Your wife can drink outta MY canteen.
You gotta get tuff'd up.
We're in Texas, after all.
There's some toughening that's not worth it to me. And I hope you have plenty of back-up canteens, in case it gets worth at the end of the week!
...If a male character's sexuality wouldn't be considered relevant in a particular artistic context, why would a female character's sexuality be relevant in that same context?I kinda think most everyone is in agreement with that.
A question then: Drow society is primarily matriarchal and decadently sensual. If drow women dress provocatively -- because of social expectations, or to manipulate the males, or as a sign of their confidence/power, or whatever -- is it still cheesecake? What if the males are also similarly depicted?
Wow... I don't even know where to begin about the drow. I find the whole idea that the only (to my knowledge) matriarchal culture in typical D&D worlds is (a) evil, and (b) composed of over-sexed, violent sadists who dominate and enslave the male members of their society to be moderately repellent. I think it plays into the notion that 'women in positions of power' = 'evil', along with the idea that female sexuality in combination with power is evil.
All that said, I think a lot of the fantasy art around drow certainly is 'cheesecake' in that drow women are sexualized in contexts where male characters of other races would not be.
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...If a male character's sexuality wouldn't be considered relevant in a particular artistic context, why would a female character's sexuality be relevant in that same context?I kinda think most everyone is in agreement with that.
A question then: Drow society is primarily matriarchal and decadently sensual. If drow women dress provocatively -- because of social expectations, or to manipulate the males, or as a sign of their confidence/power, or whatever -- is it still cheesecake? What if the males are also similarly depicted?
Wow... I don't even know where to begin about the drow. I find the whole idea that the only (to my knowledge) matriarchal culture in typical D&D worlds is (a) evil, and (b) composed of over-sexed, violent sadists who dominate and enslave the male members of their society to be moderately repellent. I think it plays into the notion that 'women in positions of power' = 'evil', along with the idea that female sexuality in combination with power is evil.
All that said, I think a lot of the fantasy art around drow certainly is 'cheesecake' in that drow women are sexualized in contexts where male characters of other races would not be.
Well there is always another option if you dislike it so much.
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I think the whole skimpy outfits, "unrealistic" armor on women is the exact same thing as the scarred WoW armor looking dude. Generally, and I know that I am not speaking for everyone here, men want to imagine themselves as Badass and deadly. Many women want to imagine themselves as sexy, seductive, and even more deadly.
One the first things my wife does when she rolls up a new PC is describe how sexy she is. And from what I've seen on these boards she's not really alone in that regard.
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...If a male character's sexuality wouldn't be considered relevant in a particular artistic context, why would a female character's sexuality be relevant in that same context?I kinda think most everyone is in agreement with that.
A question then: Drow society is primarily matriarchal and decadently sensual. If drow women dress provocatively -- because of social expectations, or to manipulate the males, or as a sign of their confidence/power, or whatever -- is it still cheesecake? What if the males are also similarly depicted?
I think it plays into the notion that 'women in positions of power' = 'evil', along with the idea that female sexuality in combination with power is evil.
All that said, I think a lot of the fantasy art around drow certainly is 'cheesecake' in that drow women are sexualized in contexts where male characters of other races would not be.
Really? You think that's what it is? Who has that notion? I'm just curious, cause I always saw it as Evil=Seductive, which is a trope as old as time.
And I'm pretty sure Drow men are sexualized as much as the women.
And I know, you'll say "I said males of other races."
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Bettie Page? :)Actually that is a perfect description. Thank you!
-Idle
I find she is almost always a good answer for topics like this. :)
Ahhh Betty
Wrong Bettie but thanks for playing. :)
Try this Bettie
...Drow society is primarily matriarchal and decadently sensual. If drow women dress provocatively -- because of social expectations, or to manipulate the males, or as a sign of their confidence/power, or whatever -- is it still cheesecake? What if the males are also similarly depicted?Wow... I don't even know where to begin about the drow. I find the whole idea that the only (to my knowledge) matriarchal culture in typical D&D worlds is (a) evil, and (b) composed of over-sexed, violent sadists who dominate and enslave the male members of their society to be moderately repellent. I think it plays into the notion that 'women in positions of power' = 'evil', along with the idea that female sexuality in combination with power is evil.
All that said, I think a lot of the fantasy art around drow certainly is 'cheesecake' in that drow women are sexualized in contexts where male characters of other races would not be.
I'm fully in agreement that women rulers and matriarchal societies are waaaaaaay under-represented. I also agree that drow are sadistic and overly-violent, and that male drow are under-represented in "beefcake" art. But... since they are the bad guys, when do they stop being just bad guys and become representative of all women in power? When does their in-your-face sexuality become representative of all powerful women? I'm of the opinion that highly-sexed societies are fine as long as there are reasons for it other than just for the readers'/players' titillation.
I think it plays into the notion that 'women in positions of power' = 'evil', along with the idea that female sexuality in combination with power is evil.All that said, I think a lot of the fantasy art around drow certainly is 'cheesecake' in that drow women are sexualized in contexts where male characters of other races would not be.
Really? You think that's what it is? Who has that notion? I'm just curious, cause I always saw it as Evil=Seductive, which is a trope as old as time.
