I've been playing Pathfinder since about the time it came out, and 3.5 for years now. I just want to set that out here, so I don't get accused of any sort of evil-doery. Now a couple thoughts about the Gunslinger.
There is no niche in which (other than Golarion's magic free zone. Also, no offense Paizo, but I thought the rules were neutral as far as that went.) for black powder to evolve. Not just expensive, or inexpense, but utterly nicheless. In the same sense of the word that the current US Army doesn't have a gun that shoots knives.
Gun powder dominance came about in the world when it could out-range the competition, out kill the competition, and be reliable and cheap. What that means in Pathfinder terms, it must be better than swords and shields.
On first impulse, you may think, AHA! It was better IRL, and should be here! However, it wasn't until the late 1600's that guns became better than crossbows. That was almost 600 years after their introduction. What they did possess was shock and awe, and the ability to kill with that. Men were horrified to charge at a group of soldiers that would shoot thunder at them and kill them. For the longest time however, they were of limited use other than as morale weapons. The 1600's saw guns increase in use because they were getting better and overcoming their previous issues.
In Pathfinder, though, we have working shock and awe weapons that utterly defeat guns. Magic. A fireball spell would be more impressive and deal more damage in a wider area. What the gun did originally is completely outclassed here. Gunpowder has no place in a world where wizards do the big boomy. They would take hundreds of years to get to the Flintlock or Matchlock, and until guns and muskets hit that point, they were outclassed as killers of men by crossbows.
The Gunslinger also has no reload rate based anywhere in reality, now while this doesn't seem to play to Pathfinder too much, i.e. magic and the like, but by the same token, swords are melee weapons and appear to do as much as swords might in the real world. So why then, does the gunslinger's reload rate far outstrip any real world gun?
Finally, they don't fit in even then mechanically. A gunslinger who has a 10% chance to lose a 51gp investment, and then spend 3 rounds fixing the issue and firing for 1d12 (average 7), doesn't seem to fit in with a fighter would could have smacked them for 6d6+12 (33 average) damage in the same amount of time.
Not everyone can use magic, not everyone is smart enough to comprehend the arcane writings of the wizard, not everyone has a monstrous lineage, and can devote themselves heart and soul to a faith. There are some out there that envy a mage's power and would strive to obtain it. Those that fail, seek out alternatives. Alchemy can be seen as a result of this, but they still require a higher degree of intelligence. It may be hard to believe a stupid person can create gun powder, but that is most likely what happened.
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Gunpowder has no place in a world where wizards do the big boomy. They would take hundreds of years to get to the Flintlock or Matchlock, and until guns and muskets hit that point, they were outclassed as killers of men by crossbows.
Several commercially successful and critically acclaimed d20 settings (Iron Kingdoms and Warcraft d20, to begin with) show exactly the otherwise.
Also, Ultimate Combat IS setting neutral.
Also, talking about historic realism in a game of wizards & demons is kind of funny.
Not everyone can use magic, not everyone is smart enough to comprehend the arcane writings of the wizard, not everyone has a monstrous lineage, and can devote themselves heart and soul to a faith. There are some out there that envy a mage's power and would strive to obtain it. Those that fail, seek out alternatives. Alchemy can be seen as a result of this, but they still require a higher degree of intelligence. It may be hard to believe a stupid person can create gun powder, but that is most likely what happened.
What you are missing isn't that gunpowder is in existance, but that there would be guns sufficiently advanced to use it. Guns too 600 years to get good enough for widespread use, but gunpowder didn't change. So assuming that you are correct, and an idiot made it, who is going to spend the time research for years to figure out how to make efficient guns? No one, because the wizard does it better and cheaper.
There is a reason that flying cars don't exist, not because we can't, but because it is both impratical and expensive. Its cheaper just to drive everywhere. Same for the gunpowder and guns, why bother when the wizard does it better and cheaper?Several commercially successful and critically acclaimed d20 settings (Iron Kingdoms and Warcraft d20, to begin with) show exactly the otherwise.
Also, talking about historic realism in a game of wizards & demons is kind of funny.
Lol wut? I was arguing a military-industrial argument, not that it isn't cool or what not. In that argument, why doesn't real life have magic, several commercially successful products, World of WarCraft and Pathfinder show exactly the otherwise.
Also, again I showed that Pathfinder bears a passing resemblance to reality, but I was questioning the part where it diverges so amazingly.Also, a new point I recently saw, a 1st level human monk can catch your bullet and hurl it back at you. I don't know all the rules for snatch arrow, but its possible that he might be able to catch it and hurt you for a d12, the damage you would have done, to you. For certain, it fits the definition for what he could deflect or catch.
