Check this idea out:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/ultimateCombatPlaytest/gunslinger/givingUpOnGunslinger&page=2#52
Let me know what you ladies and gentlemen think. Especially you, ladies.
Enjoy! :)
As I noted in the previous thread, this isn't a bad idea. Resolving a single attack as multiple attacks to determine bonus damage wouldn't be terrible, from a mechanical sense. The only concern I would have immediately is that people will wonder why you can't do that with any other ranged weapon (it'd definitely help crossbows out a crap-ton), but at least it would be a hope for the gunslinger to function at 1 shot/round.
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As I noted in the previous thread, this isn't a bad idea. Resolving a single attack as multiple attacks to determine bonus damage wouldn't be terrible, from a mechanical sense. The only concern I would have immediately is that people will wonder why you can't do that with any other ranged weapon (it'd definitely help crossbows out a crap-ton), but at least it would be a hope for the gunslinger to function at 1 shot/round.Check this idea out:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/ultimateCombatPlaytest/gunslinger/givingUpOnGunslinger&page=2#52
Let me know what you ladies and gentlemen think. Especially you, ladies.
Enjoy! :)
Noble pickle-lady, the shoot once with multiple attacks should only be a gunslinger class feature I think. I hear you about the crossbows though... I hear you... but they are cheap simple weapons that do not require the mighty Exotic Firearms feat! :)
Nice houserule though... but limiting this to the gunslinger class only would be a nice reward for the otherwise useless firearms... (not sure if i'm still making sense... basically a simpleton who just takes the Exotic Feat is still only taking standard actions... a true GUNSLINGER really make that musket sing!!!! )
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...oh, and the multiple attack rolls with one shot dill pickle method also solves the problem of creating additional guns... the pickle method requires no fancy multiple barrel guns! :)
two pistols become actually interesting and balanced with the picklemaester way:
let's assume BAB 11 with Rapid Reload, two pistols
round one: 5foot step plus three attacks in one
round two: 5foot step plus three attacks in one
round three: reload two pistols with move action each and take a 5foot step
let's assume BAB 11 with Rapid Reload, musket
round one: 5foot step plus three attacks in one
round two: reload musket with standard and take a move action
It's balanced in a way as you're more mobile with the musket due to the move action! :)
You may have just saved the Gunslinger.
*gives you a crate of dill pickles*
I am a fan of beer-batter fried pickles myself.
Please, Paizo, please do this and keep the flintlocks.
*starts planning a pirates campaign*
Ok, so why cant you TWF with dill pickles in each hand, and triple shot with the right and double shot with the left (depending on how many feats it takes to get to the dill center of a dill pickle pistol?)
it would go:
Round one: Full attack with on hand pistol (3 in 1)with the -4 penatly, Full attack with off hand pistol (2 in 1) with -4 penalty, at close range vs. touch ac this would be nasty.
Round two: Lightening reload, regular reload, 5 foot step.
Round three: rinse and repeat.
Wouldnt this work?
Edit: i edited this cuz i hit the submit button while sneezing
Ok, so why cant you TWF with dill pickles in each hand, and triple shot witht he left and ddouble shot with the left (depending on how many feats it takes to get to the dill center of a gun shooty pop?)
Nothing is stopping you. That's the beauty of it. Because you're only using up two shots, but the "attacks" are spread between the two.
In fact, the dual pistols thing could help alleviate the issue with attacking multiple targets. Granted, it only expands the range to two, but honestly, how many times are you going to be attacking more than two targets ANYWAY?
The musket/rifle/arquebus/whatever will remain a highly damaging but single-target only weapon.
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Ok, so why cant you TWF with dill pickles in each hand, and triple shot witht he left and ddouble shot with the left (depending on how many feats it takes to get to the dill center of a gun shooty pop?)
I don't see why not. This is the kind of detail I'd leave to the fresh coffeed up Paizo team tomorrow morning though... I'm on Eastern time so 2am now and I won't try the mechanics on this one right now... ALTHOUGH....
IT SOUNDS LIKE KRYPTIC YOU JUST FOUND AN AWESOME WAY TO BLEND GREATER TWO WEAPON FIGHTING INTO THIS!!!!!!!
