My favorite rogue build is easily the half-orc falchion wielder, so I was very curious to see how it would turn out when transposed into the ninja.
Session isn't until tomorrow, but in the meantime here is the build I will be using.
Rules Ignored: Encumbrance, ammo and "standard adventuring supplies"
20 point buy, 32000gp
Human lvl 8 Ninja
AC: 17
HP: 73
Initiative +7
Ki Pool 8
STR 20
DEX 12
CON 12
INT 7
WIS 10
CHA 18
Saves:
FORT 5
REFL 9
WILL 6
Feats:
Improved Initiative
Iron Will
Power Attack
Toughness
Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword (Katana)
Ninja Tricks:
Shadow Clone (1d4+2)
Vanishing Trick 8/r
Slow Reactions
Fast Stealth
+4d6 SA
Traits:
Shadow Child
Reactionary
Gear:
Belt of Giant Str +2
Cloak of Resistance +2
Eyes of the Eagle
Handy Haversack
Headband Cha +2
+2 Mithral Chain Shirt
+2 Bastard Sword(Katana)
Masterwork Short Composite Bow (+3)
Attacks:
Bastard Sword (Katana)
(Without PA) +14/+9 1d10+9 (+4d6 SA)
(With PA) +12/+7 1d10+15 (+4d6 SA)
Shortbow
+8/+3 1d6+3 (+4d6 SA)
Tactics are to Shadow Clone each encounter, get into flanking position and PA away. If things look ugly, then Vanish and tumble to regain positioning. The party also has no rogue so I'd attempt to locate and disable what I can.
The glaring issue in this is the horrible AC of course, but I'm putting my faith in vanish and shadow clone to minimize that worry, and Toughness.
As said, this won't be until tomorrow but I figured I'd post this up now and maybe get some critique on the build. I didn't post skills but Stealth, Perception, Acrobatics and Disable Device are all maxed.
Also since I'll actually be the player during this I likely won't be able to give round by round statistics, but I will present overall encounter summaries and my thoughts regarding the class.
Human lvl 8 Ninja
AC: 17
HP: 73
Initiative +7
Ki Pool 8
If you are only having 12 Dex, why light armor? Why not Meduim (can't afford a feat/dip)?
Why +2 armor =4K gp, why not +1 armor and a +1 Ring of protection=3 K gp?
Tactics are to Shadow Clone each encounter, get into flanking position and PA away. If things look ugly, then Vanish and tumble to regain positioning. The party also has no rogue so I'd attempt to locate and disable what I can.
As said, this won't be until tomorrow but I figured I'd post this up now and maybe get some critique on the build. I didn't post skills but Stealth, Perception, Acrobatics and Disable Device are all maxed.Also since I'll actually be the player during this I likely won't be able to give round by round statistics, but I will present overall encounter summaries and my thoughts regarding the class.
Wait, you can only disable non-magical traps: remember you don't have trapfinding class feature.
Finding them you can do at least.
If you are only having 12 Dex, why light armor? Why not Meduim (can't afford a feat/dip)?Why +2 armor =4K gp, why not +1 armor and a +1 Ring of protection=3 K gp?
Wait, you can only disable non-magical traps: remember you don't have trapfinding class feature.
Finding them you can do at least.
Call the light armor a stylistic preference.
Your remark about the armor and ring does make sense though, I'll switch it.
As for the trapfinding issue I am well aware, but not all traps are magical after all.
Also, at level 8 17 vs 21 won't count as much as movement ability; certainly not worth 2 feats / losing out on better ninja skills.
Indeed. I did something I only do with Barbarians really with this, I ignored my AC for the most part. Theoretically, I could of ignored far more, but that'd be a bit much I think.
As mentioned, I see little point for trying to increase a Ninjas AC. They are simply going to be hit from an AC perspective, particularly due to their MADness. Though even with my experience of rogues, even THEY will often get hit, as their AC rarely reaches decent levels. Miss chance is where the ninja should shine, and Shadow Clone and Vanish excel at this, thus I've kind of put my eggs in that basket with toughness to help a tad when they break.
