You walked into the party like you were walking onto a yacht
Your hat strategically dipped below one eye
Your scarf it was apricot
You had one eye in the mirror as you watched yourself gavotte
And all the girls dreamed that they'd be your partner
They'd be your partner, and...
You're so vain, you probably think this song is about you
You're so vain, I'll bet you think this song is about you
Don't you? don't you?
You had me several years ago when I was still quite naive
Well you said that we made such a pretty pair
And that you would never leave
But you gave away the things you loved and one of them was me
I had some dreams, they were clouds in my coffee
Clouds in my coffee, and...
You're so vain, you probably think this song is about you
You're so vain, I'll bet you think this song is about you
Don't you? don't you? don't you?
I had some dreams they were clouds in my coffee
Clouds in my coffee, and...
You're so vain, you probably think this song is about you
You're so vain, I'll bet you think this song is about you
Don't you? don't you?
Well I hear you went up to Saratoga and your horse naturally won
Then you flew your Lear Jet up to Nova Scotia
To see the total eclipse of the sun
Well you're where you should be all the time
And when you're not you're with
Some underworld spy or the wife of a close friend
Wife of a close friend, and...
You're so vain, you probably think this song is about you
You're so vain, I'll bet you think this song is about you
Don't you? don't you? don't you?
Vainly naked cheesecake? ;)
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What is political correctness, to you, anyway? I realize our viewpoints might be very different on this angle, but I just want to know more.I despise political correctness, with an ardent passion. Nobody here is attempting to force "PC" on you, just reduce your rudeness.
I'm going to keep fighting the good fight against political correctness. Color me 'thought criminal.' LOL
It's hard for me to explain without coming across as a dick. But simple politeness in speech and apologizing for words that have a disrespectful interpretation is just plain good manners to me.
It's hard for me to explain without coming across as a dick. But simple politeness in speech and apologizing for words that have a disrespectful interpretation is just plain good manners to me.
If you feel that you owe me an apology, go ahead and make one. I'm not upset by your rudeness, but I do think it has detracted from the quality of the thread.
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The personal attack is noted.
I despise political correctness, with an ardent passion. Nobody here is attempting to force "PC" on you, just reduce your rudeness.
You seem to have a very loose idea of what a personal attack is. I guess it's any negative remark directed at you and only you from what I've seen. Note it away, no skin off my back.
It's hard for me to explain without coming across as a dick. But simple politeness in speech and apologizing for words that have a disrespectful interpretation is just plain good manners to me.What is political correctness, to you, anyway? I realize our viewpoints might be very different on this angle, but I just want to know more.I despise political correctness, with an ardent passion. Nobody here is attempting to force "PC" on you, just reduce your rudeness.
I'm going to keep fighting the good fight against political correctness. Color me 'thought criminal.' LOL
This, to me, is the problem with fighting political correctness- part of it is the idea that it should be fought at all, but the bulk of it seems to be that it's impossible to argue problems with the idea without making it sound like you cherish calling people racial/sexual epiteths and getting away with it.
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If you feel that you owe me an apology, go ahead and make one. I'm not upset by your rudeness, but I do think it has detracted from the quality of the thread.
It's hard for me to explain without coming across as a dick. But simple politeness in speech and apologizing for words that have a disrespectful interpretation is just plain good manners to me.
I'll send you an earned apology when it's warranted. Just as I did to Lindisity up thread. Nothing I've said to you was overtly rude, perhaps condescending, but far from rude.
You seem to have a very loose idea of what a personal attack is. I guess it's any negative remark directed at you and only you from what I've seen. Note it away, no skin off my back.
Good, then I suggest that you simply ignore my future posts. We'll all be much happier for it, I'm sure.