What you are missing isn't that gunpowder is in existance, but that there would be guns sufficiently advanced to use it. Guns too 600 years to get good enough for widespread use, but gunpowder didn't change. So assuming that you are correct, and an idiot made it, who is going to spend the time research for years to figure out how to make efficient guns? No one, because the wizard does it better and cheaper.
There is a reason that flying cars don't exist, not because we can't, but because it is both impratical and expensive. Its cheaper just to drive everywhere. Same for the gunpowder and guns, why bother when the wizard does it better and cheaper?
There isn't magic where guns in dnd are made, and if people can be coaxed into buying something it will be improved, that's how they did it with cell phones (the first ones were briefcases)
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Those that fail, seek out alternatives.I point you toward the longbow. As it is currently, the longbow is a far better bet than the musket as far as alternate forms of damage-dealing power. The good part is, even a stupid person can use it. And if you really want to go for the flashy magic stuff, a flask of alchemist's fire is only 20gp as opposed to the 51gp required to purchase a single shot from a musket.
Also, talking about historic realism in a game of wizards & demons is kind of funny.It's less to do with historical realism and more to do with a logical progression of technology. As Mr Jade said, it doesn't fit any niche. There's no reason for anyone to fund its development. Anyone wealthy enough to afford a gunsmith could afford ten times the alchemists, wizards, clerics, or any other of the multitude of spellcasters.
We're talking about reality where one builds castles when his enemies can potentially scry+teleport+disintegrate. When you try to marry D&D with history, you start getting weird problems, so it's best just to ignore the whole historical angle and try not to over-think some of the more wonky areas.
There isn't magic where guns in dnd are made, and if people can be coaxed into buying something it will be improved, that's how they did it with cell phones (the first ones were briefcases)
That is how it is for ONE setting, and the rules are not supposed to limit themselves to one setting.
As for your cell phone argument, there was nothing that could compete with the cell phone's niche. There wasn't a magical phone that you could transport with you where ever you went. There was only the cell phone. However, in Pathfinder, there are Wizards, continuing the cell phone analogy, who could make you the phone cheaper, better, and it never ran out of battery!Sure eventually, mundane might get better, but why would you waste 600 years of research to make it so? You wouldn't.
So no, people wouldn't have bought your non-magical phone.
That is how it is for ONE setting, and the rules are not supposed to limit themselves to one setting.
As for your cell phone argument, there was nothing that could compete with the cell phone's niche. There wasn't a magical phone that you could transport with you where ever you went. There was only the cell phone. However, in Pathfinder, there are Wizards, continuing the cell phone analogy, who could make you the phone cheaper, better, and it never ran out of battery!
Sure eventually, mundane might get better, but why would you waste 600 years of research to make it so? You wouldn't.
So no, people wouldn't have bought your non-magical phone.
Wizards run out of battery all the time, how many spells you get a day? how many calls do I want to make? (hint: more then you've got spells)
especially in a world with magic, people will look for ways to make the mundane match it, not everyone can casts spells
Wizards run out of battery all the time, how many spells you get a day? how many calls do I want to make? (hint: more then you've got spells)
especially in a world with magic, people will look for ways to make the mundane match it, not everyone can casts spells
Actually, a continuously activated Message spell costs 1,000 gp. Less than that of a musket. So assuming your mundane phone costs about that much, my magic phone doesn't run out of battery and is still cheaper. I just can't confrence call yet.
Wizards run out of battery all the time, how many spells you get a day? how many calls do I want to make? (hint: more then you've got spells)I ask you, how many bullets do you have? Even on the fast xp track (which nets you the most gold per encounter), you're expected return on a single encounter is only 100gp per person (assuming a 4 man party). That means you really, can't even afford to expend 2 shots per encounter. That's totally un-economical, bro. No one would buy that.
I can't disagree with this, unless you made your own ammo (1/3 the price). Better, but still expensive.
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Logical and/or lolgical progression of technology, culture, and market trends is something best left for individual campaign settings to tackle. It's not something a rule book meant to offer optional options from which people can pick and choose what they want really has to worry over.
tl;dr: Lighten up, Francis.
Actually, a continuously activated Message spell costs 1,000 gp. Less than that of a musket. So assuming your mundane phone costs about that much, my magic phone doesn't run out of battery and is still cheaper. I just can't confrence call yet.Wizards run out of battery all the time, how many spells you get a day? how many calls do I want to make? (hint: more then you've got spells)
especially in a world with magic, people will look for ways to make the mundane match it, not everyone can casts spells
or call someone you cant see or that is past 200ft
Guns currently have pricing issues (among other things) but thats how most new technology starts, horribly useless and exspensive
Logical and/or lolgical progression of technology, culture, and market trends is something best left for individual campaign settings to tackle. It's not something a rule book meant to offer optional options from which people can pick and choose what they want really has to worry over.
tl;dr: Lighten up, Francis.