And I'm pretty sure Drow men are sexualized as much as the women.
And I know, you'll say "I said males of other races."
Whole books have been written on the subject of how female sexuality, especially in combination with power, is viewed as evil. See also 'femme fatale'.
I honestly don't know what portrayal of drow males is generally like. These days, I actively avoid products that contain art or text relating to the drow. They don't exist in my game world, so I have no need to know more about them than I learned in the initial write up I read that prompted my immediate "WTF??" reaction. So my experience is limited to what I come across accidentally, which (whether it's typical or not) has been pretty focused on drow women.
Most women I know fall into that as well including myself. Not all of course.
Really? Huh...I mean, most women I know do too, but I thought maybe I was just weird, lol.
And definitely Lynora. What's the point of adventuring if you can't do it with style? ^_-
As for the drow...believe it or not, despite my name, I'm not a huge fan of the drow (the name does come from them, but it's for different reasons). I'm not big on the whole "only major matriarchal society is evil" thing either, and I very much wish that there were more matriarchal ones out there. I like to think that all elven society is matriarchal, drow just make a tyranny out of it.
That said...drow society isn't matriarchal so much as psychob*!**iarchal. It's only a problem because they're like...the only one in most settings. I mean...if we looked at patriarchal society solely through the lens of orc or hobgoblin or gnoll or whatnot society, it would look pretty horrible too.
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I think it plays into the notion that 'women in positions of power' = 'evil', along with the idea that female sexuality in combination with power is evil.All that said, I think a lot of the fantasy art around drow certainly is 'cheesecake' in that drow women are sexualized in contexts where male characters of other races would not be.
Really? You think that's what it is? Who has that notion? I'm just curious, cause I always saw it as Evil=Seductive, which is a trope as old as time.
And I'm pretty sure Drow men are sexualized as much as the women.
And I know, you'll say "I said males of other races."
Whole books have been written on the subject of how female sexuality, especially in combination with power, is viewed as evil. See also 'femme fatale'.
I honestly don't know what portrayal of drow males is generally like. These days, I actively avoid products that contain art or text relating to the drow. They don't exist in my game world, so I have no need to know more about them than I learned in the initial write up I read that prompted my immediate "WTF??" reaction. So my experience is limited to what I come across accidentally, which (whether it's typical or not) has been pretty focused on drow women.
Whole books have been written on a variety of topics, not all of them really hold weight.
As for femme fatale, through out history there have been women who have used their sexuality to get what they wanted, so often that they coined a phrase for it. Cleopatra springs to mind for an example of a femme fatale, hell she brought about the end of an empire with her beauty and sexuality. Yet many women regard her as an icon of femininity, why?
Sexuality, both male and female, has been used throughout time to gain what was desired. Men and women both will accent their best features in order to be more desired. A man will suck in his gut and square his shoulders, a woman will adjust herself so as to make her breast seem firmer, all so we can get what we want, be it a room with a view, out of a ticket, or just an attractive persons phone number.
"Cheesecake" isn't an attack on women, it's a fantasized image of what many want to imagine themselves as, sexy and powerful. And I have no hard time picturing women as both.
Bettie Page? :)Actually that is a perfect description. Thank you!
-Idle
I find she is almost always a good answer for topics like this. :)
Ahhh BettyWrong Bettie but thanks for playing. :)
Try this Bettie
I'd so rule 34 Bettie Page.
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Most women I know fall into that as well including myself. Not all of course.Really? Huh...I mean, most women I know do too, but I thought maybe I was just weird, lol.
And definitely Lynora. What's the point of adventuring if you can't do it with style? ^_-
As for the drow...believe it or not, despite my name, I'm not a huge fan of the drow (the name does come from them, but it's for different reasons). I'm not big on the whole "only major matriarchal society is evil" thing either, and I very much wish that there were more matriarchal ones out there. I like to think that all elven society is matriarchal, drow just make a tyranny out of it.
That said...drow society isn't matriarchal so much as psychob&@~#iarchal. It's only a problem because they're like...the only one in most settings. I mean...if we looked at patriarchal society solely through the lens of orc or hobgoblin or gnoll or whatnot society, it would look pretty horrible too.
Pretty much the way I've always seen it. The Drow are a perversion of everything elvish. Where elves have a benevolent queen, drow have a crazy tyrant. Elves have long been depicted as beautiful, sensual, and subtle. Drow are vulgar and crude in their sexuality.
Whole books have been written on a variety of topics, not all of them really hold weight.
I provided the link as a way of pointing out that the equation of female sexuality with evil is hardly a new concept, and that if you really want to know about it, there are plenty of sources for you to consult without my diverting this whole thread into a Feminism 101 level lecture. :) It's a topic I find fascinating, but I expect a detailed exploration of it wouldn't be either appropriate or welcome here.
As for femme fatale, through out history there have been women who have used their sexuality to get what they wanted, so often that they coined a phrase for it. Cleopatra springs to mind for an example of a femme fatale, hell she brought about the end of an empire with her beauty and sexuality. Yet many women regard her as an icon of femininity, why?
