I've not had a problem with them. Granted, in my games I tweaked the class.
I guess I would have gone with different class ability powers and reducing the eidolon down to a permanent summon with the familiar template. Then you can remove all the special rules (proximity, prot evil, gear slots, summon SLA restriction, etc) and have a class that's focused on being a summoner.
The class ability powers would then revolve around summons. Instead of seeing through the eyes of your 'eidolon' it would be through any of your summons, etc.
Some of the class abilities (i.e. aspect) would be completely redone towards the flavor for a summon focused caster (contingent summons, 'kicker' spells when summoning, etc).
-James
Hmmm,
What if the Eidelon were summoned, but, the ritual to summon it takes a week. However, once summoned, it's summoned. You can redo the evolutions by self-banishing and redoing the week ritual at any time (not just when you level). When you level, you have to do the week ritual to resummon at the new powerful level. It can use any equipment you can put on it (like an Animal Comp), has no limit on how far it can get from you, is not affected by circles or banishment, etc.Basically, you turn it into an Animal Companion built with different rules. If it 'dies' the spirit goes back to it's realm, you resummon it over a week (kind of like attracting a new animal companion). The resummon is basically you building it a new body.
Get rid of almost all the special exceptions and such. It's just a more powerful version of an animal companion, with lots of flexibility.
I realize I am a little late coming to this thread, but I am confused as to the point the OP is trying to make.
He creates a level 20 Eidolon and states that it's damage output is unnacceptably high for a level 20 character. Other posters point out that the numbers are not that out of line for that level. He makes a new build, and attempts to prove the brokenness of a level 20 Eidolon vs a Fighter. Other posters point out the Fighter could do more damage... bickering insues...
The OP finally says that the Summoner should be hit by a nerf bat because it marginalizes and outperforms the Fighter... at level 20. Do I understand his position correctly? The SUMMONER should be NERFED because it makes the FIGHTER unneccessary... at LEVEL 20?
... isnt that what alot of full casting classes do? Why should the summoner be treated more harshly than the wizard. I'm not trying to bring about that dead horse again, I'm just confused as to why the summoner should get the hate for dealing more damage, when the wizard outperforms the Fighter in alot more ways (probably damage too, if he wanted. It's Level 20 for crying out loud).
Basically for a huge eidolon going up to gargantuan he better be getting more than 4 strength or he is not gaining any attack bonus. So it would really only be worthwhile if I could find a way to put animal growth on the eidolon. but in pathfinder there are no ways currently to add new spells to your spell list options.
Use a scroll, it counts as casting the spell. It's a DC 29 UMD check so it isn't reliable until later in the game.
Humbly,
Yawar
Also, where is this talk of eidolon's having low ac coming from?
Bipedal Eidelon :
Base Form : 13 AC (Natural Armor +2, +1 Dex AC)Level 20 : 31 AC from +14 Natural Armor, +4 Dex AC
Imp Nat Armor : 39 AC (+8 Natural Armor)
Dodge Feat : 40 AC (+1 Dodge Bonus)
Now, anything else the Eidelon can get is going to be taking away from the Summoner himself. Note I'm only doing 'all the time' bonuses, since spell buffs can be applied to Eidelon and Fighter equally, so sum zero there.
Fighter :
Base AC : 11 (Natural Armor +0, +1 Dex AC from 13 Dex)
+5 Mithral Full Plate : 25 (+9 Armor, +5 Enhancement)
+5 Ring of Deflection : 30 (+5 Deflection Bonus)
+6 Belt of Dexterity : 33 (+3 Dex AC)
Dodge Feat : 34 (+1 Dodge Bonus)
+5 Amulet of Natural Armor : 39 (+5 NA Bonus)
+5 Heavy Mithral Shield : 46 (+5 Enhancement, +2 Shield bonus)
+5 Dexterity Inherent : 49 (+3 Dex AC)
+1 Dusty Rose Stone : 50 (+1 Insight bonus)
So, the Fighter has 10 more points of AC without doing anything weird like Luck bonuses or or Holy or Infernal or anything like that. The fighter can get a maximum Dex bonus to armor of +7 at 20th level (+1 from full plate, +2 from mithral, +4 from armor training). I'd submit that a 10 point difference in AC is a significant difference at level 20.