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This, to me, is the problem with fighting political correctness- part of it is the idea that it should be fought at all, but the bulk of it seems to be that it's impossible to argue problems with the idea without making it sound like you cherish calling people racial/sexual epiteths and getting away with it.It's hard for me to explain without coming across as a dick. But simple politeness in speech and apologizing for words that have a disrespectful interpretation is just plain good manners to me.What is political correctness, to you, anyway? I realize our viewpoints might be very different on this angle, but I just want to know more.I despise political correctness, with an ardent passion. Nobody here is attempting to force "PC" on you, just reduce your rudeness.
I'm going to keep fighting the good fight against political correctness. Color me 'thought criminal.' LOL
Honestly if forced to describe it, I would say it is taking what should be common sense and politeness to an extreme. I understand that my definition is not what many see when they see PC, but I'm not necessarily sure that it should be fought, despite my resentment of my interpretation of the term.
I'll send you an earned apology when it's warranted. Just as I did to Lindisity up thread. Nothing I've said to you was overtly rude, perhaps condescending, but far from rude.
I consider condescension like that to be a particularly obnoxious form of rudeness.
I will alter my words, tone, etc when I think that such is warranted. Thus far, I see no reason to do so.
So, how about those protests in Egypt?The Bangles are going to remix an old classic, but it'll be renamed Riot Like An Egyptian.
too early?
LOL! Man, I'm glad I was done eating before I read that!
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I'll send you an earned apology when it's warranted. Just as I did to Lindisity up thread. Nothing I've said to you was overtly rude, perhaps condescending, but far from rude.I consider condescension like that to be a particularly obnoxious form of rudeness.
I will alter my words, tone, etc when I think that such is warranted. Thus far, I see no reason to do so.
So you see no need, whatsoever, to alter your words when you offend others, but they should choose their words so as not to offend you?
Let's try that grammar thing again, look up Hypocrite for me.
Pot: Dude! You're black!
Kettle: Don't you marginalize me; you're obviously color-blind!
Pot: Stop oppressing me with your politricks!
Mirror: Hey dudes, mind if I reflect on this conversation?
Pot & Kettle: NO!
+1
So you see no need, whatsoever, to alter your words when you offend others, but they should choose their words so as not to offend you?
Let's try that grammar thing again, look up Hypocrite for me.
I've suggested that attacking someone for giving unintentional offense is a rather poor way of going about getting that person to see things your way. Lindisty chose sarcasm and rudeness as her tools, as you have done. This approach hasn't worked out well for either of you.
I treat people the way they treat me. If you are polite and considerate, then I'm inclined to be polite and considerate.PS- I think that 'wording' would have been a better choice than 'grammar' for that sentence of yours. You were referring to the meaning of a single word, not the structure of a given sentence.
Honestly if forced to describe it, I would say it is taking what should be common sense and politeness to an extreme. I understand that my definition is not what many see when they see PC, but I'm not necessarily sure that it should be fought, despite my resentment of my interpretation of the term.This, to me, is the problem with fighting political correctness- part of it is the idea that it should be fought at all, but the bulk of it seems to be that it's impossible to argue problems with the idea without making it sound like you cherish calling people racial/sexual epiteths and getting away with it.It's hard for me to explain without coming across as a dick. But simple politeness in speech and apologizing for words that have a disrespectful interpretation is just plain good manners to me.What is political correctness, to you, anyway? I realize our viewpoints might be very different on this angle, but I just want to know more.I despise political correctness, with an ardent passion. Nobody here is attempting to force "PC" on you, just reduce your rudeness.
I'm going to keep fighting the good fight against political correctness. Color me 'thought criminal.' LOL
I think that 'political correctness' should mean that every person has a right to define his or her own identity, and to ask others to identify them that way. I think it should mean that when we're communicating in good faith with others, we should try to be aware, inasmuch as it's possible, of how our audience self-identifies, and we should make a basic effort to not gratuitously insult our audience. And, perhaps the most important bit: IF someone in our audience objects to the way we characterize them, we should be willing to consider their perspective and modify our language if appropriate.
