I don't get all the cries for Zorro or musketeers.
They're literally just normal fighters who oh have a gun they fire once.
That's not the basis for a full class centered around firearms.
I don't get all the cries for Zorro or musketeers.
They're literally just normal fighters who oh have a gun they fire once.
That's not the basis for a full class centered around firearms.
No currently the only way to play the gunslinger as written IS as a musketeer (fire gun, use sword) this would also work well for pirates, so some people may actually WANT that.
Without any changes, the current gunslinger IS a musketeer.
I don't get all the cries for Zorro or musketeers.
They're literally just normal fighters who oh have a gun they fire once.
That's not the basis for a full class centered around firearms.
No currently the only way to play the gunslinger as written IS as a musketeer (fire gun, use sword) this would also work well for pirates, so some people may actually WANT that.
Without any changes, the current gunslinger IS a musketeer.
Yes, but this is not by design, it's by mistake and terrible mechanics.
I mean it's meant to be a class revolving entirely around using a gun. Wanting an archtype that then doesn't use a gun is like requesting a spell-less wizard.
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That's just it though: calling it a gunslinger forces the class into revolving around guns. Getting around this limitation so the class can represent a wide variety of characters is appealing.
One obvious thing to do is open it up so the Gunslinger is more clearly defined as a (don't kill me for saying this) Controller-type of character. Like a swashbuckler, pulp hero, musketeer, or even a gunslinger from the more fanciful Westerns. Someone more likely to put a bullet through a rope or kick over a table than they are to stand in place and deliver precise, lethal shots.
I don't want a class that "revolves around using a gun". If all the class gives me is "uses gun good", it's worse than useless because it took up printed space.
Widen the skill selection and up the base skill points per level. The current skill selection is too low to play swashbuckler-infiltrator archetypes. Maybe adding stealth to the skills list won't force players into multi classing just to complete what could be a basic archetype of the class. Whip as a proficient weapon a plus.
I agree that the gunslinger should get 4+ skill points rather than 2. Ranks in Knowledge (Engineering), Acrobatics, Bluff, and Ride seem to be required for the ‘standard’ gunslinger concept. Then again, I’d give every class 4+ or more, so I’m willing to admit I’m be off by 2 from design philosophy. I would also remove Heal from the class skills.
I disagree with adding stealth. There’s nothing subtle about guns, and I don’t think “swashbuckler” and “infiltrator” need to go together, and most especially in the don’t-see-me sense. If a gunslinger wants to infiltrate, he should bluff, not hide.
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A gun costs 11gp per shot for a chance to break and do mediocre damage most of the time. I am willing to accept that black powder may be a rare and quasi-magical item, but a peasant's monthly earnings for a small cylinder of common lead is pretty far fetched. 10 bullets for 1gp seems more reasonable. Even then, guns are just slightly cheaper to operate that a wand of magic missiles slinging wizard.
Guns are actually more expensive than a wizard with a wand of Magic Missile, since the wizard can enchant his own wand for 7.5 gold per shot, with no cost for the weapon!
I’d much rather see bullets cost little and powder cost more. First, for realism, since bullets for black powder weapons are simple lead balls, like sling bullets only smaller. One silver for 10 bullets, just like sling bullets, is appropriate. Powder, on the other hand, could be quite expensive. If gunslingers are intended to spend most of their combat actions shooting, then I’d say 1 gold per charge is just right. (that’s 20 times the cost of arrows, by the way.)
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The gunslinger is not a damage dealer. This in itself isn't bad, as most of his abilities seem geared towards controlling foes from a distance (tripping foes, entangling, etc) but his ability to exert that control is highly limited. He needs more grit. Perhaps along the lines of 3+wis like the cleric, or half his level plus wisdom like lay-on-hands?
Actually, I’d rather see the gunslinger as a little more of a damage dealer, and a little less of a controller. Or, if not less of a controller, then not more than they are already. Guns are mostly good for killing. If you want to trip, disarm, or entangle foes, there’s equipment available that’s much more appropriate.
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As some on the board have mentioned, many of the class features just fix the rules problems with the weapon.
I love that strategy! Guns should suck, or everyone will be using them. If Pathfinder were a game about the old west, guns should beat swords, but we’re talking about a fantasy setting, and it would change the game entirely if the best ranged weapons were guns. If anything, I think guns should be even worse than they’re written, and the gunslinger’s class abilities should mitigate the awfulness and create coolness that no one else can wrest from a firearm.