YES! THANK YOU PICKLE BROTHERS:
Build 1, two pistols, greater two weapon fighting way...
Build 2, one musket, rapid shot and/or mulishot way...
AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!
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Ok, so why cant you TWF with dill pickles in each hand, and triple shot with the right and double shot with the left (depending on how many feats it takes to get to the dill center of a dill pickle pistol?)
it would go:
Round one: Full attack with on hand pistol (3 in 1)with the -4 penatly, Full attack with off hand pistol (2 in 1) with -4 penalty, at close range vs. touch ac this would be nasty.
Round two: Lightening reload, regular reload, 5 foot step.
Round three: rinse and repeat.
Wouldnt this work?
Edit: i edited this cuz i hit the submit button while sneezing
AGREED!! except i think they should be like hand crossbows so -2 everywhere instead of -4!!! AND I think we could now do without the Touch AC subsystem!!!!
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In fact, the dual pistols thing could help alleviate the issue with attacking multiple targets. Granted, it only expands the range to two, but honestly, how many times are you going to be attacking more than two targets ANYWAY?
The musket/rifle/arquebus/whatever will remain a highly damaging but single-target only weapon.
loving this... [eats more pickles from Kryptic's new crate...]
Ok, so why cant you TWF with dill pickles in each hand, and triple shot witht he left and ddouble shot with the left (depending on how many feats it takes to get to the dill center of a gun shooty pop?)I don't see why not. This is the kind of detail I'd leave to the fresh coffeed up Paizo team tomorrow morning though... I'm on Eastern time so 2am now and I won't try the mechanics on this one right now... ALTHOUGH....
IT SOUNDS LIKE KRYPTIC YOU JUST FOUND AN AWESOME WAY TO BLEND GREATER TWO WEAPON FIGHTING INTO THIS!!!!!!!
YES! THANK YOU PICKLE BROTHER:
Build 1, two pistols, greater two weapon fighting way...
Build 2, one musket, rapid shot and/or mulishot way...
AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!
That's what I'm talking about dude! And, if Gunslingers will in fact be based upon the Fighter chassis, then you will have an ample amount of feats to work with for either build.
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That's what I'm talking about dude! And, if Gunslingers will in fact be based upon the Fighter chassis, then you will have an ample amount of feats to work with for either build.IT SOUNDS LIKE KRYPTIC YOU JUST FOUND AN AWESOME WAY TO BLEND GREATER TWO WEAPON FIGHTING INTO THIS!!!!!!!
YES! THANK YOU PICKLE BROTHER:
Build 1, two pistols, greater two weapon fighting way...
Build 2, one musket, rapid shot and/or mulishot way...
AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!
Yes. This is awesome. DEX to damage plus weapon specialization three times into the same shot is awefreakin'some!!! fighter love! gunslinger love! gunfighter love! everywhere! multiclassing with rogue now also awesome!
Pirates = fighter/gunslinger/rogues!!! come on! we've always known it! if FEELS SO RIGHT!!! The pirates are all using the rapier in one hand and gun in the other, of course! (musketeers are not pirates: just fighter/gunslingers... everyone knows that... the only reason flashy mister Dartagnan ever got popular was because he cheated and took a rogue level...)
Granted, it will require some polishing, but that's what the folks at Paizo are paid to do, lol.
It is rather exciting to be working on a way to keep the flavor of flintlocks, rather than walk down the "revolverslol" road...
Hm!
There must be something in these pickles. You are both behaving strangely.
Yet...
I cannot deny this briny, cucumber wisdom.
I approve. Carry on, Picklemancers.
It appears that PDK and I are both on Eastern time, which makes it about 2:30 AM right now.
So.
Yeah.
I'm headed out as well. Everybody keep posting here so it remains at the top of the boards.
I will not let this die until one of the Paizo staff acknowledges this option.
Goodnight...err...good morning....
Hm!
There must be something in these pickles. You are both behaving strangely.
Yet...
I cannot deny this briny, cucumber wisdom.
I approve. Carry on, Picklemancers.