(Note the absence of absolute statements there? It's not a hard and fast set of rules, as far as I'm concerned, though I know it's sometimes treated that way. I see it really about being a civilized human being and behaving with compassion and acceptance of those with whom you're in contact.)
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No ewan, you are just one of those guys who feels that he/she can say whatever they want and nobody has a right to point out when they're wrong. This is of course a judgement made only from reading your post here, you may be different in RL, and I'd hope so.
And trust me, when I do lose my temper and decide to get rude and make attacks, it's real easy to tell.
Political correctness is such a hollow concept, even in today's lawyer studded society (bad thought). It basically means that everyone keeps their thoughts to themselves while society chugs along as a whole, ignoring the thoughts and opinions of the mob at large.
While it is a nice utopian idea, it can't work. People have opinions. People in many countries, are allowed to voice them. This is what makes the internet such a wonderful thing. It is the sharing of ideas and thoughts and while it can be offensive to a minority, the contribution reflects society as a whole.
You can't say 'no stereotyping' and ignore statistics. Statistics stating texting while driving cause your reaction times to decrease as if you had pitchers of beer before you were behind the wheel. Statistics being that Dungeon Magazine would fly off the shelf faster if a hot drow chick (drow vampire, maybe?!) was on the cover. Statistics being that people vote with their wallets and their feet.
Someone won't sell an issue of "Fat Insecure Woman Weekly" because a mega dungeon by Monte set with Lolth's Daughter was on the front of a wonderful magazine. Someone won't sell an issue of "Gay Communist Gun Club Monthly" because "The Amazing Alexander" is in town and the issue of hurt emotions rises.
Here is the problem with the 'highfalutin' types...the thought of political correctness will be the downfall of western civilization. Stifle the creative thoughts and energy of people that move goods and services, and we start recycling bad ideas. That stagnation isn't what drives the economic engine. If you gave me an opportunity to buy everything Paizo that I have as is, or have it with Seoni and Amiri in their usual outfits decimating hordes like a Frazetta piece, I've got a lot of reasons to start investing in frames for my apartment.
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Honestly if forced to describe it, I would say it is taking what should be common sense and politeness to an extreme. I understand that my definition is not what many see when they see PC, but I'm not necessarily sure that it should be fought, despite my resentment of my interpretation of the term.This, to me, is the problem with fighting political correctness- part of it is the idea that it should be fought at all, but the bulk of it seems to be that it's impossible to argue problems with the idea without making it sound like you cherish calling people racial/sexual epiteths and getting away with it.It's hard for me to explain without coming across as a dick. But simple politeness in speech and apologizing for words that have a disrespectful interpretation is just plain good manners to me.What is political correctness, to you, anyway? I realize our viewpoints might be very different on this angle, but I just want to know more.I despise political correctness, with an ardent passion. Nobody here is attempting to force "PC" on you, just reduce your rudeness.
I'm going to keep fighting the good fight against political correctness. Color me 'thought criminal.' LOLI think that 'political correctness' should mean that every person has a right to define his or her own identity, and to ask others to identify them that way. I think it should mean that when we're communicating in good faith with others, we should try to be aware, inasmuch as it's possible, of how our audience self-identifies, and we should make a basic effort to not gratuitously insult our audience. And, perhaps the most important bit: IF someone in our audience objects to the way we characterize them, we should be willing to consider their perspective and modify our language if appropriate.
(Note the absence of absolute statements...
I follow what you're saying. I guess I may be a bit old fashioned, but to me all that falls under good manners. And despite my occasional bouts of hot-headedness, I do try to remain polite.
NOTE: I'm not disagreeing with you, just trying to explain what it means to me.
BTW, how are you today Lindisity?
And, perhaps the most important bit: IF someone in our audience objects to the way we characterize them, we should be willing to consider their perspective and modify our language if appropriate.
So, do you think that sarcasm and rudeness are good ways to let someone know that you have taken offense to his choice of words?