I don't get all the cries for Zorro or musketeers.
They're literally just normal fighters who oh have a gun they fire once.
That's not the basis for a full class centered around firearms.
Fully agree.
If you guys want a musketeer so much it's called build a duelist and have him open up with a musket shot.
I don't get all the cries for Zorro or musketeers.
They're literally just normal fighters who oh have a gun they fire once.
That's not the basis for a full class centered around firearms.
Fully agree.
If you guys want a musketeer so much it's called build a duelist and have him open up with a musket shot.
duelist would be the prestige class, gunslinger would be the base class. a little gunslinger and alot of duelist would make a great musketeer or pirate.
I'm pretty sure I read an official statement that there won't be any prestige classes in both ultimate books ;-)
duelist would be the prestige class, gunslinger would be the base class. a little gunslinger and alot of duelist would make a great musketeer or pirate.I don't get all the cries for Zorro or musketeers.
They're literally just normal fighters who oh have a gun they fire once.
That's not the basis for a full class centered around firearms.
Fully agree.
If you guys want a musketeer so much it's called build a duelist and have him open up with a musket shot.
There's nothing in the gunslinger class that supports he "shoot once, then draw your sword" style of combat. That's the problem - it's what you have to do to deal effective damage, but all your class abilities revolve around that one opening shot.
Gunslinger 1/Fighter X/Dualist Y would be better for a musketeer, but it's impossible. Though I wouldn't be surprised to see a musketeer prestige class.
As written right now (name aside) the mechanics force the gunslinger to be a musketeer (shoot with gun, run out of ammo, go melee), so effectively the current gunslinger with the current rules IS a musketeer/pirate. There is nothing wrong with that type of character build. Someone might want a gunslinger/rouge/duelist to make their pirate or a gunslinger/cavalier/duelist to make their musketeer.
duelist would be the prestige class, gunslinger would be the base class. a little gunslinger and alot of duelist would make a great musketeer or pirate.
Correction, a SINGLE LEVEL DIP of Gunslinger, and the subsequent other classes required to qualify for Duelist, would make a good musketeer.
That single dip gives you the grit for if you have a misfire, AND gives you your musket and ammo, AND full bab. It's actually worth the dip, but to proceed with the class? No reason to.
Therefore, no, the gunslinger is NOT a musketeer or pirate. It could however certainly be used as a dip for them though.
I don't get all the cries for Zorro or musketeers.
They're literally just normal fighters who oh have a gun they fire once.
That's not the basis for a full class centered around firearms.
No currently the only way to play the gunslinger as written IS as a musketeer (fire gun, use sword) this would also work well for pirates, so some people may actually WANT that.
Without any changes, the current gunslinger IS a musketeer.
Ill tell u you now that if you want to play a musketeer, just buy a gun, take the feat to use it, and play a straight fighter. You'll get more feats anyways, and if your only gonna shoot once, your not gonna get much use out of the deeds.
The class is built around being a character who uses guns! THAT'S IT! JUST GUNS! NOT SWORDS AND SUCH!
Now that we got that much through, you're not gonna get much from the Gunslinger class for using a sword and such. And the feats you COULD take to make your melee good, you prolly won't take cause you are already feat starved and the feats you need to take are rapid reload and such.
Here's what you do, as I have stated in about 16 other threads.
1. Make deeds like the magus arcanas. You get 1 every so many levels and you get to pick it. Makes each gunslinger more of an individual. More unique.
2. Make grit similar to the magus' arcane pool points (can't remember how much they get but its better than what the gunslinger gets). This will allow you to use the grit points more often.
3. The deeds that do things if you miss of the targeting deed, give the creatures subject to those effects a save.
4. The stunning shot deed at lvl 19, allow the gun to do crit damage AND stun. Say that this deed can only be chosen if u are 15th lvl or higher. By then, you are and epic character in PF. Other classes will be doing much worse than that, I promise you.
5. Give the class the feats it needs. Rapid reload and such. Makes sense to me.
6. Change their crappy gun thing they get at 5th lvl and make it more like the fighters weapon selection.
There's just a few changes I suggest.
