|
Until both the wizard and the summoner reach there max spells slots per level. Wizard only EVER gets 4 spells slots per level. Summoner gets 5.
As Dire Mongoose Suggests you need to revisit your math. A wizard can always use his boned object to cast haste, but likely doesn't because he has a ton of other interesting things to cast.
Also, when everyone is making 3-4 attacks per round and most martial characters have Boots of Speed haste isn't as powerful or needed.
|
|
Specialization, Bonded object and I, meet for coffee every so often to catch up.
I always thought Bonded Object was a Tea drinker.
But it's moot in that do you really need to use that many hastes in a given day?
If you do, then Pearl of Power (which is a bubble tea drinker of course) is feeling left out and slighted. As such she will only add to the wizard's side of this.
Well admittedly if you want to seriously start spamming haste the second level Ring of Wizardry in the hands of a summoner is going to be king as far as price / bonus haste/ day.
I am trying to think of a second level buff spell from any caster list that gives the wallop that haste gives.
This right here is the sort of narrow thinking that gets so frustrating in these conversations. It's entirely out of perspective. Haste is not a second level spell. Haste is a second level spell for Summoners, who are on a reduced spellcasting list. Because of this, it can't be compared to other second level spells, because it simply isn't a second level spell. Haste should be compared to other like-leveled spells and also compared to how well it fits the paradigm of the class casting it.
It should also be noted that spells changing levels when being migrated to limited casting classes isn't anything new, yet rarely sees much fuss.
Bards: Hideous Laughter (1st, normally 2nd), Charm Monster (3rd, normally 4th), Break Enchantment (4th, normally 5th), Dominate Person (4th, normally 5th), Legend Lore (4th, normally 6th), Irresistible Dance (6th, normally 8th)
Paladins: Lesser Restoration (1st level, normally 2nd), Mass Ghostbane Dirge (3rd, normally 5th), Break Enchantment (4th, normally 5th),
Rangers: Animal messenger (1st, normally 2nd), Delay Poison (1st, normally 2nd), Wind Wall (2nd, normally 3rd), Command Plants (3rd, normally 4th), Animal Growth (4th, normally 5th), Commune with Nature (4th, normally 5th)
Sean, I should see more fuss.
If a fighter got to make one attack each with three different weapons every round, and those weapons were selected as supposed equals off of a chart, and all of those weapons dealt one deee eight damage except the long sword which deals 2d6, the designers are functionally saying that the first attack made by every fighter every round must be with a long sword.
That's how I see haste on the summoner's list. It is miles above everything on the list. At 4th level, the summoner gets to know 2 spells. I can tell you with certainty what one of them is going to be on just about every character.
Of course they are going to choose it. Just like every fighter/paladin/barbarian that does melee is going to choose power attack, and every high dex melee rogue is going to get weapon finesse. They have a pet, and the pet needs buffs to be viable in the big boys' game.
You know what I am going to choose to memorize with just about every pet-druid I ever make? Barkskin, Greater Magic Fang and Animal Growth. Every. Time. I. Prepare. Spells. Too good to not have, no matter what I do.
And again, application. Some parties just benefit more from a spell. Monks will be your BFF if you spare them a Mage Armor every day. Doesn't mean Mage Armor is inherently broke. Slow is devastating against a bunch of low-will warrior types, but does next to nothing against casters. Shield beats magic missile, AND gives +4 to AC. Pretty amazing for a lv1 spell. Etc.
And sure, if "better than level-equivalent" is the criteria, then yes it is broken. Just like how magic missile is broken when you compare it to Erase.
Well admittedly if you want to seriously start spamming haste the second level Ring of Wizardry in the hands of a summoner is going to be king as far as price / bonus haste/ day.
Specialization, Bonded object and I, meet for coffee every so often to catch up.
I always thought Bonded Object was a Tea drinker.
But it's moot in that do you really need to use that many hastes in a given day?
If you do, then Pearl of Power (which is a bubble tea drinker of course) is feeling left out and slighted. As such she will only add to the wizard's side of this.
I'm not sure why, exactly, but Rings of Wizardry are priced way too high compared to Pearls of Power, particularly given that they are slotted items. The Wizard can have four level 3 Pearls of Power for less than the cost of a Ring of Wizardry II, and five of them for slightly more, and Summoners can't use Pearls of Power. Since the Ring of Wizardry will never give the Summoner more than 5 additional level 2 spells, and since the Wizard need not use all those Pearls on Haste, I'd call that a strong advantage for the Wizard.
|
|
The fact that wizards can draw upon other resources to exceed the number of castings of haste that a summoner can I will bow out of. My main point is that it shouldn't be a second level spell for anyone in my opinion, not when you compare it to other second levels spells across the board. I am trying to think of a second level buff spell from any caster list that gives the wallop that haste gives.
How about second level spell that grants +2 on almost all d20 rolls for 10 minutes/ level? I get more mileage out of this than haste because you can have it going all day long.
Or a couple third level spells that can totally trash most groups of enemies way beyond what a typical third level spell should?
Early entry spells are a significant part of 6 level spellcasting classes and have been for some time.
Or a couple third level spells that can totally trash most groups of enemies way beyond what a typical third level spell should?
Early entry spells are a significant part of 6 level spellcasting classes and have been for some time.
Note that a bard gets Fear and Confusion at the same time as a wizard -- at level 7.
Heroism is a good example, though.