It appears that PDK and I are both on Eastern time, which makes it about 2:30 AM right now.
So.
Yeah.
Same here. lol
No i still think it needs to be touch AC at close range even with this thing. It's a bullet it should be nasty, just not too nasty.
The touch AC was fine, we just needed to fix the attack thing, which i think this does.
Still doesnt mean i dont want to see sidekicks, and alchemy gunners!
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Ok, while I have kept from the majority of discussion on any of the UC playtests so far (Due to not having the opportunity to actually PLAY them yet) I believe it appropriate as any time to start contributing.
First off, I don't quite understand the mechanics behind what you are suggesting. The fluff and flavor of the thing is amazing, but the mechanical justification behind it seems quite lacking... along with the appropriate crunch.
This leads me to believe that I am either missing out on some basic concept or it has yet to be properly defined.
Right now in my mind I what I think you are trying to say.
You make 3 separate attack rolls on a single shot. This means that you will deal damage normally on any of the "hits" the bullet makes while only really firing your weapon once. This seems pretty straightforward. As one poster suggested the "magical JFK bullet." To those who don't understand the reference, google is your friend.
-I have a few problems with this
1) While this does not mechanically increase the chance of a misfire it does present a new and unique problem for the class. As it has always been possible to fumble I can see this being something of a compound problem as rolling a 1 would cause a misfire & a fumble. This system has the effect making it so a single bullet can take a weapon from perfectly good condition to being destroyed in a single round. This does not make any logical sense to me that a practiced Gunslinger would put such a large amount of focus into an attack only to literally have the weapon blow up in his face.
2) I understand that this is to allow the weapon to deal more damage but having the weapon fire once, and mechanically hit the target three times causes some interesting interactions. Such has what happens if you critically hit, and fumble on the same attack? Do you succeed and fail? Do they cancel each other out and result in a normal hit? What happens if you critically hit twice and you happen to be using the Critical hits deck? Do you suddenly shoot both his eye out and stick him in the lung? I am sorry... I just don't buy it.
I understand the need to get more bang out of the gunslinger buck(shot) but I don't think this is the way to do it.
Personally, I would prefer if they simply gave the vital strike chain of feats for free as they level, or short that, be treated as if they had is with any firearm they selected for Gun Training(Ex). It keeps things within the normal realm of mechanical rules, while achieving a similar effect.
This method also has the benefit of leaving intact a place for players who would still rather fire multiple shots per round as a playstyle. Sure they get to add their Dex mod, and magical enhancements to damage multiple times but they also run the same risk of missing.
On a side note, I agree that the touch AC is bad rules. It needs to go and really serves no purpose for a PC that already has full BAB and is encouraged to utilize dexterity which happens to be their "damage" stat as well as their aiming one after level 5. The realism in this case is neat... but breaks too many molds IMO.
I am seriously considering shifting my playtest build to this rule. I think this might work very well.
You can even make it more picklemancey by binding these abilities into a specific subset.
No need for custom feats:
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Hail of Lead
The Gunslingers ability to aim and damage reaches the first plateau of serious distinction. When taking a full attack action, the Gunslinger makes all his iterative attacks with a -single bullet-, against a single target. That is, one at BAB6, and the second at BAB1, as per normal. Pistoleers may still access Two Weapon Fighting in order to use their off-hand shot against a second target. Rapid Shot in this circumstance means the Gunslinger is trying to put his bullet in a much more significant place, and this class feature allows Rapid Shot to function on the same shot as the usual Hail of Lead iterative attack sequence.
Blaze of Glory
As the Gunslinger continues to improve, he begins to intuit the movement and vulnerabilities of his targets. This second plateau of significant distinction allows the gunslinger to access Improved Two Weapon fighting on his off-hand pistol, and make full iterative attacks with a single bullet. Once again, this does not qualify the Gunslinger for any feats or offer any virtual feats, it only allows the gunslinger to -access- these feats with their iterative attacks. Non-gunslingers or multi-class gunslingers who do not have these higher level class features are locked into the lesser iterative attack sequences.
