Sometimes we keep playing a campaign into the 20+ realm. I was looking through the Magus to see what someone might do to try to tweak something. I think the class is very powerful to begin with (but I do like the idea, I've had a homebrew, I called it 'Mage' already made for years). What I was looking at is the Magus Arcana: Broad Study (Off the subject, is that for any class including Divine or just Arcane). When you pass 20th level in the Core Rulebook you gain an extra spell level every odd level and if you want a 2nd spell slot on evens. With a Bard it didn't matter, you can't cast from a different spell list so you use a 7th, 8th, etc. spell slots on metamagic or lower level spells. But the way they have the rules it seems you could take the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list with broad study and by the time your 25th level you have 9th level spells at your disposal. Throw in Improved Spell Pool and Greater Spell Pool along with the feats of Arcane Armor Training and Mastery for non Magus spells you have a very overpowered character. I know that is just on very high level characters, but I just thought I'd throw it out there for nerd rage. I hope Paizo doesn't do what WotC did. It seemed like everytime a new book came out it became more powerful(like Complete Mage letting you carry on with 2 different spell advancements, yes it was in the DMG too). Im glad they brought up the Core Classes so you were not automatically going to take a Prestige, but hopefully new classes don't keep getting better and make it where a fighter or a wizard is overlooked. And you can tell me that you can allow whatever you want or don't want as a DM, but we buy the books for that, I don't want to go over a class and say 'Ah you can't do that or use that because its to powerful'.
Gebby wrote: What I was looking at is the Magus Arcana: Broad Study (Off the subject, is that for any class including Divine or just Arcane). Magus Playtest wrote:
Broad Study (Ex): A magus with this magus arcana must select one other class that grants the ability to cast spells. The magus can use his spellstrike and spell combat abilities while casting or using spells from the spell list of that class. This does not allow him to cast arcane spells from that class’s spell list without suffering the normal chances of arcane spell failure. The magus must be at least 6th level before selecting this arcana.
It works for any spellcasting class.
Quote: But the way they have the rules it seems you could take the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list with broad study and by the time your 25th level you have 9th level spells at your disposal. Broad Study doesn't work that way. It doesn't get you any new spells at all. Instead, it lets you cast the spells you know from another class while using your signature Magus class abilities.
For instance, if you were a Magus 6 / Cleric 1, and had chosen Broad Study (Cleric) for your Magus Arcana, you could cast a Cure Light Wounds spell while using Spell Combat. It does not, however, let you cast Cure Light Wounds as a Magus spell.
Really, I reread it and it doesn't say anything of being multiclassed. It just says select one other class that grants the (not the characters) ability to cast spells.
Gebby wrote: Really, I reread it and it doesn't say anything of being multiclassed. It just says select one other class that grants the (not the characters) ability to cast spells. Then you should reread it again. Broad Study provides no spellcasting ability. Even if it gave you access to another class's spell list (which, again, it does not), you would still be limited to your Magus spells per day, which tops out at 6th level spells.
But, again, that doesn't matter, because Broad Study provides no spellcasting ability. It merely allows you to cast a non-Magus spell while using Spellstrike or Spell Combat. If you reread either of those abilities, you'll note that they specifically work only when casting Magus spells (e.g., you can use Spell Combat only when casting a Magus spell with a casting time of 1 standard action or less).
Thus, in the case of a Magus 6 / Cleric 1, he cannot use Spell Combat and cast Bless, even though Bless only takes a standard action, because it is not a Magus spell. If he takes Broad Study (Cleric) as his 2nd Arcana, then he can. In either case, though, he casts Bless as a level 1 Cleric.
Edit: If it worked like you think it does, then why would you ever take the ... Expanded Knowledge? ... Arcana, which lets you add a few Wizard spells to your Magus spell list? You'd instead just take Broad Study (Wizard) and add them all at once. I think the designers just maybe would have noticed that one!
Gebby wrote: It just says select one other class that grants the (not the characters) ability to cast spells. No, thats not ALL it says. If you read on, right after that line, it says "The magus can use his spellstrike and spell combat abilities while casting or using spells from the spell list of that class." Thats the line IMMEDIATELY following where it says to select one other class that grants the ability to cast spells. Just as Patryn said, it allows you to use any multi-class spells you have as part of your spell strike and spell combat abilities, which you normally couldnt do. It does NOT give you every spell of another class. In this case, you are reading it wrong.
Well its a good thing I read it wrong because that would be ridiculous.
tl;dr: a magus with 9-level spells is no more overpowered than a wizard with 9-level spells. Magic is about clever control, and Spell Combat "doesn't work that way"
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You are putting too much value on the full attack. Full attacks are not even remotely competitive with spells, that's the nature of third-edition magic.
You know that enlarged raging frenzying goliath barbarian/fighter/frenzied berserker/whatever that power attack pounce-leap-charges for 4 attacks all with like +60 to damage each?
Still almost completely stopped by a level 1 spell. Rendered useless by a level 2 spell.
That said, magi have a lot of restrictions to be able to full attack and cast a spell at the same time, so most power in that attack is on the spell itself.
Thus, the power of spell combat comes from the action economy. It's about getting off an extra round of attacks, controlling the battlefield while also contributing to damage. It's nice and powerful, but far from overpowered.
Recent threads in Round 3: Revised Magus Discussion
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