While that may be true, my 3rd and 4th contentions haven't even been argued yet. There are mechanically weak, and a 1st level monk can easily negate a Gunslinger without rapid reload for 2 rounds.
Thus, we playtest.
And hence why I post the issues as I see it. And I'm not even touching that horrid 'Endless Bank' grit feature.
The point of the matter is that the gunslinger, aside from having no logical place in the world of PathfinderAlkenstar.
is ridiculously under-powered, and why anyone would willingly agree to play one is beyond my comprehension.Rule of Cool/Apple Jacks Kids' response.
For the first point, the rules are neutral. So Alkenstar has no place in my world of Edar. Or maychance anyone else's.
As for the second one, I suppose. Rule of Cool to me is more of an explanation for over-the-top-ness and over-power-icity than it is under-poweredness.
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The point of the matter is that the gunslinger, aside from having no logical place in the world of PathfinderAlkenstar.
is ridiculously under-powered, and why anyone would willingly agree to play one is beyond my comprehension.Rule of Cool/Apple Jacks Kids' response.http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/groups/1/3/2055/thumb_620x2000/HeresySt amp.png
For the first point, the rules are neutral. So Alkenstar has no place in my world of Edar. Or maychance anyone else's.
As for the second one, I suppose. Rule of Cool to me is more of an explanation for over-the-top-ness and over-power-icity than it is under-poweredness.
First point dealt with the claim that gunslingers had no place in the world of Pathfinder. This was demonstrably false. Also, if your campaign setting lacks an Alkenstar or any other place friendly to the Gunslinger class, the Gunslinger class is not geared towards your world. Move on and let those who are interested and who do have room for it have the class.
Rule of Cool justifies doing whatever because one finds it cool, whether it's someone trying to emulate DBZ or someone wanting to play an underdog with style.
Also, Imperium/Space Nazis suck. Play Orks.
Also, Imperium/Space Nazis suck. Play Orks.
Green izn't alwayz da best ya know boss. Dem Grotz ova der play wif dem humies!
Other than that, you might have a point. Heh. Or have one. But the point that 3rd was trying to make was that they are illogical and uneconomical.
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First point dealt with the claim that gunslingers had no place in the world of Pathfinder. This was demonstrably false. Also, if your campaign setting lacks an Alkenstar or any other place friendly to the Gunslinger class, the Gunslinger class is not geared towards your world. Move on and let those who are interested and who do have room for it have the class.Allow me to clarify my meaning for "the world of Pathfinder." Pathfinder is a game which is understood to take place in a world of Medieval high-fantasy. That's what I meant by that. Medieval high-fantasy. Not post-renaissance high-fantasy.
This is one of the bigger myths that Pathfinder/D&D still need to shake off. It isn't hardcoded as medieval by default. It can be played that way, but it isn't the all-encompassing assumption. Most worlds developed of late have been wild anachronism stews, some of which work for some folks and not for others. Everyone has their preferences and lines they draw for what they want in their worlds. Gunslinger is present for those whose worlds go outside the scope of just medieval.
Now does it need work? Oh yes. (personally I'm pulling for it to get bumped to full Base Class just to free it up from the fighter format a little)
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D&D . . . isn't hardcoded as medieval by defaultSorry, bro, but D&D is hardcore medieval by default. The original game came out of medieval wargaming in the form of chainmail. Wikipedia it. The original boxed set of D&D was the direct result of the fantasy variant rules for that game. What a couple of recent settings have done doesn't change the heart and soul of the game, and personally don't think that guns have a place in high fantasy (at least not as they are presented in Ultimate Combat, which is to say weak and expensive).
The original game's setting also featured a cowboy as a god and a crashed spaceship.
And let's not even start on Mystara... (scottish liches living next to vikings living next to albino werewolves wearing sunglasses living next to Mongols living next to gnomes in biplanes living above elves worshipping a nuclear physicist living under WHAT WERE THEY SMOKING!?!)
The game has only continued to grow since then, further out of its medieval Europe roots to enable games that go outside that narrow scope. It was on its way there before 3rd edition in fact. Then we get to Pathfinder, where the core world map is half Europe, half Africa, with a side dish of the Middle East and an Indian appetizer(that has only left some of us hungry for more Paizo, HINT HINT!) and robots with machinegun mandibles and dinosaurs and lost technology and 19th century military uniform fashion and guillotines. And a crashed spaceship.
When D&D starts modeling all the effects literally being able to talk to God would have in a world, we can complain about guns and technology.
http://jgrimbert.free.fr/add2/advice/?mots=laser
That is a serious question about whether a magic spell could stop a laser gun. Someone, somewhere, was having an argument about this, and Dragon provided a forum where they could appeal to a higher authority and find a definitive answer.