Sexuality, both male and female, has been used throughout time to gain what was desired. Men and women both will accent their best features in order to be more desired. A man will suck in his gut and square his shoulders, a woman will adjust herself so as to make her breast seem firmer, all so we can get what we want, be it a room with a view, out of a ticket, or just an attractive persons phone number.
Again, I provided that link as an example of how women's sexuality, especially when used as an expression of or a tool to gain power, is commonly considered 'evil' in society. The most relevant quote from the article in question: "The femme fatale was a common figure in the European Middle Ages, often portraying the dangers of unbridled female sexuality."
Are you saying that you don't believe female sexuality has ever been equated with evil in society, or ... what? I'm confused, at this point.
"Cheesecake" isn't an attack on women, it's a fantasized image of what many want to imagine themselves as, sexy and powerful. And I have no hard time picturing women as both.
I don't think I've said that 'cheesecake' art is an attack on women, and I'm not sure where in my definition of 'cheesecake' you got that idea. I think *some* cheesecake art objectifies women in harmful ways, and I'd probably include many examples of fantasy art involving the drow in that category. I hope that's a clear enough distinction.
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Lindy, you say that you don't want to reduce this thread into a Feminism 101 class, but you do tend to try and turn it into that. In the past I have seen you make very aggressive generalizations about many of us here. You've pointed out that, in your words, "most" of us are sexist. You'll forgive me, or not I couldn't care less, for not bending over backwards to accommodate your opinions or viewpoints.
That said, you are just as entitled to your opinions and they are just as valid as anyone elses here. I get it, you don't like when you feel that women are portrayed as "eye candy", I also get that you either cannot, or will not accept a jest in good nature from your fellow posters.
Maybe I haven't given your argument here a fair shake, I've tried to explain that the notion of "Powerful Female=Evil" is not, in my beliefs the motivation behind the whole drow argument.
Does that notion exsist in the world? Yes. Is it the driving factor behind creations in a fantasy game? I don't really think so. Not every piece of cheesy art or evil NPC is an indication of sexism. It is my belief that you simply read to much into it.
Forget that, look at that sword mounted in the middle of that rack!
Lindy, you say that you don't want to reduce this thread into a Feminism 101 class, but you do tend to try and turn it into that. In the past I have seen you make very aggressive generalizations about many of us here. You've pointed out that, in your words, "most" of us are sexist. You'll forgive me, or not I couldn't care less, for not bending over backwards to accommodate your opinions or viewpoints.
It's Lindisty, not Lindy. And... Wait, what? Where have I said that most people here in these forums are sexist? I've made comments about how sexism can be a problem in gaming culture, and I've called out specific examples of sexist behavior or commentary here, but I honestly cannot recall ever saying that most people on these forums are sexist. I'm sorry for having spoken in ways that led to that interpretation, because it's not reflective of what I think.
That said, you are just as entitled to your opinions and they are just as valid as anyone elses here. I get it, you don't like when you feel that women are portrayed as "eye candy", I also get that you either cannot, or will not accept a jest in good nature from your fellow posters.
Maybe I haven't given your argument here a fair shake, I've tried to explain that the notion of "Powerful Female=Evil" is not, in my beliefs the motivation behind the whole drow argument.
Does that notion exsist in the world? Yes. Is it the driving factor behind creations in a fantasy game? I don't really think so. Not every piece of cheesy art or evil NPC is an indication of sexism. It is my belief that you simply read to much into it.
I didn't say that notion was the 'driving force' behind the creation of the drow. I don't like the drow because they are reflective of the common cultural notion that female sexuality (particularly when combined with power) is dangerous and/or evil.
I thought you were questioning the existence of that cultural trope, which is why I provided the links. Reading this, though, it seems that you thought I was saying I thought the creators of the drow were deliberately playing on that cultural trope. I don't think that, necessarily. I don't know enough about how they came about to make any statement about the creators' intentions one way or the other.
I have apparently made a bad impression on you, and I'm not sure how to change that. I'll take one more shot at a clear statement on this issue, and then I'll bow out lest I wear out my welcome here: I do NOT believe that every piece of cheesecake art is an indication of sexism. I think that *some* cheesecake art objectifies women in harmful ways, and I think that the prevalence of art that sexualizes women in contexts where it would not sexualize men is reflective of a male-dominated gaming culture that can be sexist.
I'm not sure I can be much clearer than that, and honestly, if you still find that to be an offensive opinion, I think it probably best if you and I just ignore each other from here on out.
Ewan! About time you made it here. ;-)
I've been busy writing a short story.
Nice to see a civil spin off dicussion on art and gaming.
:)
I think the whole skimpy outfits, "unrealistic" armor on women is the exact same thing as the scarred WoW armor looking dude. Generally, and I know that I am not speaking for everyone here, men want to imagine themselves as Badass and deadly. Many women want to imagine themselves as sexy, seductive, and even more deadly.
One the first things my wife does when she rolls up a new PC is describe how sexy she is. And from what I've seen on these boards she's not really alone in that regard.
That is not the case with my wife, nor is it true of any of several women with whom I game.
Female fans of cheesecake are not alone, but neither are female critics of the stuff. The same is true for male gamers.