The Eidelon might be able to squeeze out a few more if he takes the Imp Natural Armor feats as well. However, that's a GM call since the evolution seems to be the same thing. And he's burning feats to keep up doing that if it's allowed.
Summoner + ED WBL used = 0%
Yes, that was pointed out. By me. In the original post. The reason being that anything the Eidelon uses takes slots away from the Summoner, and he needs those items way more than the eidelon, since if he goes down the eidelon goes poof anyway.
So if your using the tome 340020 which is 38% of your wealth, or without the tome and using all your +1 ability bonuses from leveling would be 202520 23% of your wealth.Not to mention you have done nothing to increase your damage and would still have to buy atleast one or two expensive weapons, you haven't increased your STR one point beyond the starting meaning your way beyond there, and you only have a belt of dexterity and it's not adding to your str or con.
You max out your AC, but just turn yourself into a walking shield.
Yeah, and your point? 38% of your WBL for defense is not in any way unusual or even uncommon. And note that the Tome usage wouldn't even be considered 'just for defense' since it boosts Reflex Save, Skill Usage, Initiative...
And yes, I didn't bother listing attack items, as he's got a whopping 60% of his WBL to spend on attacks and such. I'm not sure why you consider that even a problem, since I was involved in a discussion about DEFENSE, not OFFENSE. More than likely, the belt would be a +6/+6/+6 belt, which would boost attack, HP and defense.
Eidolon AC:
10 base
36 natural(2 base, 16 progression,5 barkskin, 5 huge, 8 ina evolution)
7 shield(2 base, 5 enhancement, no feat required if shield is mithral)=26k
+5 ring of deflection=50k and one ring slot.
+5 from defending weapon(price varies depending on whether gmw is used)
+3/4 dex mod(3 if biped,4 if quad)
+4 mage armor
-2 size
total= 68 or 69 with more that can be done and I only used about about 100k, 1 relevant item slot, 0 feats, and haven't even boosted his dexterity.
Since you used spell buffs to do it, it's pointless. Add on all the buffs to the fighter above. Sheesh. Why do people keep wanting to add buffs into it? When buffs apply to everyone equally, so adding them in just makes everything muddy.
@Ice Deep
1) Fighter with shield is a single weapon fighter, ipso facto (board and sword build).
2) The original discussion was about AC. Not overall fighting ability. If you're maxing out your Eidelon to defense, you're not maxing him out for attack.
3) You're adding a belt into the amount spent on defense/attack, rather than adding it into 'other/utility items'. It's not a weapon or a defense. Same as a headband. It just happens to add to defense and attack as well. Same as a headband would do to a monk. It's still not an weapon or armor item.
4) Action economy is sort of meaningless. You're talking about magic buffs. Fighter spends one feat and gets the same action economy the eidelon does. Rogue Cohort with UMD. Sum zero.
how does 1 1st,2nd, and 3rd lvl spell make things muddy at lvl 20? Especially when 2 of the 3 have 20 hour durations, and the third has a 3+ hour duration. The eidolon clearly hoses a fighter in ac.
If I add on mage armor to the fighter nothing happen, if I add in barkskin, I am saving him alittle gold but not raising his ac, if I use gmw on his item I am once against not raising his ac but saving him some money.
Because you're assuming the eidelon gets buffs, but not the fighter. The fighter could have the same buffs, or even different buffs, and gain just as much benefit. That's why adding in buffs is just a way of muddying the water. Everyone can be buffed with magic. Fighter or Eidelon. Eidelon by summoner, Fighter by Cohort or team mate. Just like the druid can buff his AC, doesn't mean the AC is better than the fighter.
EDIT : I'll grant you Mage Armor does help the eidelon but not the fighter though, but it's only 4 AC. GMW would be just as useful for the fighter if he had to fall back to a different weapon. It still doesn't mean the Eidelon is way better than the fighter, which was the original statement.
@Ice Deep
*sigh* You're missing the point. I didn't say 'you can't use buffs'. I said 'Since buffs apply to everyone' it's useless to add them in. The only one the Eidelon can get that doesn't also work for the fighter is Mage Armor, I'll give you that one. There's an open debate on whether the eidelon can use a shield. Shields are armor. We're still waiting for the errata on whether those work for eidelons.