I would like to see something akin to ranger combat styles:
a rifleman who gets a HEFTY bonus for shooting once a round with a two handed firearm: extra damage dice, increased threat range scaling by level, something
a pistoleer who gets some increased damage with pistols and an improved rapid reload feat tree to fire full attacks
a cavalry/pirate/swashbuckler style that allowed a pistol to be a light weapon for TWF and got a special weapon training group that included pistols and rapier, scimitar, shortsword, dagger. This group should also get the ability to melee with a pistol as a non-improvised weapon
On the point of damage dealing what does an average 12th level fighter deal?
In our 12th level playtest the gunslinger avereged 100 points a round we thought that was pretty solid damage
On the point of damage dealing what does an average 12th level fighter deal?
In our 12th level playtest the gunslinger avereged 100 points a round we thought that was pretty solid damage
The Gunslinger doesn't balance out until lvl 11+ and that is only through Signature Deeding his Lightning Reload. Prior to level 11 your role as gunslinger is to feel useless and think "I should of made a Fighter archer..."
The Gunslinger doesn't balance out until lvl 11+ and that is only through Signature Deeding his Lightning Reload. Prior to level 11 your role as gunslinger is to feel useless and think "I should of made a Fighter archer..."On the point of damage dealing what does an average 12th level fighter deal?
In our 12th level playtest the gunslinger avereged 100 points a round we thought that was pretty solid damage
I thought most of the DPR Olympics guys were hitting 130ish at 10th. But will fully admit I haven't poured through that set of posts.
The Gunslinger doesn't balance out until lvl 11+ and that is only through Signature Deeding his Lightning Reload. Prior to level 11 your role as gunslinger is to feel useless and think "I should of made a Fighter archer..."On the point of damage dealing what does an average 12th level fighter deal?
In our 12th level playtest the gunslinger avereged 100 points a round we thought that was pretty solid damage
I felt exactly like this when I made a 10th lvl gunslinger. But instead of a fighter archer I said a fighter gun user.
I thought most of the DPR Olympics guys were hitting 130ish at 10th. But will fully admit I haven't poured through that set of posts.The Gunslinger doesn't balance out until lvl 11+ and that is only through Signature Deeding his Lightning Reload. Prior to level 11 your role as gunslinger is to feel useless and think "I should of made a Fighter archer..."On the point of damage dealing what does an average 12th level fighter deal?
In our 12th level playtest the gunslinger avereged 100 points a round we thought that was pretty solid damage
Using a standard pistol I don't see how it'd be possible prior to lvl 11 and doing what I said.
Your char is pretty much stuck dealing 1d8 or 2d6+dex each shot. Problem is with a single shot pistol or musket... that is all you get. You could theoretically pull the whole wacky multiple pistols and shoot drop, draw shoot drop, draw to take advantage of your BAB, but it is just as highly unrealistic as the trick at lvl 11 is.
On the point of damage dealing what does an average 12th level fighter deal?
In our 12th level playtest the gunslinger avereged 100 points a round we thought that was pretty solid damage
i assume youre using the grit lighting reload trick that opens up at level 11, because without it, theres NO way you could average that much damage without dealing damage every single round, which cant be done without the "mandatory option" of lighting reload cheese.
I thought most of the DPR Olympics guys were hitting 130ish at 10th. But will fully admit I haven't poured through that set of posts.The Gunslinger doesn't balance out until lvl 11+ and that is only through Signature Deeding his Lightning Reload. Prior to level 11 your role as gunslinger is to feel useless and think "I should of made a Fighter archer..."On the point of damage dealing what does an average 12th level fighter deal?
In our 12th level playtest the gunslinger avereged 100 points a round we thought that was pretty solid damage
Man so they are even a little behind the damage curve
Yeah I know they ballance out at 11th level it sucks that you have to take thouse feats to make the gunslinger not a gimp class
I felt exactly like this when I made a 10th lvl gunslinger. But instead of a fighter archer I said a fighter gun user.
You should probably post about it in the playtest. The devs need to realize this, and by realize, I mean have this fact brought down upon their heads till they bleed.
If you say its not a musketeer, then:
1) how are you playing it prior to level 11, and still taking advantage of it's major features (guns and iterative attacks), while NOT using any melee weapons.