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I think the whole skimpy outfits, "unrealistic" armor on women is the exact same thing as the scarred WoW armor looking dude. Generally, and I know that I am not speaking for everyone here, men want to imagine themselves as Badass and deadly. Many women want to imagine themselves as sexy, seductive, and even more deadly.
One the first things my wife does when she rolls up a new PC is describe how sexy she is. And from what I've seen on these boards she's not really alone in that regard.
That is not the case with my wife, nor is it true of any of several women with whom I game.
Female fans of cheesecake are not alone, but neither are female critics of the stuff. The same is true for male gamers.
Fair enough. Everybody has different taste. Where things often go sour is when one side or the other feels pressured to change. Some people may feel that cheesecake art puts pressure on them to portray female characters in ways they're not comfortable with. Other people may feel a wee bit gun-shy after one too many confrontations of 'feminism: ur doin it wrong'. (Just to be perfectly clear, that is a humerous exaggeration intended to make a point and is in no way intended to characterize the responses of any particular poster now or previously.)
What one person finds demeaning, another may find empowering and vice versa. Neither one is wrong per se. It's just different ways of looking at the world. The thing is, the perception of what is and isn't cheesecake seems to be highly colored by those views. And Amby had a good point about the line between cheesecake and honest depiction when it comes to characters of certain archetypes. It gets really blurry really fast.
I think the definition of cheesecake being sexuality overemphasized when inappropriate to the situation depicted, and putting the subject in a passive, yet sexual pose comes really close to it. Much of Boris Vallejos art exemplifies it IMO, but there are several D&D pieces as well.
I´m getting the impression that many women do not object to sexuality in RPG books per se, but the depiction of women in either the "helpless princess" pose or the "evil seductress" trope. It seems to me that in many published adventures women are either serving wenches or evil witches bent on getting men to obey through sexuality, if they are depicted as attractive. Why is it that men exercise their power through violence and women through sexuality when portrayed in games? This is not always the case, but women in positions of power are often depicted or described as emphasing their sexuality, so much so that there are players attacking any attractive woman NPC on sight, as they are convinced she will be evil anyway.
Some female gamers I know do indeed portray they characters as being attractive, but also as being very self-determined, not the passive window dressing they are shown as sometimes. Some others could not care less about that aspect, however. And many scorn the illustrations not so much for the sexy depiction, but really for the unrealistic portrayal (the proverbial chain mail bikini comes to mind.
Stefan
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I´m getting the impression that many women do not object to sexuality in RPG books per se, but the depiction of women in either the "helpless princess" pose or the "evil seductress" trope.
I'd wager most women, and many guys, really would just like a healthier spread of the cheesecake-practical spectrum.
Male characters get a whole wide range of non-sexualized looks they're "allowed" to have. Female characters tend to get saddled with the expectation that they have to be attractive, or rather, have sex appeal. It's not rare to see a male "badass" who is not really drawn to have attractiveness as a primary feature. It can be an incredibly rare thing for female "badass" characters. Dude can get to wear unflattering armor. Lady rarely gets to put that stuff on. Dude can get badass scars. Lady tends to get stuck with light, dainty ones at most(thanks Mass Effect!).
Then there's the double standard where guys get all uncomfortable about a male showing off quite a bit of skin. See that one Dragon cover with the Greek god type on it, or that male circus stripper sorcerer or whatever he was in Crown of the Kobold King. People freaked over that, but don't bat an eye when female characters strut around at the same level of exposure.
It's just when things are so uneven that people tend to get sore.
If OP is really going to go through every book and tally the results, I'd be interested in seeing how it all adds up.
Fair enough. Everybody has different taste. Where things often go sour is when one side or the other feels pressured to change. Some people may feel that cheesecake art puts pressure on them to portray female characters in ways they're not comfortable with. Other people may feel a wee bit gun-shy after one too many confrontations of 'feminism: ur doin it wrong'. (Just to be perfectly clear, that is a humerous exaggeration intended to make a point and is in no way intended to characterize the responses of any particular poster now or previously.)
What one person finds demeaning, another may find empowering and vice versa. Neither one is wrong per se. It's just different ways of looking at the world. The thing is, the perception of what is and isn't cheesecake seems to be highly colored by those views. And Amby had a good point about the line between cheesecake and honest depiction when it comes to characters of certain archetypes. It gets really blurry really fast.
Feminism? Naw, I don't think so! I find modern 'gender feminism' to be preposterous.
My objections to the overabundance of cheesecake in some areas of gaming art are primarily aesthetic in nature.
I have seen some rather mysoginistic or 'sexist' things written by certain cheesecake champions- but I do not imagine that most fans of the stuff have such unpleasant attitudes about the fairer sex.
Male characters get a whole wide range of non-sexualized looks they're "allowed" to have. Female characters tend to get saddled with the expectation that they have to be attractive, or rather, have sex appeal. It's not rare to see a male "badass" who is not really drawn to have attractiveness as a primary feature. It can be an incredibly rare thing for female "badass" characters. Dude can get to wear unflattering armor. Lady rarely gets to put that stuff on. Dude can get badass scars. Lady tends to get stuck with light, dainty ones at most(thanks Mass Effect!).