LOL
So... I'm not supposed to ignore buffs that affect both characters, but I'm supposed to ignore a feat that the fighter can take that the eidelon can't. Hmmm, ok. That's fine. I've made my points. You can laugh at them if you want, doesn't matter to me.
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Eidolon AC:
10 base
36 natural(2 base, 16 progression,5 barkskin, 5 huge, 8 ina evolution)
7 shield(2 base, 5 enhancement, no feat required if shield is mithral)=26k
+5 ring of deflection=50k and one ring slot.
+5 from defending weapon(price varies depending on whether gmw is used)
+3/4 dex mod(3 if biped,4 if quad)
+4 mage armor
-2 size
total= 68 or 69 with more that can be done and I only used about about 100k, 1 relevant item slot, 0 feats, 1 1st level spell slot, 1 2nd lvl spell slot, and haven't even boosted his dexterity.When we compare fighter and eidolon attack bonus, we are mostly comparing base differences that can't be easily made up for. In the case of ac, it is clear that an eidolon has a higher starting ac and both of them can equally benefit from equipment and buffs.
Except the eidolon can't wear armor of any kind, by rule.
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Eidolon AC:
10 base
36 natural(2 base, 16 progression,5 barkskin, 5 huge, 8 ina evolution)
7 shield(2 base, 5 enhancement, no feat required if shield is mithral)=26k
+5 ring of deflection=50k and one ring slot.
+5 from defending weapon(price varies depending on whether gmw is used)
+3/4 dex mod(3 if biped,4 if quad)
+4 mage armor
-2 size
total= 68 or 69 with more that can be done and I only used about about 100k, 1 relevant item slot, 0 feats, 1 1st level spell slot, 1 2nd lvl spell slot, and haven't even boosted his dexterity.When we compare fighter and eidolon attack bonus, we are mostly comparing base differences that can't be easily made up for. In the case of ac, it is clear that an eidolon has a higher starting ac and both of them can equally benefit from equipment and buffs.
Shield is armor. "An eidolon cannot wear armor of any kind, as the armor interferes with the summoner’s connection to the eidolon."
Defending weapon is going to lower it's attack bonus, which is already far less than a full BAB
Eidolon gets +16 from progression and can spending 4 points toward improved natural armor bring it to a max of 24. Depending on how you read "enhancement to natural armor" this may or may not stack with barkskin.
Size is +2 to natural armor, but -2 to dex (-1 AC) and -1 for size, so basically a wash.
Everything else the Fighter can get. And of course, the fighter can wear armor. Plus the fighter gets the enhancements you can put on armor.
And the big nerf.
"...magic items interfere with the summoner’s connection to his eidolon. As a result, the summoner and his eidolon share magic item slots. For example, if the summoner is wearing a ring, his eidolon can wear no more than one ring. In case of a conflict, the items worn by the summoner remain active, and those used by the eidolon become dormant. The eidolon must possess the appropriate appendages to utilize a magic item."
So who is wearing the ring of deflection, because I'm going to attack the one that isn't. Because if I take out the summoner, the eidelon goes "poof"
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except shields don't take an armor slot, do not give an armor bonus, and have a separate proficiency feat(namely shield proficiency) so it is legitimate to interpret they are not grouped with armor and thus it is perfectly fine for an eidolon to wield a shield.
Except they have armor check penalties and arcane spell failure penalties, because they are armor.
But for the purpose of playing devils advocate, let's use your logic and say you can have a shield. How many arms do we have again? And what feats have we taken, since you now need shield proficiency and to use one of your arms to wield the shield.
You have used 4 evolution points for natural armor. At 20th level you have 26 total, limbs are two evolution points each.
Break it down for me. Let's cease the moving target and make a build.
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Shield isn't armour ... and you don't "wear" a shield any way.
Not that it's relevant, weaknesses do not compensate for strength. As a DM you can't just keep just pushing the weaknesses to bring an overpowered character into balance, it's very bad for the game.