Last Man Standing
Finally becoming one with the gun, the Gunslinger reaches transcendental ability to put what would ordinarily be considered a highly inaccurate ball of soft metal into extremely important vital parts. The Gunslinger can now make his full iterative attack sequence, and can access Great Two Weapon Fighting with his off hand pistol. This means that the gunslinger wielding two pistols and the Greater Two Weapon Fighting feat now fires with his +16/+11/+6/+1 full iterative attack against a single target with one bullet, and with his +16/+11/+6 offhand attacks against the same or another target, taking the usual -2 to all attacks as usual. The Gunslinger with Rapid Shot could also take a further -2 to all attacks and add his additional +16BAB attack to either pistol shot.
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Locking these abilities to a class feature means that single-class gunslingers are more capable and powerful with firearms than gunslingers who have sneak attack, or bombs. ;D
I would have all the rolls after the first just be confirmation rolls. So you hit with your first attack roll good roll a 1 on the next roll nothing happens it just misses. Same with an extra 20 first roll crits good second roll crits normal damage. This way it keeps it all very simple as to what happens no confusion or anything.
Hmmm,
Actually, doing it like this, it wouldn't matter whether it was flintlocks or revolvers or lever action. A revolver has more shots before reload, but that's the only advantage. So instead of loading every other round, you load every 6th round. A big advanatage, but not overwhelming.
This leads me to believe that I am either missing out on some basic concept or it has yet to be properly defined.
They were a bit sleep deprived when they hashed out the concept, so fresh from a full nights rest, I'll try and explain in terms that involve fewer pickles and hopefully clearer language :)
The basic idea, as far as I can tell, is that each attack roll in a full attack action represents an attempt to aim the gun more and more center of mass. Only making one of your attack rolls would be a graze or a hit to a limb. Hitting with 3 consecutive attack rolls is a sucking chest wound, and so is a much more devastating wound. It does have a few issues to work out, but I think they are manageable.
1) While this does not mechanically increase the chance of a misfire it does present a new and unique problem for the class. As it has always been possible to fumble I can see this being something of a compound problem as rolling a 1 would cause a misfire & a fumble. This system has the effect making it so a single bullet can take a weapon from perfectly good condition to being destroyed in a single round. This does not make any logical sense to me that a practiced Gunslinger would put such a large amount of focus into an attack only to literally have the weapon blow up in his face.
You are kind of backwards here. Unfortunately, the way the rules are written now right now 3 attack rolls WOULD imply 3 chances to misfire. However, natural 1's resulting in a critical fumble are a house rule only. They simply miss. Now the fact that they misfire on a 1 probably does mean that on a misfire the full attack with that would should stop cause yeah, bit of a death spiral there.
I can see how in the final version to fix the 'Oh no, I rolled two 2's in a row everything goes boom!' problem could be handled in two ways:
1)Either the misfire chance ONLY occurs on the first roll (when you pull the trigger, more or less) or
2)A misfire as part of the full attack stops the rest of the attack rolls in the full attack action(which can be explained away as the flash back/weird recoil completely throws the Gunslinger's aim.)
2) I understand that this is to allow the weapon to deal more damage but having the weapon fire once, and mechanically hit the target three times causes some interesting interactions. Such has what happens if you critically hit, and fumble on the same attack? Do you succeed and fail? Do they cancel each other out and result in a normal hit?
You aren't hitting three locations, you are making each roll to attempt to hit a more vital location. So say you roll a 20, then a 15 and confirm the crit, and then roll a 1 and miss(and something might happen here with a misfire, which I covered above). Roll #1 is 'Do I hit him the guy?' and the answer is yes, definitely! Roll #2 is 'Do I hit him critically?' and the answer is also yes. Roll #3 is 'Right through the heart?' and the answer here is emphatically no. However, you did hit him, and catastrophically, just not center of mass. Bam, you got lucky and found an artery and boy is there a lot of blood! Also, you managed to damage your gun in the process(maybe?).
What happens if you critically hit twice and you happen to be using the Critical hits deck? Do you suddenly shoot both his eye out and stick him in the lung? I am sorry... I just don't buy it.