Yes, I agree with all of this.
Then there's the double standard where guys get all uncomfortable about a male showing off quite a bit of skin. See that one Dragon cover with the Greek god type on it, or that male circus stripper sorcerer or whatever he was in Crown of the Kobold King. People freaked over that, but don't bat an eye when female characters strut around at the same level of exposure.
I've seen few examples of genuine 'beefcake' in D&D art. There were some underdressed barbarians here and there, but those were rarely sexualized- just Tarzan or mock-Conan types. Sometimes a big dude strangling a giant snake is just a big dude strangling a giant snake.
Now, if the books were actually splashed with glossy art of men depicted in the same sort of supposedly 'sexy' outfits and poses so often used for females...eww! NO, just no.
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Ah, here it is!
Pretty low key to be honest. Can't believe people actually got uncomfortable about it, but they did.
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Ah, here it is!
Pretty low key to be honest. Can't believe people actually got uncomfortable about it, but they did.
yeah I honestly never did understand what all the up roar was about. I mean the movie 300 looked just like that just about.
I wrote a huge post but then I closed the wrong tab :-(
Not finding men sexy - what is the sexualised look for men?
The guy in the sample Mikaze gave looked very heroic.. buff + sword and a cocky smile.... I cant see anything wrong with it. Then again my Major was in the Classics and Ancient history. So I understand the Greek obsession with the perfect body. I am guessing he is Apollo or some kind of sun god driving his fiery chariot.
EDIT: Is the uncomfortableness that was attached to the picture more about homophobia then men being offended by a sexualized image that women may find attractive? Were women offend by that picture?
yeah I honestly never did understand what all the up roar was about. I mean the movie 300 looked just like that just about.Ah, here it is!
Pretty low key to be honest. Can't believe people actually got uncomfortable about it, but they did.
Yes the 300 was very camp... Then again sexuality in ancient Greece was very very very complicated and in Sparta was twice as complicated as the rest of the Hellenistic world. The Spartans were thought of as strange as the sexual relationships between men in the army was one of equals, where as in Athens and most other city states (with the notable exception of Thebes) there was a clear line between dominant and subservient partners.
Ah, here it is!
Pretty low key to be honest. Can't believe people actually got uncomfortable about it, but they did.
They did? I really can´t see what is there to be upset about. From what I recall, sportsmen in ancient greece competed naked. Honestly, if I see some modern-day sportsdresses on athletes (either male or female), they are not naked - technically. But if I see some of the skin-tight suits or if I look at tennis or beach volleyball (and there especially the female athletes), whose clothes are obviously tailored to show off the well-toned body they mostly have, and also do have cuts that can only be explained as intentionally being meant to be sexy, then competing naked seems not that a big difference anymore. And nobody complains about that, as least not publicly. So, painting a vague Greek-looking god on the cover, naked from the waist up, bothers people? I do hope those folks never visit an exhibition of classical art (or travel to Florence, seeing David on a public place, stark naked) as they might develop serious brain damage. *shaking head* Now, comparing a mag cover to David is a big stretch, but still, complaining about that one is ridiculous.
Stefan
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EDIT: Is the uncomfortableness that was attached to the picture more about homophobia then men being offended by a sexualized image that women may find attractive? Were women offend by that picture?
That's likely the heart of it right there. No complaints from women that I know of.
IIRC, some of the exact complaints were "it made me feel uncomfortable to be seen carrying it to the checkout lane in public." *
Kind of wonder how this product avoided that complaint. Lower visibility I guess?
*It's like they never heard of the old tactic of hiding it in a stack of other purchases. You know, National Geographic, Time, Guns & Ammo, Soldier of Fortune, Hard Men, Bulge, Throb, etc.
EDIT: Is the uncomfortableness that was attached to the picture more about homophobia then men being offended by a sexualized image that women may find attractive? Were women offend by that picture?
That's likely the heart of it right there. No complaints from women that I know of.
IIRC, some of the exact complaints were "it made me feel uncomfortable to be seen carrying it to the checkout lane in public."
Kind of wonder how this product avoided that complaint. Lower visibility I guess?
Wow that says a lot about the person that made the complaint....
So - can men be portrayed in a way that is sexualised that would appeal to women and not be the Hugh Jackman tough guy with the shirt off kind of guy. The art on the book cover in that last link looked like the art I would see on the wall of a gay friend of mine and judging from my wife's reaction not appealing to women at all.
I am trying to work out how you can sexualise men in a way that is appealing to women without emphasising their "masculinity". My wife loves Colin Firth and Alan Rickman (She's kicking me out if they ever knock on the door)both are very masculine yet I cant see the same type of sexualisation of them that you see in cheesecake art would appeal to women.
So in that case is the sexualisation of men just as prevalent but very different to the way women are portrayed... As men for various reasons both good and bad are not as concerned with the masculine body image and thus reactions (with the exception of the homophobic example above) more of a "meh" than one of anger at unrealistic expectations of manliness constantly forced upon men by society.
I´m getting the impression that many women do not object to sexuality in RPG books per se, but the depiction of women in either the "helpless princess" pose or the "evil seductress" trope.