The Eidolon should never get to the point where he surpasses fighter damage output. He should never get pounce at level 1 when the fighter can only get it at level 11. He should never get size increases so much easier than the fighter, with better strength bonuses to boot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield
But moving on past that...I don't believe you can make your Eidolon that out damages the fighter without seriously gimping it in other ways that make the build impractical in actual play.
So prove me wrong, you've got 26 evolution points, 8 feats, and 3/4 BAB. Any magic item slot you fill is one your Summoner can't, and your WBL is divided between the two of you.
If you want to pick another level, feel free. Ideally I would love to see you build it from level 1, since that is how the game is intended, but show us what you got.
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Eidolon AC:
10 base
36 natural(2 base, 16 progression,5 barkskin, 5 huge, 8 ina evolution)
7 shield(2 base, 5 enhancement, no feat required if shield is mithral)=26k
+5 ring of deflection=50k and one ring slot.
+5 from defending weapon(price varies depending on whether gmw is used)
+3/4 dex mod(3 if biped,4 if quad)
+4 mage armor
-2 size
total= 68 or 69 with more that can be done and I only used about about 100k, 1 relevant item slot, 0 feats, 1 1st level spell slot, 1 2nd lvl spell slot, and haven't even boosted his dexterity.When we compare fighter and eidolon attack bonus, we are mostly comparing base differences that can't be easily made up for. In the case of ac, it is clear that an eidolon has a higher starting ac and both of them can equally benefit from equipment and buffs.
Eidolon gets +16 from progression and can spending 4 points toward improved natural armor bring it to a max of 24. Depending on how you read "enhancement to natural armor" this may or may not stack with barkskin.
Size is +2 to natural armor, but -2 to dex (-1 AC) and -1 for size, so basically a wash.
Everything else the Fighter can get. And of course, the fighter can wear armor. Plus the fighter gets the enhancements you can put on armor.
well you quote me and then incorrectly calculate max natural armor even though its in the quote. Eidolon's get 2 na from their base form, 16 from progression, 5 from becoming huge(so huge increases ac by 1), 8 from ina evolution(not an enhancement bonus), 5 from barkskin. So a max of 36 before pointlessly spending feats on the imp nat armor feat.
A fighter can get a max of 14 from armor. An eidolon can get 4 from mage armor. So the fighter gains 10 from his armor. Everything else they both benefit equally from.
If you can think of any, show me more ways a fighter can gain ac that an eidolon can't.
Huge is a -4 to dex and -2 to AC in, so net gain of +2. Plus then you are huge, good luck with doors, and now you are down 6 more evolution points.
You've spend 4 on natural armor and now 6 on huge, so you have 16 left at 20th.
And there is still the question of if the enhancement stacks with barkskin, since barkskin says "The enhancement bonus provided by barkskin stacks with the target's natural armor bonus, but not with other enhancement bonuses to natural armor." and the description of improved natural armor is that it is "giving it a +2 bonus to its natural armor."
So I would take that off the table, as it seems to be an either or.
And you also have remember, anything you put on the eidelon is a slot you can't use on the summoner, while the fighter has no such limitation.
As to what I would do with my armor.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor
Using a +3 bonus would be nice for the DR 5/magic. Or I can use it for fortification and have a chance to avoid crits and sneak attacks.
For money I can add spell abilities like righteous might...and there are all the specialized armors with their specialized abilities, like casting righteous might, fly, etc... And I could make it adamantine for DR 3/-
And of course, Armor Master gives me DR 5/- at 19th. So with Adamantine full plate it could be DR 8/- and if I made it invulnerable, unless I am wrong about it stacking the fighter could be DR 8/- DR 13/Magic.
How much damage are you doing each attack, again?
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I didn't realize that wikipedia was in the prd. My mistake.
Here is what it really comes down to. can you make a fighter who can achieve 60 armor class and still dish out competitive dpr?
If I am going to build an eidolon, I need people to give me some defense baselines.
I already built a 10th lvl summoner and eidolon in the dpr olympics that together achieve more than 200 dpr while fulfilling that threads defense requirements. If you want to look at the build be my guest. Do look at the most recent one because the earlier versions have issues(some of the math is bad and it wasn't as optimized).