Being a pedantic rules lawyer: You're proficient with the short bow. Not the composite short bow.
Check out elves, shadowdancers and assassins for what it looks like when you're proficient in short bows and composite short bows.
Would be great if someone could prove me wrong because I hate that my ninja isn't proficient in composite short bows either.
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Being a pedantic rules lawyer: You're proficient with the short bow. Not the composite short bow.
Check out elves, shadowdancers and assassins for what it looks like when you're proficient in short bows and composite short bows.
Would be great if someone could prove me wrong because I hate that my ninja isn't proficient in composite short bows either.
Shortbow Proficiency = Composite Shortbow Proficiency
Shortbow, Composite: You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a composite shortbow while mounted. All composite bows are made with a particular strength rating (that is, each requires a minimum Strength modifier to use with proficiency). If your Strength bonus is lower than the strength rating of the composite bow, you can't effectively use it, so you take a –2 penalty on attacks with it. The default composite shortbow requires a Strength modifier of +0 or higher to use with proficiency. A composite shortbow can be made with a high strength rating to take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow. Each point of Strength bonus granted by the bow adds 75 gp to its cost. If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a composite shortbow.
For purposes of Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus, and similar feats, a composite shortbow is treated as if it were a shortbow.
For purposes of Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus, and similar feats, a composite shortbow is treated as if it were a shortbow.
Well that is enlightening.
In light of the regained 1k gp from the armor swap, it also means I can adequately +5 the comp shortbow to suit the str modifier now also.
Call the light armor a stylistic preference.
If you are going with optional equipment... "
Brigandine armor consists of metal splints sewed upon canvas, linen or leather and covered with similar materials. Unlike splint mail, the metal splints are wider and lighter, and resemble padded armor until hit. "base cost 250, AC+5, max dex +3, armor check -4. Mithral version bumps movement back to 30, max dex to +5 (should you ever get cat's grace), drops armor check to -1... but stats aside, the style would fit your character, and there is the option of the trait Armor Expert if you want to get rid of that last armor check penalty.
If you are going with optional equipment... "
Brigandine armor consists of metal splints sewed upon canvas, linen or leather and covered with similar materials. Unlike splint mail, the metal splints are wider and lighter, and resemble padded armor until hit. "base cost 250, AC+5, max dex +3, armor check -4. Mithral version bumps movement back to 30, max dex to +5 (should you ever get cat's grace), drops armor check to -1... but stats aside, the style would fit your character, and there is the option of the trait Armor Expert if you want to get rid of that last armor check penalty.
Sadly, by RAW, even if an item is Light armor through Mithral, it still requires the original proficiency, so Medium, which I do not wish to take.
Sadly, by RAW, even if an item is Light armor through Mithral, it still requires the original proficiency, so Medium, which I do not wish to take.
True, but elven chain is light armor. Expensive but light :-)
True, but elven chain is light armor. Expensive but light :-)
Sadly, by RAW, even if an item is Light armor through Mithral, it still requires the original proficiency, so Medium, which I do not wish to take.
Certainly weren't kidding about the expensive haha. The minimal AC gained though is simply not worth the price however. Decent suggestions regardless.
Certainly weren't kidding about the expensive haha. The minimal AC gained though is simply not worth the price however. Decent suggestions regardless.True, but elven chain is light armor. Expensive but light :-)
Sadly, by RAW, even if an item is Light armor through Mithral, it still requires the original proficiency, so Medium, which I do not wish to take.
At higher levels you find it useful. Trust me. My Arcane duelist got one. Besides it's cool :-)
Consider this adapted from Ice Titan's playtest.
Invisible Blades to sneak attack + Flurry of Stars + Rapid Shot (+TWF if you think the AC isn't too high) + Bleeding Attack. Mind you, the fact that your opponents are flatfooted to your attack is nice as well.
Certainly weren't kidding about the expensive haha.True, but elven chain is light armor. Expensive but light :-)
Sadly, by RAW, even if an item is Light armor through Mithral, it still requires the original proficiency, so Medium, which I do not wish to take.