Yes. A thousand times yes. What you say here sums up my position exactly, so I'll just cosign this. It's not about wanting to eliminate sexualized images of women from fantasy art, it's about wanting to see more diversity in how both women AND men are portrayed in fantasy art.
It seems to me that in many published adventures women are either serving wenches or evil witches bent on getting men to obey through sexuality, if they are depicted as attractive. Why is it that men exercise their power through violence and women through sexuality when portrayed in games?
Thank you for noticing this and for asking the question.
The cake is a lie!shows up with a knife and fork
Someone said there'd be cake?
Eet is no lie! Eet jus' takez a while to cook!
Ingredients
Crust:
* 1 3/4 cups graham cracker crumbs
* 3 tablespoons light brown sugar
* 1/2 teaspoon ground cinnamon
* 1 stick melted salted butter
*
Filling:
* 3 (8-ounce) packages cream cheese, at room temperature
* 1 (15-ounce) can pureed pumpkin
* 3 eggs plus 1 egg yolk
* 1/4 cup sour cream
* 1 1/2 cups sugar
* 1/2 teaspoon ground cinnamon
* 1/8 teaspoon fresh ground nutmeg
* 1/8 teaspoon ground cloves
* 2 tablespoon all-purpose flour
* 1 teaspoon vanilla extract
Directions
Preheat oven to 350 degrees F.
For crust:
In medium bowl, combine crumbs, sugar and cinnamon. Add melted butter. Press down flat into a 9-inch springform pan. Set aside.
For filling:
Beat cream cheese until smooth. Add pumpkin puree, eggs, egg yolk, sour cream, sugar and the spices. Add flour and vanilla. Beat together until well combined.
Pour into crust. Spread out evenly and place oven for 1 hour. Remove from the oven and let sit for 15 minutes. Cover with plastic wrap and refrigerate for 4 hours.
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I think the whole skimpy outfits, "unrealistic" armor on women is the exact same thing as the scarred WoW armor looking dude. Generally, and I know that I am not speaking for everyone here, men want to imagine themselves as Badass and deadly. Many women want to imagine themselves as sexy, seductive, and even more deadly.
One the first things my wife does when she rolls up a new PC is describe how sexy she is. And from what I've seen on these boards she's not really alone in that regard.
That is not the case with my wife, nor is it true of any of several women with whom I game.
Female fans of cheesecake are not alone, but neither are female critics of the stuff. The same is true for male gamers.
Note the bolded words. As I said, not everyone feels this way, but enough do that it is noticeable.
Question, when your wife describes her character does she go out of her way to describe her as unattractive? Or does she use words such as beautiful, or attractive? How does one describe their RPG hero/heroine?
Believe it or not, I'm not a big fan of much of the art I've seen depicting women in stripper wear, just as I am not a big fan of the overdone WoW armor and giant swords. But I believe that it has less to do with sexism than an exaggerated view of larger than life fantasy heroes.
It seems to me that in many published adventures women are .....evil witches bent on getting men to obey through sexuality.....So....kind of like my wife? :)
Err...well, thats too much information for me...
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In all seriousness, though...
"Cheesecake" art in games is there mostly because the greater portion of the game's fans are male and, as Madison Avenue has been telling us for at least the last 60 years, "sex sells". Is it right? Probably not. But you're also not going to rewire three generations of brainwashing the masses anytime soon. Especially if the masses don't want to be rewired.
Now, as for the artists, I appreciate artists that are able to capture the beauty inherent in what they draw. And, when hired to draw fantasy adventurers, most artists are going to go to the style that defined the genre of folks like Frank Frazetta, Boris Vallejo, Julie Bell and Brom. They all try to show people at the height of physical perfection, on both sides of the sexes.
Is some art more "sexist" or "cartoonish" than others? Yes. But that is more about style than any intent to denigrate a group (in most cases).
It all comes down to this: if you want the freedom to do and say and live however you want in this country, you have to accept that your neighbor may want to do or say or live differently than you. As long as neither of your beliefs threaten the safety or well-being of others, you *have* to find it in your heart to accept the differences, else you are working against the liberties you enjoy.
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I´m getting the impression that many women do not object to sexuality in RPG books per se, but the depiction of women in either the "helpless princess" pose or the "evil seductress" trope.Yes. A thousand times yes. What you say here sums up my position exactly, so I'll just cosign this. It's not about wanting to eliminate sexualized images of women from fantasy art, it's about wanting to see more diversity in how both women AND men are portrayed in fantasy art.
It seems to me that in many published adventures women are either serving wenches or evil witches bent on getting men to obey through sexuality, if they are depicted as attractive. Why is it that men exercise their power through violence and women through sexuality when portrayed in games?Thank you for noticing this and for asking the question.
On point one Lindisity, I agree. I like to see diversity and depth to characters of both genders. Lord knows I try my best to do this in my home games, but that does include tossing in even the damsel in distress. After all not every woman can be my ideal of strong and beautiful, just at home on the ballroom floor as they are the battlefield.