And that is amazing.
D&D . . . isn't hardcoded as medieval by defaultSorry, bro, but D&D is hardcore medieval by default. The original game came out of medieval wargaming in the form of chainmail. Wikipedia it. The original boxed set of D&D was the direct result of the fantasy variant rules for that game. What a couple of recent settings have done doesn't change the heart and soul of the game, and personally don't think that guns have a place in high fantasy (at least not as they are presented in Ultimate Combat, which is to say weak and expensive).
Are Titans, Medusas (Gorgons, in truth, but that's another story), Wendigos and Deva medieval monsters?
D&D is a kitchen sink from every awesome stuff imagined in every corner of the world.
Monks, Druids, and Pineapples...
I will at the very least agree that guns as presented in UC belong in high fantasy.
Or any style.
Or any genre.
See the joke is that the guns are awful.
There is no niche in which for black powder to evolve.
"Niche is dead" - God
I don't care whether someone thinks that gunslingers don't belong to the game or anything. They're awesome and they're wanted and they're here, not going away again. So don't use them in your game if you don't like them. But don't piss in other people's beds just because the roof leaked into yours and you woke up wet.
Dead magic zones exist in many settings, prized locations for people who fear or despise magic or home to those forced to live in them. There's the niche for development.
Dealing with an alternate world, why assume tech advances work on the same timescale as ours. If Sam Colt was born a few centuries earlier, maybe we would've gone directly from matchlocks to revolvers. Genius trumps centuries is one of the common concepts in alternate history fiction. I think the trick to the gunslinger is updated firearm tech, or possibly fantasy/steampunk alternatives to the revolver/rifle to go less cowboy.
Give the gunslinger the ability to reduce/ignore misfire chance, and possibly even up it further for non-gunslingers. Have them craft their own guns and shots to reduce costs, possibly giving them some virtual resources for doing so per level like the artificer. Up the guns as a competitive or even superior weapon, balanced by the misfire rates for non-gunslingers. Make sure deadly aim works with them. I'd prefer their attacks deny dex rather than ignore armor, I believe that would stop monks from catching bullets with their teeth without creating a next tier feat to the deflect arrows chain.
In the same sense of the word that the current US Army doesn't have a gun that shoots knives.
Okay, so it's Russian. But still.
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here's my idle thought.
Someone previously suggested that black powder could be rationalized as to only be able to be manufactured in a null magic zone.
that brought up an interesting idea
we keep considering gunpowder as just...well gunpowder
but what if it were more than that? what if the powder wasn't just charcoal, sulpher and saltpeter?
Those of you who have played FFXI, might remember the 'Quick Draw' ability, that let you fire off elemental damage shots.
Lets make gunpowder itself more fantasy based, as well as less prone to 'barrels of gunpowder solve any situation'
Maybe the gunpowder is shattered crystaline dust combined with alchemical properties or something.
I think this'll be a key concept to both up damage for gunslingers, and end some of the debate.
Like perhaps a 'soothing' gunpowder that removes misfire chance, or one that has elemental damage in it.
like a hellfire powder that belches out a stream of fire when 'shot'
Cirno, Mikaze, KaeYoss and myself on one side of an argument. First success of Ultimate Combat! ;-)Go play in traffic.
Don't be like that. We're all great friends now.
Here Gorbacz, I even have presents for you.
:P
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Cirno, Mikaze, KaeYoss and myself on one side of an argument. First success of Ultimate Combat! ;-)Go play in traffic.
Don't be like that. We're all great friends now.
Here Gorbacz, I even have presents for you.
:P
*cuts the shoes into pieces, ties the shoelace around his head and runs barefoot across the highway shouting "BAZINGA!"*
Dealing with an alternate world, why assume tech advances work on the same timescale as ours. If Sam Colt was born a few centuries earlier, maybe we would've gone directly from matchlocks to revolvers.If Sam Colt had been born a few centuries earlier, there's a good chance he would have been a farmer who never went farther than ten miles from his home village. Inventors build on the technologies the precede them. Denied the hundreds of years of development available by the 19th century, Colt would have had nothing to work with. Just sayin'.
And even in a setting with dead magic zones, the gunslinger is still much much worse than an archer of equivalent level. So, why on earth would he even exist?
Genius trumps time. Some people advance humanity despite history instead of as a result of it. Last I heard, it was debatable if the periods of slow advancement between advancement explosions were necessary, or if proper conditions + right people are more important than workhorse science. For raw discovery that is, for proper purposement of revelations the grind is obviously necessary.
As the guns are now, there is no reason for the gunslinger to exist, which is why I think any fix for the 'slinger must mostly be about their guns.
"Niche is dead" - God
This is currently the 'Quote of the Year' for me XD