Gotcha!Cheese cake, looser than her sister
Cheese cake, uum...her sugar gets me high
She knows I can't resist her
[ From: http://www.elyrics.net/read/a/aerosmith-lyrics/cheese-cake-lyrics.html ]You added that!
<.<
>.>
Nope! Caught you in mid edit! Gninja skills I possess.
{watches thread continue to swerve off road} Oh well, it had its good points. Adios!
Good, then I suggest that you simply ignore my future posts. We'll all be much happier for it, I'm sure.
You seem to have a very loose idea of what a personal attack is. I guess it's any negative remark directed at you and only you from what I've seen. Note it away, no skin off my back.
Unless you are Legion, you don't speak for the rest of us. Thanks. :)
{watches thread continue to swerve off road} Oh well, it had its good points. Adios!
It left the road ages ago. It's now headed for a cliff, with nothing but a pot and a kettle to stop it.
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So, do you think that sarcasm and rudeness are good ways to let someone know that you have taken offense to his choice of words?And, perhaps the most important bit: IF someone in our audience objects to the way we characterize them, we should be willing to consider their perspective and modify our language if appropriate.
Polite speech seems to be beyond you, perhaps she was trying to speak so as to be understood by her intended audience?
LOL! Man, I'm glad I was done eating before I read that!So, how about those protests in Egypt?The Bangles are going to remix an old classic, but it'll be renamed Riot Like An Egyptian.
too early?
I wanted to FB status message that yesterday afternoon, but I got a condescending look from my gal, so I thank you for giving me the opportunity. =)
EDIT: I'm using condescending correctly, right? I don't want to marginalize its intended definition. Political correctness and all that being tossed around this thread. :P
I was enjoying this thread and looks like it will get locked soon... because of the pointless back and forth....
guys can you take the bickering elsewhere please :-).
Lets get back to meat or cheese of this thread.
EDIT: I am reminded of this Monty Pythons Argument Sketch .
<sarcasm>I'm sure those cultures don't matter at all to the people who live in them.</sarcasm>Just because something isn't 'the majority' doesn't mean it should be dismissed as unimportant or irrelevant.
(But then, that's pretty much what a lot of these conversations revolve around. Yes, women (and LGBT folks, and people of color, and kinky folks, etc.) are minorities in gaming culture. That doesn't mean our opinions and voices are unimportant or invalid.)
The post above was uncalled for, IMO. Note the 'sarcasm' tags. Had you chosen a more civil approach, I might even have edited my post to spare your feelings (although I think that my choice of words was perfectly appropriate). Now there is no chance of that.
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Political correctness is a very dangerous idea: That the collective has the right to define what the individual may say. Everyone defending and using this concept states that "it's not absolute rules" and "it's nothing extreme about it, it's just common decency", and blah, blah, blah, but even so, when faced with something they do not like, that goes counter to their arguments, they do not hesitate for an instant to decry the speaker for their not being politically correct or, more commonly: insensitive/offensive/racist/sexist/carbonist. It breeds stupidity like having to know the current status of someone's immigration papers before you can speak of them, like how Obama is not an African-American, or whatever. In all cases, it is used to "win" arguments, and to destroy free speech.
Decency is a weapon of mass destruction to any kind of debate, primarily because the offended party is the one who is presupposed to have right of interpretation. There are tons of proverbs about this, the best is "If you feel harassed, you are harassed." Even worse, political correctness always shifts the focus in a debate from the arguments to WHO presents the arguments. In this, it is a denial of the very concept of a free and open debate.
No, political correctness is about as praiseworthy as eugenics or racial biology.
Oh... just wait. This will make the sparks fly.
{watches thread continue to swerve off road} Oh well, it had its good points. Adios!It left the road ages ago. It's now headed for a cliff, with nothing but a pot and a kettle to stop it.
And the mirror waving frantically from the edge of the cliff.