As for the question that Stebehil brought up, the only answer I can hazard is that maybe it's because traditionally men have, more often, resorted to violence and brute force to meet their end, where women have used their wiles and charms to gain the same, and to a greater degree of success without the collateral damage that all that war brings.
I´m getting the impression that many women do not object to sexuality in RPG books per se, but the depiction of women in either the "helpless princess" pose or the "evil seductress" trope.Yes. A thousand times yes. What you say here sums up my position exactly, so I'll just cosign this. It's not about wanting to eliminate sexualized images of women from fantasy art, it's about wanting to see more diversity in how both women AND men are portrayed in fantasy art.
It seems to me that in many published adventures women are either serving wenches or evil witches bent on getting men to obey through sexuality, if they are depicted as attractive. Why is it that men exercise their power through violence and women through sexuality when portrayed in games?Thank you for noticing this and for asking the question.
I am sure that you are not advocating that women should not be cast as evil or the BBEG in games as women can be evil in real life (the gender ratio of who commits the most evil acts is not relavant to the argument (although I suspect acts of evil are more about power and opportunity than gender)...
More that the context in which they take that role should not be based solely on the sexuality of the antagonist and should explore the other factors make the antagonist evil.
Now I am playing the devils advocate - in relation to Drow Society. In previous editions of D&D Female Drow were inherently evil, more physically powerful and divinely chosen over their male counterparts and that as a result the Matriarchal Society would mirror any other inherently evil race where one gender is both more powerful and holds monopoly over divine power.
Orcs though far less intelligent are one of the many male dominated races that are perfect for comparison. Both races dominate and repress the "weaker" gender through sexual domination, brutality, and murder.
I wonder why it is more acceptable for the male evil races to be the sexual aggressor, is it worth considering this when using them in the light that it reinforces a stereotype and harmful behaviours?
Or is because they are both evil monsters and gender should not matter and that the actions of the players in relation to the inner "demons" they face are what we are actually looking to explore?
shows up with a knife and fork
Someone said there'd be cake?
Silly zombie cake is for the living. Besides arn't you getting enough brain food.
Cheesecake is a beautiful tradition of fantasy art. =)
I would say cheesecake is a pretty cheap way to get attention to an image, typically a front page of something, in a desperate competition for customer attention. Interior art doesn't have to be as clearly cheesecake, since people have usually bought the book already then, but often is anyway.
We play RPGs. We imagine worlds, storylines, conflicts, emotions, monsters and villains that inspire us. Fantasy IS escapism, almost by definition. And in that escapism also lies that we imagine ourselves better. Today, as viewed by the media, shallow physical beauty is the alpha and omega of the worth of a human being, and thus, we imagine ourselves to be anorectic, mega-boobed freaks, or musclebound beyond what Mr Universe would consider overpumped. Sad, but true.
Do this: Next time you sit down to play, think about what your character really looks like. Compare his or her looks to some actor or other you can think of. Think of what FAULTS this character has in his or her appearance.
It is the symtom, not the disease. Cheesecake is fun and wholesome (mostly), but the reasons why it's there are sad. And next time you make a character, try to imagine her slightly overweight.
Then there's the double standard where guys get all uncomfortable about a male showing off quite a bit of skin. See that one Dragon cover with the Greek god type on it, or that male circus stripper sorcerer or whatever he was in Crown of the Kobold King. People freaked over that, but don't bat an eye when female characters strut around at the same level of exposure.
I've seen few examples of genuine 'beefcake' in D&D art. There were some underdressed barbarians here and there, but those were rarely sexualized- just Tarzan or mock-Conan types. Sometimes a big dude strangling a giant snake is just a big dude strangling a giant snake.
Now, if the books were actually splashed with glossy art of men depicted in the same sort of supposedly 'sexy' outfits and poses so often used for females...eww! NO, just no.
AWW c'mon you know that in modern society it's ok to look at very underdressed rippling muscled barbarians depicted in art.
Hell the govenator built his first 3 movies off of it.back to the main topic, I don't see anything wrong with women being portraid as beautiful, sexual, seductrisses because that "historicly" has been their strength.
For every Hippolyta,Antiope,Bodecia,Walks-far-woman and others there have been dozens of belle boyds(famous confederate spy) or elisabeth Van Louis(famous northern spy) Heck even reading the Bible some of the women in there are only noted for their beauty and nothing else.
It wasn't until recently that good looking men started even being allowed to be noticed for their looks. Other than "pretty boy floyd" name me any man that was noted for his apperance? Sure maybe this general or that statesman were handsome but that was an afterthought to their succes not the capstone like it has been for women.
Drow society makes sense in many ways if you look at the story as it is presented. Normal elves have a god, drow have a goddess, normal elves mate for life and have very slow repop rates, drow arn't concerned with lineage so orgy pits ala conan the barbarian are more common.
The drow Goddess used her beauty as a weapon against her mate so the drow women do the same as a means of honoring her also unless I am totally wrong here dosen't the black widow spider kill her male mate as well when she's finished with him? thus helping shape drow society.
I enjoy the drow for many reasons mostly because of their vast diffrence from normal tree hugging sunshine sucking counter parts.