Starting at lvl 1, a biped eidolon can sport 2 claws on their feat, a bite or slam attack and have 2 evolution points free to spend. I could easily go 1 point into reach and 1 point into improved damage claws. or throw the 2 points at energy attacks and have an eidolon at lvl 1 with 3 attacks that deal an average of 9-10 damage per hit.
Link to it.
At first level a fighter has 2 feats, three if they are human.
Two handed damage for an 18 str fighter with a greatsword (5.5 average) is going to be 11.5 (1.5 for two handed).
Power attack would be another +3 for a 14.5, which I would probably do since we both have the same BAB, but I have a higher strength and therefore a higher likelihood to hit. (+5 for me with my +4 from strength, +4 for you with your +3 from strength)
And that isn't even min/maxing strength to make that 18 into a 20.
Also, biped (I am assuming with the two claws) is 1d4 (2.5) + 3 from strength for an average damage of 5.5.
Am I missing something?
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huge is -4 dex(so -2 mod), -2 size mod to ac, and +5 na. So total gain of 1.
barkskin is an enhancement bonus.
ina evolution is an unnamed bonus. No problem there.
Do note that if the fighter can somehow survive with 50 ac, my eidolon does not even need a ring of protection pushing his ac up to 69. I will be just find with 64 ac and 0 of my summoner's relevant slots used(summoner does not use a shield since he avoids the arcane spell failure). Though he might desire to use a mithral light metal shield for a +6 in some cases.
As far as I know, damage reduction does not stack. This may have changed in pathfinder but in 3.5 it did not.
EDIT fixed some math.
You are right DR does not stack.
Your shield has all of the effect of (armor penalty and arcane spell failure) and is listed under armor, so it's armor (-7). And it doesn't stack with mage armor, so at minimun take it down 4 to 60. The barkskin says it doesn't stack with bonuses from enhancements, and I would read that as an enhancement bonus, but it's admittedly grey.
You are actually low on your Dex, as you get a +8 bonus which would take you to 6/5
Defending weapon means you won't be able to hit anything, since you are basically sacrificing the attack bonus of a +5 weapon to use it. I could do the same thing with combat expertise, but it is silly.
So I say 10+2(Inherent 12)+16(progression 28)+4(mage armor 32) +5 or 6 (dex 37 or 38)+ 5 (Ring of deflection 42 or 43)+ net 1 (huge 43 or 44)+4 Natural armor evolutions. (48/49)
You would add in 7 for shield (-4 for mage armor to net +3 for 51 or 52) and 5 for barkskin (57 or 58) and 5 for defending (62 or 63)
So I say you are at 48 or 49 without the defending weapon, 48 or 49 with it, you say 57 or 58 without it, 62 or 63 with it, unless my math is off or I missed something
A 20th level fighter will have a +20 BAB. I'm going to assume a minimum 28 str (start at 17, you get 5 bumps, and you are going to have a +9. It would actually be higher with tombs, but I'm being nice) taking him up to 29, add in a +5 weapon for 34. +4 from weapon training for a +38, plus another 2 for weapon focus and greater weapon focus taking me to +40.
So I say he hits you more than 50% of the time, you say he hits you 20 or 25% of the time.
Fighter is going to be
10+14 (armor 24) + 5 (ring 29) + 5 natural armor amulet (34) + 5 dex (armor training and amulet of dex 39) +1 Dodge (40)
I can go up to 45 with a shield, but probably wouldn't and I could get up to 55 with combat expertise and a defending weapon, but that is just as silly as you doing that. And I have DR 5/-
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ciretose- you are alittle confused about the armor stuff.
improved natural armor evolution adds 2 per time it is taken. It can be taken 4 times for a total of 8 natural armor. It an unnamed bonus and stacks with other bonuses such as enhancement bonuses.
mage armor is an armor bonus and stacks with shield bonuses.
Also, an eidolon using a defending weapon is much less of a loss than a 1 or 2 weapon user using a defending weapon.