Check it out again.
+2 Mithral Chain Shirt and eleven chain has the same prise and the same ac, +6. (elven cost 50 gp more, no big deal).Differense?
Upgrading to AC 7 cost 1000 gp if you have an elven chain but 5000 gp with a +2 Mithral Chain Shirt.
Upgrading to AC 8 cost 4 000 gp if you have an elven chain
but 12 000 gp with a +2 Mithral Chain Shirt.
Get it :-)
Alright guys, had the session, and it had an... unusual and unfortunate ending.
Talking the Ninja over with my DM we decided on a few "fixes" I have been speaking of in other threads, to see how it rolls. We removed the free ki uses and also altered the round durations of Vanishing Trick/Invisible Blade to half Ninja level and upping their cost to 2 ki.
I won't bore with the details but this was a sidequest the DM placed within our Kingmaker game. Normally I play a Battle Oracle of Gorum, and for this session it was decided he would sit out, taking care of some other business. Enter the Ninja.
The task was to find and retrieve an artifact in a cave.
Party was Witch, Ninja, Paladin, Life Oracle, Summoner
Hill Giant sees us, tosses rocks as surprise round. Misses Paladin.
Initiative is Ninja, Eidolon(Pet), Witch, Summoner, Paladin, Oracle
Round 1:
Ninja shadow clones creating 4 copies of himself, moves up to cave entrance.
Summoner's Pet pounces Hill Giant(1) dealing 35 damage and grapples.
Witch moves and Evil Eyes HG1, HG1 fails
Paladin spirited charges HG1 for 70 damage.
Oracle delays
Summoner delays
Round 2:
Another Hill Giant(2) rushes in with a Cloaker riding it's back.
Cloaker grapples Paladin dealing 10.
HG1 breaks the grapple of the Pet and 5ft steps back.
Ninja stealths forward, triggers an Enervation trap, hits a Clone, down to 3 clones and attempts to attack Cloaker, misses, Cloaker's AoO also misses.
Oracles moves forward and Blesses.
Pet attacks Cloaker for 43 damage and grapples it.
Witch tosses Fireball back at HG1 and HG2, both fail save and take 20 damage, HG1 dies.
Summoner casts Haste.
Paladin drops his lance and draws his longsword, Smites Evil, and crits his attack, Cloaker isn't evil, only deals 11 damage, Cloaker still dies.
Round 3:
HG2 Power Attacks Pet, deals 29 damage.
Ninja acrobatics behind HG2, with Haste he makes it safely, attacks, misses.
Oracle heals Pet for 21
Pet 5ft steps and deals 58 damage to HG2, it's in a great deal of pain.
Pally 5ft steps and attacks outright killing HG2.
Due to the cave and the tight quarters it was difficult for the Ninja to do much, same would go for a Rogue. The key difference being Shadow Clone really saved my bacon.
Since I was only a Human I lacked darkvision and really couldn't actually serve as a scout so I felt pretty useless in that regard. But at the same time, a Rogue would have this same issue if they were Human also. Were I to have taken Forgotten Trick, for 2 ki I could have had darkvision for the hour, which would definitely have helped.
So, 1st Encounter, I'm down to 7 ki.
2nd Encounter, Clay Golem within minutes of previous encounter, Shadow Clones still active at 3.
Initiative: Witch, summoner, Paladin, Ninja, Oracle, Golem
Round 1:
Summoner casts Haste.
Oracle casts Shield of Faith on himself.
Paladin walks in, getting attacked by the now activated golem for 38 damage.
Ninja delays.
Round 2:
Witch moves and Misfortunes Golem, fails the save.
Summoner moves and casts Glitterdust on Golem, fails save.
Paladin crits Golem for 32 damage.
Pet moves and bites Golem dealing 0 damage, couldn't beat DR, fails grab.
Ninja finally acts, using all of his hasted movement to get behind the Golem to flank. Golem can't see so no AoO. Power attacks with sneak attack dealing 39 damage, DR reduces it to 29.
Round 3:
Oracle heals Paladin, due to Clay Golem's side effect the heal fails.