This... is something that needs to be figured out. Critical hit decks aren't Core though, so that may or not really be something Paizo has to address. I don't use the critical decks personally, so I really can't help there.
I understand the need to get more bang out of the gunslinger buck(shot) but I don't think this is the way to do it.
Personally, I would prefer if they simply gave the vital strike chain of feats for free as they level, or short that, be treated as if they had is with any firearm they selected for Gun Training(Ex). It keeps things within the normal realm of mechanical rules, while achieving a similar effect.
Except that Vital Strike is totally incompatible with Full Attack actions, which is all we are dealing with here. This lets a dual-pistol Gunslinger with Improved TWF not end up blowing 55+gp per turn just to make a full attack with non-magical, hell, not even masterwork, ammunition. Also, right now a full-attacking pistol wielder is going to be leaving a PILE of pistols at his feet, since Quick Draw only lets you draw as a free action, not resheathe as a free action. He would need 10 non-magical pistols (a 10,000 gp investment!) just to full attack for 2 consecutive turns. At the end of which, by the way, he is pretty much holding clubs.
That said, I agree that giving the Gunslinger more feats/class abilities that replicate feats with guns IS something the designers need to look at(and considering everybody is saying this, they probably are :))
Also worth saying, one of the guys I play with tried out the Gunslinger over the weekend and he had a heck of a good time, so the class definitely has appeal and potential, its just not quite there yet. Almost like its still in testing or something!
Well said, Evil Space Mantis.
Yes, mechanically speaking, the only rolls that would determine misfires would be the first from the gun(s). After that it's just confirmation rolls.
Fumbles on a nat. 1 are a house rule. Let's leave them that way.
Critical decks are also not core.
Issues acknowledged, but let's not shoot down(pun!) what may be the Gunslinger's only hope prematurely, k?
Critical deck solution:
Guns may only draw from a critical deck once per shot.Is there a reason that can't be the correct solution?
Simple and effective.
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No i still think it needs to be touch AC at close range even with this thing. It's a bullet it should be nasty, just not too nasty.
The touch AC was fine, we just needed to fix the attack thing, which i think this does.
Still doesnt mean i dont want to see sidekicks, and alchemy gunners!
If they keep the touch AC thing in, with the pickle version, they seriously need to exclude constructs and oozes from that option I think... maybe even undead (i.e. as per the Brilliant Energy weapon ability)
How does rapid shot work? Is it another bullet or another confirmation roll?
What does Manyshot do?
NOTE: Not Poking Holes! I like the idea! I just want to make sure the obvious questions are covered.
Well, to my mind both Rapid Shot and Manyshot would be in the category of "extra damage." Rapid Shot would be another confirmation roll. Manyshot would just straight up add damage dice.
Reflavor the text to taste and there you go. Or, if you're being really grumpy about it, create an otherwise identical Gunslinger-only ability with the caveat that you can't take the vanilla Rapidshot/Manyshot feats.
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I would have all the rolls after the first just be confirmation rolls. So you hit with your first attack roll good roll a 1 on the next roll nothing happens it just misses. Same with an extra 20 first roll crits good second roll crits normal damage. This way it keeps it all very simple as to what happens no confusion or anything.
I still think all attack rolls should be resolved as normal, so as to keep things simple. The only thing that needs to be tweaked is the misfire rule, as mentioned in the post above by Carbon. "For gunslingers, if one or more of the attacks done as part of the full attack is a one, misfire occurs. Misfire damage does not increase regardless of the number of attacks the gunslinger rolls, as the added damage done by a gunslinger is representative of his aiming accuracy." is basically all you need to add (i.e. although you're rolling 2, 3, 4 or 5 attacks with one bullet, it's still one bullet, so no more than one misfire chance per shot)
Well, to my mind both Rapid Shot and Manyshot would be in the category of "extra damage." Rapid Shot would be another confirmation roll. Manyshot would just straight up add damage dice.
Reflavor the text to taste and there you go. Or, if you're being really grumpy about it, create an otherwise identical Gunslinger-only ability with the caveat that you can't take the vanilla Rapidshot/Manyshot feats.
I think Rapid Shot does not work flavor-wise with this system. You shouldn't be aiming faster to be aiming better. It just falls apart, thematically, for me.