2) why do they have all martial weapons? I think this is stupid. If its a gunslinger, let it gunsling, these guys would never have studied the use of all those weapons. It should be all simple, and a handful of martial weapons (or let the PC choose a category like "light blades" or "monk weapons" or whatever at character creation)
3) I also wouldnt mind this at the 3/4 BAB rate and then give deeds and features that give him full bab with firearms only.
4) how do i whirlwind attack with my pistols?? I wanna whirlwind with pistols!!!
how are you playing it prior to level 11
Please see my "Feel useless and wish I was a Fighter archer" comment. That is how you play a gunslinger until lvl 11.
2) why do they have all martial weapons? I think this is stupid. If its a gunslinger, let it gunsling, these guys would never have studied the use of all those weapons. It should be all simple, and a handful of martial weapons (or let the PC choose a category like "light blades" or "monk weapons" or whatever at character creation)
A side effect of the Fighter base class, another side effect of this was the loss of Perception. In short, poor design decisions... or lack of rather.
3) I also wouldnt mind this at the 3/4 BAB rate and then give deeds and features that give him full bab with firearms only.
I'm in agreement with this, it would work, see the Monk alternate someone made.
1. Widen the skill selection and up the base skill points per level. The current skill selection is too low to play swashbuckler-infiltrator archetypes. Maybe adding stealth to the skills list won't force players into multi classing just to complete what could be a basic archetype of the class. Whip as a proficient weapon a plus.
Its an Alternate fighter, so dont expect too much of that sort of thing from it. I also doubt very much that there will be no "firearm using" archetypes for other classes.
I do, however, think it needs perception.
2. A gun costs 11gp per shot for a chance to break and do mediocre damage most of the time.
This situation Infuriates me, since in the 3.5 rules for the Golarion setting, firearms only used bullets (no mention of powder) and they were 1gp for TEN shots.
3. The gunslinger is not a damage dealer. This in itself isn't bad, as most of his abilities seem geared towards controlling foes from a distance ( tripping foes, entangling, etc) but his ability to exert that control is highly limited. He needs more grit. Perhaps along the lines of 3+wis like the cleric, or half his level plus wisdom like lay-on-hands?
I do think he needs more grit, but another alternative is increasing his grit recovery, like allowing it to refuel one point each time he reloads, or lowering the crit multiplier to increase his crit threat. This would open up the option of using many of the critical feats.
4. Nothing wows me about the firearm, yet there is a class completely devoted to it's use. As an enthusiast, I'm left wanting more. As some on the board have mentioned, many of the class features just fix the rules problems with the weapon. If the weapon is so slow to load, expensive to use, and has a chance of breaking, there needs to be a compelling reason for me to want to use this beyond liking the concept, otherwise at some point in a campaign I'm going to feel like a tool for not playing a ranger. X4 crit is somewhat enticing, but not worth the drawbacks. Now something truly eye-popping like x6 crit makes me want to put up with all the trouble this weapon is going to give me. Or bring back exploding dice.
I just think the Firearms need a wider critical threat, and lower crit multipliers. That could, theoretically, make guns THE weapon for a critical hit specialist. Give em all 18-20 x2, and suddenly im loading up on status effect feats.
I have several problems with the class, buy my biggest one relates to the guns themselves. Honestly, the misfire mechanic is horrendously broken, in that you're constantly facing the possibility of having your rather expensive guns in your face. Honestly, I think that the Gunslinger should have an ability akin to the following:
"Gun Expert (Ex): Gunslingers are specially trained to properly handle the delicate mechanisms and volatile gunpowder in their weapons. At 1st level, a firearm wielded by a Gunslinger will never misfire, regardless of its misfire chance."
With the gun rules already set in stone, mitigating their risks can only be done with a class ability. This way, any class can use guns, but lo' and behold, the class built around them doesn't have to deal with these problems. And if only to be fair to other classes, throw them a bone as a feat:
"Gun Expert
Prerequisites: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearms), Not a Gunslinger, -some other feat/ability requirement-
A gun will never misfire for a character that has this feat."
You should probably post about it in the playtest. The devs need to realize this, and by realize, I mean have this fact brought down upon their heads till they bleed.