An eidolon will have something like 8 attacks at full chance to hit and then 1 defending weapon at -5 to hit and since this is one of the off-hand attacks, it is only 1 attack at less to hit.a few more ways I can boost ac if I am facing a really high attack bonus fighter is have 10 ranks in tumble and fight defensively for 3 more ac. If I pick up a +6 int item I can also at some point pick up combat expertise(this is not optimal but it is an option). which is another 5 ac. add in a monk's robe for 1 more ac. pick up the ac ioun stone for 1 more and where are we at 78(79 if quadraped). That is as high as I can personally get it and alot is sacrificed.
to james- you may already know that I think 1 of the main solutions for the weapon issue is using amulets of might fists. Perhaps another time when I am free I might post a full lvl 20 build.
If you are using 10 evolution points to get AC up and to become huge, limbs are I believe 2 evolution points each.
What is the Eidelon's full chance to hit and how much damage does it do?
If it never hits, or it only barely clears DR, what is the point?
And if you are doing all that to your eidelon, then I'll just go kill the summoner and the eidelon goes poof.
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to james- you may already know that I think 1 of the main solutions for the weapon issue is using amulets of might fists. Perhaps another time when I am free I might post a full lvl 20 build.Yes, and on the other thread I've decried that as not kosher which I know we differ in opinions upon.
In general I think that if you have to use questionable rulings (such as the OPers abuse of aspect w/ twin eidolon, multiple defending weapons, and the like) then you have some issues.
You'd still fall a little short of the +7 to hit from magic though as amulets cap at +5, unless you'd try to stack different ones.. again more side stepping things.
Try to do out the eidolon and summoner without this stuff. If you can't then there's something to be said for that,
James
Agreed. If you have to take the most liberal reading of every rule in order to make a build work, the build doesn't work.
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I do not think shields working is a liberal reading.I think that the amulet applies to the unarmed attacks and since multiweapon fighting basically gives you 1 extra attack with each off hand weapon, I find it to be functionally similar to natural attacks since only the main hand is getting iterative attacks.
while I think that there is nothing stopping separate slotless amulets from stacking up different enhancements. I am certain that this is just a loophole. If I bring a build forward it will not use this.
1. I think that there is variation on shields. This is WotC's fault for using armor in two ways, and Paizo's fault for adding this silly restriction to Eidolon's that is a kludgy fix so RAI is hard to determine.
Shields are armor in the categorical sense. They have an armor check penalty. They have arcane spell failure.
They are not armor in what is worn vs equipped. 'Armor' is a subcategory of armor, and that's just as wonderful as trying to talk about 'caster level' when either describing at what level a PC can cast particular spells or what spells they are allowed to cast (say an ioun stone increasing caster level vs a PrC advancing caster level).
2. I think that trying to get the best of both worlds between multiweapon fighting, a slew of gauntlets and an amulet of mighty fists is not kosher. How many offhand attacks can a monk make with an unarmed strike? How does number of hands figure in here? Does number of legs? How many 'off-hand' kicks in a round can a centipede make? Etc.
3. The amulets do not even need to be slotless, just a pair of different amulets of mighty fist enchantments in the same amulet, or in items in different slots. This is a paizo change that while nice, needs a bit more thought than simple plug and play.
-James
I think the clear intention of the no-armor rule was so that they could calculate how much of an armor bonus they were making available to the eidelon vs a vie a fighter or other armor wearing class.
In other words, they felt comfortable giving them as much access to natural armor as someone could get with actual armor, which would include shields as much as it would include bracers.
And as to the amulet of mighty fists, now your summoner isn't wearing an amulet either. And again you are taking a liberal reading because you want it both ways so you get the advantages of natural attacks without the limitation as to the number of them you have.
Not that it matters, since you have used 10 evolution points for armor and huge, only have 16 left for anything else.
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1. I think that there is variation on shields. This is WotC's fault for using armor in two ways, and Paizo's fault for adding this silly restriction to Eidolon's that is a kludgy fix so RAI is hard to determine.
Shields are armor in the categorical sense. They have an armor check penalty. They have arcane spell failure.
They are not armor in what is worn vs equipped. 'Armor' is a subcategory of armor, and that's just as wonderful as trying to talk about 'caster level' when either describing at what level a PC can cast particular spells or what spells they are allowed to cast (say an ioun stone increasing caster level vs a PrC advancing caster level).
2. I think that trying to get the best of both worlds between multiweapon fighting, a slew of gauntlets and an amulet of mighty fists is not kosher. How many offhand attacks can a monk make with an unarmed strike? How does number of hands figure in here? Does number of legs? How many 'off-hand' kicks in a round can a centipede make? Etc.