Manyshot totally works as is. You've jammed an extra ball down the barrel, which gives you one bullet that flies more or less true(and so gets multiple attack rolls), and another one that wings off wherever it feels like(and so only deals damage once, no crit, etc. as per normal Manyshot rules).
I don't think we really need to elaborate and hash out solutions to every corner case. I think the basic mechanics and theme behind this idea are argued well enough at this point that the Paizo designers can take the concept and run with it in directions we haven't even considered yet.
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This leads me to believe that I am either missing out on some basic concept or it has yet to be properly defined.
They were a bit sleep deprived when they hashed out the concept, so fresh from a full nights rest, I'll try and explain in terms that involve fewer pickles and hopefully clearer language :)
The basic idea, as far as I can tell, is that each attack roll in a full attack action represents an attempt to aim the gun more and more center of mass. Only making one of your attack rolls would be a graze or a hit to a limb. Hitting with 3 consecutive attack rolls is a sucking chest wound, and so is a much more devastating wound. It does have a few issues to work out, but I think they are manageable.
1) While this does not mechanically increase the chance of a misfire it does present a new and unique problem for the class. As it has always been possible to fumble I can see this being something of a compound problem as rolling a 1 would cause a misfire & a fumble. This system has the effect making it so a single bullet can take a weapon from perfectly good condition to being destroyed in a single round. This does not make any logical sense to me that a practiced Gunslinger would put such a large amount of focus into an attack only to literally have the weapon blow up in his face.
You are kind of backwards here. Unfortunately, the way the rules are written now right now 3 attack rolls WOULD imply 3 chances to misfire. However, natural 1's resulting in a critical fumble are a house rule only. They simply miss. Now the fact that they misfire on a 1 probably does mean that on a misfire the full attack with that would should stop cause yeah, bit of a death spiral there.
I can see how in the final version to fix the 'Oh no, I rolled two 2's in a row everything goes boom!' problem could be handled in two ways:
1)Either the misfire chance ONLY occurs on the first roll (when you pull the trigger, more or less) or
2)A misfire as part...
Evil Space Mantis has been welcomed to the Pickle Brotherhood: despite its stated intent to use less pickles, it did not say it would use NO pickles. And that's good enough for the brotherhood. :P
[A misfire as part of the full attack stops the rest of the attack rolls in the full attack action(which can be explained away as the flash back/weird recoil completely throws the Gunslinger's aim.)]
--> I really like this partial misfire idea... if attack one, two and three are successful, and the fourth is a natural one, bullet goes out and hits for a 3-attack damage, then misfires / gain the broken condition. If attack one is a natural one, the misfire stops the other attacks. GENIUS!
--> critical hits: resolved normally for each attack, as normal. Just imagine that these are actual separate attacks and the class works just fine. Three crits in a row resulting in a 200 damage bullet? I have no problem with that. It's as likely to happen with the gunslinger as it would happen with an archer, after all!
Ok, while I have kept from the majority of discussion on any of the UC playtests so far (Due to not having the opportunity to actually PLAY them yet) I believe it appropriate as any time to start contributing.
First off, I don't quite understand the mechanics behind what you are suggesting. The fluff and flavor of the thing is amazing, but the mechanical justification behind it seems quite lacking... along with the appropriate crunch.
This leads me to believe that I am either missing out on some basic concept or it has yet to be properly defined.
Right now in my mind I what I think you are trying to say.
You make 3 separate attack rolls on a single shot. This means that you will deal damage normally on any of the "hits" the bullet makes while only really firing your weapon once. This seems pretty straightforward. As one poster suggested the "magical JFK bullet." To those who don't understand the reference, google is your friend.
-I have a few problems with this
1) While this does not mechanically increase the chance of a misfire it does present a new and unique problem for the class. As it has always been possible to fumble I can see this being something of a compound problem as rolling a 1 would cause a misfire & a fumble. This system has the effect making it so a single bullet can take a weapon from perfectly good condition to being destroyed in a single round. This does not make any logical sense to me that a practiced Gunslinger would put such a large amount of focus into an attack only to literally have the weapon blow up in his face.