I think that 'political correctness' should mean that every person has a right to define his or her own identity, and to ask others to identify them that way. I think it should mean that when we're communicating in good faith with others, we should try to be aware, inasmuch as it's possible, of how our audience self-identifies, and we should make a basic effort to not gratuitously insult our audience. And, perhaps the most important bit: IF someone in our audience objects to the way we characterize them, we should be willing to consider their perspective and modify our language if appropriate.(Note the absence of...
I follow what you're saying. I guess I may be a bit old fashioned, but to me all that falls under good manners. And despite my occasional bouts of hot-headedness, I do try to remain polite.
NOTE: I'm not disagreeing with you, just trying to explain what it means to me.
I don't disagree that my definition of political correctness has a lot in common with basic good manners. :) Unfortunately, basic good manners often seem to be sadly lacking, especially in online discourse, so I don't really have a problem with using alternate terminology to get across the idea that we oughta be kind to one another. (And I know that a lot of people think 'PC' is something completely different from what I do. I'm just giving my own working definition.)
BTW, how are you today Lindisity?
I'm doing okay... probably spending more time here than I ought, but keeping myself focused on ... well, much of anything... has been a little difficult lately.
Lindisty:
I think that 'political correctness' should mean that every person has a right to define his or her own identity, and to ask others to identify them that way. I think it should mean that when we're communicating in good faith with others, we should try to be aware, inasmuch as it's possible, of how our audience self-identifies, and we should make a basic effort to not gratuitously insult our audience. And, perhaps the most important bit: IF someone in our audience objects to the way we characterize them, we should be willing to consider their perspective and modify our language if appropriate.(Note the absence of...
I follow what you're saying. I guess I may be a bit old fashioned, but to me all that falls under good manners. And despite my occasional bouts of hot-headedness, I do try to remain polite.
NOTE: I'm not disagreeing with you, just trying to explain what it means to me.
I don't disagree that my definition of political correctness has a lot in common with basic good manners. :) Unfortunately, basic good manners often seem to be sadly lacking, especially in online discourse, so I don't really have a problem with using alternate terminology to get across the idea that we oughta be kind to one another. (And I know that a lot of people think 'PC' is something completely different from what I do. I'm just giving my own working definition.)
BTW, how are you today Lindisity?I'm doing okay... probably spending more time here than I ought, but keeping myself focused on ... well, much of anything... has been a little difficult lately. ** spoiler omitted **
Political correctness is a very dangerous idea: That the collective has the right to define what the individual may say. Everyone defending and using this concept states that "it's not absolute rules" and "it's nothing extreme about it, it's just common decency", and blah, blah, blah, but even so, when faced with something they do not like, that goes counter to their arguments, they do not hesitate for an instant to decry the speaker for their not being politically correct or, more commonly: insensitive/offensive/racist/sexist/carbonist. It breeds stupidity like having to know the current status of someone's immigration papers before you can speak of them, like how Obama is not an African-American, or whatever. In all cases, it is used to "win" arguments, and to destroy free speech.
Decency is a weapon of mass destruction to any kind of debate, primarily because the offended party is the one who is presupposed to have right of interpretation. There are tons of proverbs about this, the best is "If you feel harassed, you are harassed." Even worse, political correctness always shifts the focus in a debate from the arguments to WHO presents the arguments. In this, it is a denial of the very concept of a free and open debate.
No, political correctness is about as praiseworthy as eugenics or racial biology.
Oh... just wait. This will make the sparks fly.
Yes to all of the above! +5
I'm all for civility when it's reciprocal, but I will not tolerant having PC imposed on me. Civility and PC are not the same thing.
I was enjoying this thread and looks like it will get locked soon... because of the pointless back and forth....
guys can you take the bickering elsewhere please :-).
Lets get back to meat or cheese of this thread.
Duly noted 8th Dwarf, and my apologize for my part in it.
No problems mate :-)
Take a look at the link to the Monty Python sketch I added in the edit to my previous post and have a laugh.