My two cents: I'd be more up in arms about getting Haste early, except most of my experiences with 3.5 Haste have been fairly anticlimactic. Either our party fighter is fairly lame (so Hasting him is not terribly efficient) or it's hard for the fighters to make full attacks (e.g. there are lots of scattered enemies) or (in the best case scenario) it cuts down the fight time from 4 rounds to 3 rounds, or something like that.
|
|
I'm not sure why, exactly, but Rings of Wizardry are priced way too high compared to Pearls of Power, particularly given that they are slotted items. The Wizard can have four level 3 Pearls of Power for less than the cost of a Ring of Wizardry II, and five of them for slightly more, and Summoners can't use Pearls of Power. Since the Ring of Wizardry will never give the Summoner more than 5 additional level 2 spells, and since the Wizard need not use all those Pearls on Haste, I'd call that a strong advantage for the Wizard.
It's an exercise in silliness, not meant as a serious endeavor. If you want to get technical the 'KING' of haste is a transmuter wizard with pearls of power because he can get that 10th casting for 4k gold less...
Ring on a Summoner - 5 additional castings for 40,000gp = 8k each
Pearls on a Wizard - Flat 9k gp each extra casting
There are three main advantages to the Ring of Wizardry.
Whether that makes them worth the cost difference is questionable. It certainly puts the spontaneous at a disadvantage.
I'm not sure why, exactly, but Rings of Wizardry are priced way too high compared to Pearls of Power, particularly given that they are slotted items. The Wizard can have four level 3 Pearls of Power for less than the cost of a Ring of Wizardry II, and five of them for slightly more, and Summoners can't use Pearls of Power. Since the Ring of Wizardry will never give the Summoner more than 5 additional level 2 spells, and since the Wizard need not use all those Pearls on Haste, I'd call that a strong advantage for the Wizard.It's an exercise in silliness, not meant as a serious endeavor. If you want to get technical the 'KING' of haste is a transmuter wizard with pearls of power because he can get that 10th casting for 4k gold less...
Ring on a Summoner - 5 additional castings for 40,000gp = 8k each
Pearls on a Wizard - Flat 9k gp each extra castingThere are three main advantages to the Ring of Wizardry.
No action to use your additional castings. Pearls of power require a standard action to 'recall' a spell. If you are spamming a ton of spells in a single encounter this helps.
You can prepare a lot more spells with a ring of wizardry. You can potentially prep 2x your spells/ day different spells in a given day. Pearls only allow you to recall a spell you've prepped already.
Not so much an advantage as a limitation Pearls of Power only work with prepared casters. The rings can be used by any arcane caster. Whether that makes them worth the cost difference is questionable. It certainly puts the spontaneous at a disadvantage.
Yeah, I agree about that. A pearl popped up in a Council of Thieves module, and we realised to our amusement/frustration that our group of Rogue, Summoner, Sorcerer, Paladin, Paladin couldn't actually use the darned thing until the Paladins were high enough level.
Hmm, interesting discussion. I just don't see the first two points as big ones though--
For the first point, in games I've seen, pearls are used to recover spells immediately after combats, so you'd need to toss more than a full day's allotment of spells of a certain level in one fight in order for the ring to save you on action economy--and at the levels you can afford a Ring of Wizardry N, you are unlikely to cast that many level N spells in a single fight (I suppose barring Rods of Lesser Quicken, perhaps).
Also, for the second point, it isn't entirely an advantage for the Ring. True it can give you more variety, but if you wanted some combination of duplicates of 5 sorts of spells, preparing up to 10 spells in a day is not always as useful as just preparing the 5 spells and being able to recall the ones you need for the duplicates (so you can sort of spontaneously cast from within the original list you selected, like an Arcane Unearthed spellcaster). Still, point well taken.
I still think the rings are perplexingly overpriced compared to the pearls.
----
On topic, Heroism is a great example of another stand-out early access spell. What's more, it lasts long enough that you can often have a friendly noncombatant Bard cast it for your group before the start of the dungeon if you are playing in an urban setting. We've pulled that trick off in Council of Thieves as well, managing to blanket Heroism on everyone who goes into melee.
The reason why people may not have noticed how good Heroism was for Bards in PFRPG is because in the past, it didn't stack for attack rolls with Inspire Courage, so this was a subtle but large buff for Bards using the spell.
|
|
For the first point, in games I've seen, pearls are used to recover spells immediately after combats, so you'd need to toss more than a full day's allotment of spells of a certain level in one fight in order for the ring to save you on action economy--and at the levels you can afford a Ring of Wizardry N, you are unlikely to cast that many level N spells in a single fight (I suppose barring Rods of Lesser Quicken, perhaps).
Also, for the second point, it isn't entirely an advantage for the Ring. True it can give you more variety, but if you wanted some combination of duplicates of 5 sorts of spells, preparing up to 10 spells in a day is not always as useful as just preparing the 5 spells and being able to recall the ones you need for the duplicates (so you can sort of spontaneously cast from within the original list you selected, like an Arcane Unearthed spellcaster). Still, point well taken.
Oh I agree. Any 'edge' rings have is very minor and most likely not worth the price difference.
But summoners have no choice and since there are enough second level spells which you need a lot in the class it is a lot more tempting when you can finally afford it. Haste, Summon Eidolon, Lesser Evolution Surge, are all very tempting. Heck, the third level rings are quite tempting too (Dimension Door, Black Tentacles...) but crazy expensive.
One of the few advantages casting wise of 6 level spell classes is you can get a bit more mileage out of items that rely on spell level. Metamagic Rods and Rings of Wizardry in particular are appealing.
I just want to say Haste is awesome, and that is all I gots to say about that.
|
|
I think that by the time you can really afford the ring that you can make do with wands of summon eidolon and lesser evolution surge.
But summoners have no choice and since there are enough second level spells which you need a lot in the class it is a lot more tempting when you can finally afford it. Haste, Summon Eidolon, Lesser Evolution Surge, are all very tempting.
Yeah, 12k for the two wands are probably the better deal.