On point one Lindisity, I agree. I like to see diversity and depth to characters of both genders. Lord knows I try my best to do this in my home games, but that does include tossing in even the damsel in distress. After all not every woman can be my ideal of strong and beautiful, just at home on the ballroom floor as they are the battlefield.I´m getting the impression that many women do not object to sexuality in RPG books per se, but the depiction of women in either the "helpless princess" pose or the "evil seductress" trope.Yes. A thousand times yes. What you say here sums up my position exactly, so I'll just cosign this. It's not about wanting to eliminate sexualized images of women from fantasy art, it's about wanting to see more diversity in how both women AND men are portrayed in fantasy art.
It seems to me that in many published adventures women are either serving wenches or evil witches bent on getting men to obey through sexuality, if they are depicted as attractive. Why is it that men exercise their power through violence and women through sexuality when portrayed in games?Thank you for noticing this and for asking the question.
Yay! A point of agreement! Thanks for acknowledging it.
As for the question that Stebehil brought up, the only answer I can hazard is that maybe it's because traditionally men have, more often, resorted to violence and brute force to meet their end, where women have used their wiles and charms to gain the same, and to a greater degree of success without the collateral damage that all that war brings.
Sure, but I'd like to examine that a little more closely. If we accept the idea that these tropes in RPGs (and fantasy art and/or literature) reflect stereotypical gender roles, is it too much of a stretch to posit that they also serve to perpetuate stereotypical gender roles? For many people, fitting into stereotypical gender roles doesn't pose a problem. For others, it does. I'm not attempting to place a value judgment about where anyone falls on that spectrum.
Personally, I acknowledge up front that I find stereotypical gender roles to be rigid and confining, and that I'd like to see more breadth of expression be acceptable in society as a whole. That preference is reflected in my preference for more diversity in RPG writing and fantasy art as well. I don't think it's wrong for RPG companies to cater to their mostly hetero-male audience, but I also don't feel it's out of place for those of us who aren't comfortable with the stereotypes being reflected and/or perpetuated by the products in question to make our discomfort known.
I wonder why it is more acceptable for the male evil races to be the sexual aggressor, is it worth considering this when using them in the light that it reinforces a stereotype and harmful behaviours?
I don´t think it is about aggression per se, it is about the way dominance is depicted. If the aggressor is male, he wields a bloody sword and has bulging muscles. If the aggressor is female, she wields a whip and is scantily clad, overemphasizing the sexual aspect. The way drow are depicted has come from a view that an evil matriarchial society has to rely on some form of sexuality, however perverted, to stay the way it is, as if women have no other instrument than sex to ensure dominance about others. This is the old "women are evil, and sex proves that" idea.
As you noted above, I´m not against women as BBEG. I love the "Evil Seelah" depicted in the GMG (I think), and it would be a loss to rule out the very idea of such characters. But I don´t want the stereotypical evil witch/priestess/sorceress showing off her "charms" permanently as a BBEG, at least not all the time. A Circe-like character sure has its place in gaming, but it should not be overdone.
Stefan
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Stupid boards ate my gorram post! >:/
ok here goes.
It's a valid desire Lindisity, and I myself can find myself agreeing with many points you raise. I would love to see more woman portrayed as less "eye candy" and more "eye blackener". It would certainly enrich the experience for a great many new players and enhance my enjoyment of the game. ;)
I don't want to see the old tropes go the way of the dodo however. I think there's room for all types of portrayals for both men and women, both in the writing, and the art.
I think,rightly or wrongly, that the old stereotypes persist because it's easier. It gives a person a standard, something familiar to expect. It gives them the idea that if most "fantasy gurlz" wear stripper wear, then the lady in the full plate armor wielding the greatsword must be a complete bad ass.
As a GM I try to use images that invoke a variety of feelings in players, from fear, to anger, and yes even lust. I happily use the evil seductress, the scantily clad huntress, the kind motherly Lady Mayor, and the virtuous Sisters of Steel* (And all their male counterparts) in my games.
EDIT: I would like to point out that I prefer the lady in the full plate myself, but I get that some don't.
I wonder why it is more acceptable for the male evil races to be the sexual aggressor, is it worth considering this when using them in the light that it reinforces a stereotype and harmful behaviours?I don´t think it is about aggression per se, it is about the way dominance is depicted. If the aggressor is male, he wields a bloody sword and has bulging muscles. If the aggressor is female, she wields a whip and is scantily clad, overemphasizing the sexual aspect. The way drow are depicted has come from a view that an evil matriarchial society has to rely on some form of sexuality, however perverted, to stay the way it is, as if women have no other instrument than sex to ensure dominance about others. This is the old "women are evil, and sex proves that" idea.
As you noted above, I´m not against women as BBEG. I love the "Evil Seelah" depicted in the GMG (I think), and it would be a loss to rule out the very idea of such characters. But I don´t want the stereotypical evil witch/priestess/sorceress showing off her "charms" permanently as a BBEG, at least not all the time. A Circe-like character sure has its place in gaming, but it should not be overdone.
Stefan
This.
(Also, if you keep posting stuff that so clearly gets across the points I try -- and apparently frequently fail-- to communicate, I'm gonna have to organize a Stebehil fan club or something.)