Golem full round attacks Ninja, hits Clone, down to 2 Clones.
Paladin attacks, crits dealing 24.
Pet full rounds, misses a lot, manages to deal 3 damage after DR.
Ninja full rounds still flanking with Paladin, hasted power attack sneak attacks, including a crit, total of 32 damage killing Golem.
Gotta say, I really really really love Shadow Clone. The combination of the Shadow Clones + the Witch's Misfortune, and the Glitterdust REALLY saved my bacon when it full rounded me, managing only a single hit due to the misfortune and said hit merely hitting a Clone.
This fight went significantly better due to the more open area allowing for ample opportunity to take advantage of the power attack sneak attacks.
Never even used a ki point so still at 7.
Sadly... after turning in the artifact, the DM pulled one of those "I'm a dick." things and long story short my character was killed by the current King who happens to actually be a CR 14 Silver Dragon polymorphed to a Human.... he was angry because of what we did and since I wanted to test the waters with a LE char... yea.
Sadly the Ninja met an ill fate but of these two small encounters I must say... I felt good. I felt stronger than a Rogue, yes. But did I feel stronger than my Battle Oracle? No. I felt equal to him.
At the end of the day though, despite Shadow Clone being my savior, it may be a tad much. It is cast as the actual spell Mirror Image and your caster level is your Ninja level so I had 8 minutes of Mirror Image. Perhaps alter this so the Shadow Clone is actually a weaker version of Mirror Image in some manner, maybe duration, cut it down to rounds instead of minutes.
Thoughts?
Consider this adapted from Ice Titan's playtest.
Invisible Blades to sneak attack + Flurry of Stars + Rapid Shot (+TWF if you think the AC isn't too high) + Bleeding Attack. Mind you, the fact that your opponents are flatfooted to your attack is nice as well.
Bleeding Attack wouldn't stack, since multiple sneak attack effects can't ride on one sneak attack.
But it'd be a good fallback to use.
On that note? Level 20 ninja with Hidden Master with that kind of combo using his stat penalty sneak attack effect.
-2/-2((+15)(+15)(+15)+15/+10/+5)
TWF, Rapid Shot, and haste.
6 attacks all on one guy.
Drop your target's STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS and CHA by 10 each.
I don't care what class you are; you're crippled now. Enjoy.
Also it just now struck me that I could have used a ki point to pull off an extra attack at full bab, though admittedly I knew little of what the DM would throw at us etc so I was largely hesitant to spend much beyond the Clones per encounter. Also I didn't really get into a position it'd of been usable, but I'd of probably used it in that final Golem killing attack to make extra sure.
I could've sworn things were done wrong here, but I was proven wrong by my own research. I never knew golems, traps and undead weren't immune to illusion (figment) or illusion (glamer) spells.
Hm.
Consider this adapted from Ice Titan's playtest.
Invisible Blades to sneak attack + Flurry of Stars + Rapid Shot (+TWF if you think the AC isn't too high) + Bleeding Attack. Mind you, the fact that your opponents are flatfooted to your attack is nice as well.
Bleeding Attack wouldn't stack, since multiple sneak attack effects can't ride on one sneak attack.
Yeah, no. The idea there was with 6 attacks to saddle 6 folks with 5 point bleeds along with sneak attack damage. Although I like the idea of Pressure Points 6 times on one target (along with 30d6 sneak attack damage :P )
Yeah, no. The idea there was with 6 attacks to saddle 6 folks with 5 point bleeds along with sneak attack damage. Although I like the idea of Pressure Points 6 times on one target (along with 30d6 sneak attack damage :P )Consider this adapted from Ice Titan's playtest.
Invisible Blades to sneak attack + Flurry of Stars + Rapid Shot (+TWF if you think the AC isn't too high) + Bleeding Attack. Mind you, the fact that your opponents are flatfooted to your attack is nice as well.
Bleeding Attack wouldn't stack, since multiple sneak attack effects can't ride on one sneak attack.
Hey man. Sometimes I am unable to read. Guess I got brain problems!