define what you mean by "works well" or "effective."
One of my players (3.5) had a ranger of relatively good Strength, and high Dexterity, with Weapon Finesse, whose chosen combat form was two-weapon fighting. The WF feat boosted the attack of the off hand (shortsword), eventually making the bonus to hit with one of the off-hand attacks higher than with the primary hand.
Yes, the off-hand attack didn't do as much damage as the primary, and the primary did less than if the ranger were attacking with both hands on a single weapon, but to my mind, two solid, successful hits by a fighting class each round (with another one or two solid possibilities) makes for an effective character.
Also "Sargava; The Lost Colony" has a feat called "Piranha Strike".
You need Weapon Finesse and a +1 Bab, but it is essentially Power Attack for light weapons.
thats what i was going to suggest yestersay beofe my boss walked by lol.
something along the lines of:Presise attack- have it work like power attack but you take a neagative to your AC. that would balnce with the issue Blueluck described about dexterity being TOO good.
Also "Sargava; The Lost Colony" has a feat called "Piranha Strike".
You need Weapon Finesse and a +1 Bab, but it is essentially Power Attack for light weapons.thats what i was going to suggest yestersay beofe my boss walked by lol.
something along the lines of:Presise attack- have it work like power attack but you take a neagative to your AC. that would balnce with the issue Blueluck described about dexterity being TOO good.
IIRC the RPG Champions had an attack that sacrificed defense in order to increase either offense or damage or both. I think that's a great option for a finesse fighter. But in terms of the name, in keeping with the fencing-themed name of feats like Lunge and and the Duelist Special features Parry and Riposte, I'd call it Thrust.