Political correctness is a very dangerous idea: That the collective has the right to define what the individual may say. Everyone defending and using this concept states that "it's not absolute rules" and "it's nothing extreme about it, it's just common decency", and blah, blah, blah, but even so, when faced with something they do not like, that goes counter to their arguments, they do not hesitate for an instant to decry the speaker for their not being politically correct or, more commonly: insensitive/offensive/racist/sexist/carbonist. It breeds stupidity like having to know the current status of someone's immigration papers before you can speak of them, like how Obama is not an African-American, or whatever. In all cases, it is used to "win" arguments, and to destroy free speech.
Decency is a weapon of mass destruction to any kind of debate, primarily because the offended party is the one who is presupposed to have right of interpretation. There are tons of proverbs about this, the best is "If you feel harassed, you are harassed." Even worse, political correctness always shifts the focus in a debate from the arguments to WHO presents the arguments. In this, it is a denial of the very concept of a free and open debate.
No, political correctness is about as praiseworthy as eugenics or racial biology.
Oh... just wait. This will make the sparks fly.
Yes to all of the above! +5
I'm all for civility when it's reciprocal, but I will not tolerant having PC imposed on me. Civility and PC are not the same thing.
However, they share many of the same facets, at least at the beginning. Would you eliminate many of the things that make courtesy possible in the name of ridding the world of(your interpretation of) PC? Isn't that a little bit like killing all carbon based life-forms(including yourself) because one of them was mean to you once?
** spoiler omitted **
I wanted to FB status message that yesterday afternoon, but I got a condescending look from my gal, so I thank you for giving me the opportunity. =)
EDIT: I'm using condescending correctly, right? I don't want to marginalize its intended definition. Political correctness and all that being tossed around this thread. :P
** spoiler omitted **
You are very welcome. It is my sincere pleasure. *bows*
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I was enjoying this thread and looks like it will get locked soon... because of the pointless back and forth....
guys can you take the bickering elsewhere please :-).
Lets get back to meat or cheese of this thread.
Duly noted 8th Dwarf, and my apologize for my part in it.
No problems mate :-)
Take a look at the link to the Monty Python sketch I added in the edit to my previous post and have a laugh.
Always one of my favorite MP sketchs! Thanks I needed a laugh. :D
Lynora, Moorluck, Freehold DM, Studpuffin, Ewan (I hope I didn't miss anyone):
Thanks, folks. I know it's all part of life, but that doesn't make it any easier to cope with when it happens. :P
And the mirror waving frantically from the edge of the cliff.
"Hey you guyssssss!"
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I wanted to FB status message that yesterday afternoon, but I got a condescending look from my gal, so I thank you for giving me the opportunity. =)
EDIT: I'm using condescending correctly, right? I don't want to marginalize its intended definition. Political correctness and all that being tossed around this thread. :P
** spoiler omitted **
You are very welcome. It is my sincere pleasure. *bows*
** spoiler omitted **
I'll expect to see many links to it in the near future. :P
However, they share many of the same facets, at least at the beginning. Would you eliminate many of the things that make courtesy possible in the name of ridding the world of(your interpretation of) PC? Isn't that a little bit like killing all carbon based life-forms(including yourself) because one of them was mean to you once?
That's a bit of a strawman, isn't it?
However, they share many of the same facets, at least at the beginning. Would you eliminate many of the things that make courtesy possible in the name of ridding the world of(your interpretation of) PC? Isn't that a little bit like killing all carbon based life-forms(including yourself) because one of them was mean to you once?That's a bit of a strawman, isn't it?
I'd rather say it's a man chewing on a stalk of straw than an man composed of straw. It's not a perfect argument, mind, but I still put the spirit of the question to you if not the situation itself.
Lynora, Moorluck, Freehold DM, Studpuffin, Ewan (I hope I didn't miss anyone):
Thanks, folks. I know it's all part of life, but that doesn't make it any easier to cope with when it happens. :P
I've been in a similiar situation, several times. It never got any easier.