2) I understand that this is to allow the weapon to deal more damage but having the weapon fire once, and mechanically hit the target three times causes some interesting interactions. Such has what happens if you critically hit, and fumble on the same attack? Do you succeed and fail? Do they cancel each other out and result in a normal hit? What happens if you critically hit twice and you happen to be using the Critical hits deck? Do you suddenly shoot both his...
Ok. Im going to respond to this. But first let me just say, I am a bit of a firearms expert, having been to combat and a civilian EMT Ive seen a few gunshot wounds.
Also as a bit of an armchair historian I do alot of reading about Military conflicts. Specifically civil war era on, with that being said:There would be the eggs in one basket rule:
Obviously if you misfire on the first roll, the other ones with the gun/hand are lost. So are misfires worse? kinda.
If you hit or even crit on the fire roll, and misfire on a subsequent roll, its more like awwwww, i had a bead on the dirty bastage, and then it misfired! (so yea, you still screw it up even if you had a crit.)
Let's say you crit twice? Here's the magic bullet theory.
(let me qualify I do NOT believe the magic bullet theory in IRL, i believe there was more than one gunman...but that is neither her nor there)
I have seen IRL, an entry wound and an exit wound for bullets on numerous occasions where you thought it was two separate wounds.
For example: a Case where a soldier got shot in the waist and the bullet exited his foot. Pretty much seemed like two different shots at first glance, it wasnt it was one.
I was there when the round was shot, and there was only one.
What happened was the bullet entered, met up with his hip bone, deflected and followed his femur (thats the big bone in the leg) down his leg until it hit his ankle and exited his foot.
The trouble is, that this wound was fatal. One shot that ended up severing his femoral artery so bad we could not staunch the blood flow.
I would call that a double crit.
So in game terms lets say you get with the deck a gut shot and an eye wound? You can either take the best of the two (option) or claim magic bullet theory and say something like the above happened. It's really just a fantasy game.
If you use the deck, and attack with a x3 or x4 crit weapon, it says to draw multiple cards and pick the best one, I dont see how the gun would be different.
Except the gun is already a x4 crit weapon, so if you crit twice, would it (since its only a single shot) be a x5 crit? or would it be two separate x4's? because then you would draw 6 cards and pick the best.
I say the latter.
my 2cp
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How does rapid shot work? Is it another bullet or another confirmation roll?
What does Manyshot do?
NOTE: Not Poking Holes! I like the idea! I just want to make sure the obvious questions are covered.
Just imagine they are separate attacks. The feats work normally. Just take the -2 penalty on all attacks if you use Rapid Shot.
I think Rapid Shot does not work flavor-wise with this system. You shouldn't be aiming faster to be aiming better. It just falls apart, thematically, for me.
Manyshot totally works as is. You've jammed an extra ball down the barrel, which gives you one bullet that flies more or less true(and so gets multiple attack rolls), and another one that wings off wherever it feels like(and so only deals damage once, no crit, etc. as per normal Manyshot rules).
I don't think we really need to elaborate and hash out solutions to every corner case. I think the basic mechanics and theme behind this idea are argued well enough at this point that the Paizo designers can take the concept and run with it in directions we haven't even considered yet.
A) You're getting hung up on the title of Rapid Shot. Don't. Mechanically speaking for the Gunslinger, it would just be another roll. If people truly have a problem with the title, then rename it as a gunslinger ability that cannot be mixed with vanilla Rapid Shot/Manyshot
B) Ehh...I'm not so sure that concept makes much sense. I mean, if one bullet/musket ball is doing all this damage, how does one adequately justify the other one being so piddly? Besides, the idea is to save as much money on ammo as possible.
C) I agree with you there. Our job is not to perfect it. Simply supplying Paizo with a workable system is enough. They're the ones getting paid, after all...
We are play testing an 8th level pickle wielding Gunslinger Tonight
We are play testing an 8th level pickle wielding Gunslinger Tonight
May you roll high.
For some reason I also just imagined Clint Eastwood in spaghetti westerns, chewing on a pickle instead of a cigar.