I felt exactly like this when I made a 10th lvl gunslinger. But instead of a fighter archer I said a fighter gun user.
i can post the build but i didnt get to use him this week due to a LOT of roleplay (i know some people will wimper at this but i thought it was an AWESOME trade off. love roleplay.) ill try to post it sometime this week.
also, had to give the guy mithral revolvers from the PF Campaign Guide, but he was in Alkenstar. not like he needed the money for anything else.
If you say its not a musketeer, then:
1) how are you playing it prior to level 11, and still taking advantage of it's major features (guns and iterative attacks), while NOT using any melee weapons.
I think you are having an issue with cause and effect.
It is a Gunslinger - it is entirely focused on guns. Period. No debate. The fact that you can't use guns all the time DOES NOT MAKE IT a musketeer. It makes it a weak class that is built around using bad and broken mechanics.
With the gun rules already set in stone, mitigating their risks can only be done with a class ability.
This is, more or less, the only reasonable conclusion.
The only way to make the class not sub-par (at best) is to make it not beholden to the god awful gun mechanics.
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With the gun rules already set in stone, mitigating their risks can only be done with a class ability.This is, more or less, the only reasonable conclusion.
The only way to make the class not sub-par (at best) is to make it not beholden to the god awful gun mechanics.
But, ARE the gun rules "set in stone"? I mean, this is still the first round of play testing for these new "classes" and the gun rules are part of the play test.
My feeling is that the gun rules are very much still a work in progress.
With the gun rules already set in stone, mitigating their risks can only be done with a class ability.This is, more or less, the only reasonable conclusion.
The only way to make the class not sub-par (at best) is to make it not beholden to the god awful gun mechanics.
But, ARE the gun rules "set in stone"? I mean, this is still the first round of play testing for these new "classes" and the gun rules are part of the play test.
My feeling is that the gun rules are very much still a work in progress.
The Devs have eluded to "these are guns, this is how they will work, there MIGHT be MINOR changes"
I sincerely hope that guns are either going to improve, or all the things a gunslinger needs to counteract them get built inot the class. Rapid reload, a reduction or removal in misfire chance, and a much earlier version of the lightning reload/signature deed combo need to be bolted onto the existing gunslinger. If you want to keep guns inferior I am fine with that, thats a setting choice, but then you have to build in a way for the gunslinger to get around those limitations, without having to spend all his resources to just make his weapon of choice not suck.
With the gun rules already set in stone, mitigating their risks can only be done with a class ability.This is, more or less, the only reasonable conclusion.
The only way to make the class not sub-par (at best) is to make it not beholden to the god awful gun mechanics.
Just because Paizo said they aren't being playtested doesn't make them set in stone. Let's just hope they see some of the problems with this and decide to change things up a bit.
Also, I'm gonna need a better reason not to be able to use deadly with guns within close range other than "the devs said so." A person picking up the books and reading them and then reading the gun rules (let's just say they were printed as is right now with no where on them saying DA can't be used within close range) and that NEVER visited the forums wouldn't know u can't use them. As far as I'm concerned, I see no reason why you can't use DA with guns. The fact that you can't is just DUMB! Wtf do you think snipers do? Shoot at the targets foot?
My feeling is that the gun rules are very much still a work in progress.
That's only because the guns presented for the playtest are nigh universally understood to be terrible.
I say nigh because there exist two exceptions - the devs and "quasi-realistic black powder guns from other games" fan boys.
I was really hoping this would be more of a fighter (or better yet, ranger) archetype rather than a base class. It seems trading the fighter's 1st level bonus feat for the free gun and free proficiency with guns would be the first logical step in creating a gun-centric class.
But instead, we get "Grit points" and trick shots. Really? ANOTHER tacked on fiddly point-resource-management exercise that's more complicated than rounds/day (a la rage and bardic performance)? And a buy-in feat for other classes to be able to play in the firearm sandbox? Um.. no thanks.
IMHO, there is no reason why this couldn't be an archetype with some gun combat feats thrown in to make a firearm feat-tree not unlike the Power Attack, Rapid Shot, Combat Expertise or Mounted Combat feat chains. But if it HAS to be a base class, it could be medium combat-based (3/4 BAB/d8 HD, F-/R+/W- saves, etc etc) with special abilities that fit neatly within the existing frameworks of Combat Feats/Rogue Talents rather than yet another subsystem. 3rd ed/PF is all about unified mechanics, not the "table for everything and everything on a table" of AD&D.