1. Well that is one interpretation although that has its issues too(armor being a subcategory of armor has an amusing sound to it.)
while shields may have arcane spell failure and an armor check penalty, there are even more things that make them different from armor. Which is why I do not think it is fair to suggest that it requires even a slightly liberal reading of the rules to say that shields are not armor.
though since the lvl 1 spell shield can be used as a replacement, not having a shield only drops the eidolon's possible max ac by 3.
2. I think the real problem you guys have with using the amulet is that the eidolon can currently pull out a large number of arms and thus a large number of attacks. If they at some point decide to include manufactured weapons in this natural attack limit, will it still seem problematic? Then at lvl 20 an eidolon will be able to multiweapon attack with 7 weapons. Then the amulet is functionally performing the same task it does for the...
No need for a target. It is a build, you have to do all things, and be able to do damage.
The fighter above can get to attack levels far higher than you can, even with power attack.
And speaking of power attack, (or deadly aim) it can do far more damage per attack.
Again, 10 points burned to get huge and high ac, meaning only 16 evolution points left.
And this is why I rewrote the Eidelon's rules for attacks :
Max. Attacks: This column indicates the maximum number of attacks that the eidolon is allowed to make as a full-round attack action at a given level. As the summoner grows in level, his ability to craft the eidelon's body is refined, and the eidelon can make additional attacks per round.This limit is an absolute limit on attacks, and represents the ability of the eidelon to control his construct body in a stressful combat situation. The eidelon may possess as many natural attacks or manufactured weapon attacks as the summoner wishes (and his evolution pool allows!), but the eidelon can only make up to his limit in attacks per round. For example, if an eidelon with four attacks had four arms, four legs, 2 sets of claws, two great swords, four daggers, a bite, and a tail slap, the eidelon could make any combination of attacks that added up to four. This could be four dagger attacks, two great sword attacks and two claw attacks, four claw attacks, or any other combination of four attacks. The eidelon treats any manufactured weapon it has proficiency with as if it were a primary natural attack when calculating BAB, and any weapon it does not have proficiency with as a secondary natural attack (note that the secondary natural attack penalties stack with the non-proficiency penalties).
Yes, it's an exception to the rules, but, it's a very easy to remember exception (the part about primary/secondary and weapon attacks), but it also reigns in power and cuts the arguments to a minimum. 'But I want to learn TWF and use it'. Fine, you still only get X attacks. 'But but but...' . X attacks.
Yes, it's an exception to the rules, but, it's a very easy to remember exception (the part about primary/secondary and weapon attacks), but it also reigns in power and cuts the arguments to a minimum. 'But I want to learn TWF and use it'. Fine, you still only get X attacks. 'But but but...' . X attacks.Yeah, but why have the exception to the rules at all?
Why not instead limit the number of arms that an Eidolon can have, etc?
This would be just as limiting without having to contort the rules out of place to do so.
It might take more work on the rules for eidolon design, but imho that's where the burden should be.
Personally I'd say give the Eidolons a class chart, and specific choices at given 'levels' from which to choose. Putting them on a simple point system for everything was a huge mistake.
-James
Because, limiting his arms doesn't work.
Oh, I only have 6 arms, how can I do 7 claws then if I want to? Oh, I'll just have 6 arms and 5 tentacles and make 11 attacks, plus a bite. Oh, I'll take Improved Unarmed Attack and buy 20 legs and use multiattack to punch 6 times and kick 18 times.
The eidelon is already a huge giant sink of exceptions. If you're going to allow flexibility in it's build, you have to do something like this. The issue with them being overpowered has always been # of attacks. That's why I hated the mods that made it into the APG. They didn't do anything to limit it's # of attacks, they instead made it go poof if the summoner goes asleep or unconscious and share slots and not wear armor.
This exception to the normal rules at the very least is simple to remember, and it limits the actual brokeness of the eidelon.
I would have preferred if they'd simply limited number of attacks something like above, allowed armor, halved natural armor and bonus from INA evolutions and allowed the eidelon to stay around and use items normally. In other words, a more powerful and varied AC.