Sure, you can "succeed", and it will be easy mode for the GM, as you can't fast-travel nor foresee problems like the full casters can, so it becomes a total railroad.Care to explain how a the loss of divination leads to "total railroad?" I'm not seeing the connection.
With casters you can teleport, fly, scry/commune to learn about the enemy/plot, waterwalk and otherwise do whatever you want to get around the "invisible videogame wall". Without any of it, you are at the mercy of the GM allowing you to succeed.
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Having the players NOT be able to skip over challenges because of Teleport style spells is railroading?
The classes he is talking about having are still 6th spell level casters. Not much has changed in that regard.
Summoners get Dim Door by 7th, Tele by 10th, GReater Tele by 13th...
Inquisitor has Divination by 10th..
The standard roles can be filled but the highest power level will be missing.
They can succeed, but it will take a little more thought for the Dm and the party.
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Care to explain how a the loss of divination leads to "total railroad?" I'm not seeing the connection.With casters you can teleport, fly, scry/commune to learn about the enemy/plot, waterwalk and otherwise do whatever you want to get around the "invisible videogame wall". Without any of it, you are at the mercy of the GM allowing you to succeed.
Even with those abilities, you are still at the mercy of the DM. You can go more places and do more things, but it's still up to the DM to decide what the bad guys are up to in the first place, and what you find when you go somewhere, whether you walk (on land or water), fly, or teleport.
I guess he means it would not be as easy for the players anymore. They will have to work for it a little.Or that the DM can say "You're trapped underground and have to find a way out" without the wizard saying "Screw that, Greater Teleport/Plane Shift/Your Mom."
Like sneaking/espionage/interrogation/bribery/Search Checks/slugging it out....that all seems more fun than "abracadabrashoomshoomyshoomshoom! I cast a spell to get out of this room!"
that all seems more funpo-tay-toe, po-tah-toe.
yep
@ wraithstrike: The second question wasn't "OK, how big of a handicap do I give these guys" so much as "How, as a GM, would I tailor the campaign to fit such a party." I guess I should've been clearer in the OP.
@ CoDzilla: Chill superfish. No one is going to come over to your table and force you to play something you don't want to. Like I said, this is a thought exercise. Hypothetical, ya dig? Try to come up with something that's both fun and doesn't have the uber-powerful casters.
The premise you put forth in this post and the first post are two different things.
One is how can I convince people that casters are not needed in a normal game, and the other is how can I set a game up so that casters are not needed.
Admittedly I am now confused about which one you are asking for.
I've been thinking about this all day. Thank god I have a job that allows for a lot of day dreaming. Anyway I came up with the following:
Ranger- Archer w/ composite bow
Elvin Bard- Long sword
Barbarian- Club (ideally Adamantine) (focus on sundering)
Rogue- two short swords
Paladin- Falchion
This give us 1 healer, 1 buffer, 1 trap monkey, 2 scouts/sneaks, and 3 folks that can bring the thunder.
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Since this is about flavor of what folks consider an interesting party, would folks add Race in as well as Class?
My last campaign in 3.5 (Known affectionately as 'The Dwarf Campaign' was all Dwarf (Other than one token Gnome), since it centered around a Clan trying to win find a new home, after being driven out of their lands by a Hobgoblin army.
They were
Urson Ironfist, Dwarf Ranger (Went Horizon Walker/Initiate of the Bow)
Brogan Ironfist, Dwarf Barbarian
Gannon Ironfist, Dwarf Rogue
Brunt Ironfist, Dwarf Fighter
Stolht, Gnome Warmage
There were a few NPCs here and there (Brunt was actually a floating NPC, who we kept an open slot for drop-in players, since we have quite a few who can't keep to a regular game, but loved the story. I think he had 4 or 5 folks portray him, when I wasn't.
Note, no Cleric, not until Stohlt took Leadership, and met a Cleric of Garl Glittergold, Gimlet,who joined the party.
A few other NPCs would join, family members, rescued from Duergar dungeons, found in taverns across the lands. The game was also about reuniting their scattered family.
Note, no Wizard or Sorc. Folks can argue about what sort of Wizard owns what, and quite a few folks think that direct damage is useless.
I disagree. A Sudden maximized, Empowered Lightning Bolt is nothing to sneeze at. Especially along with an archer pumping out 80-100 damage average (Between the bow and arrows, several D6 energy,Mage-Bane,etc..), a barbarian who hits for similar damage, a fighter likewise and a rogue who actually knew what he was doing,waiting until the heavy-hitters waded in, and THEN took his turn, Flanking with TWF for stupid damage.
A particularly memorable 'Challenge' was a trio of Driders (Warmage,Assassin,Cleric), all on the ceiling, raining down Max Fireballs, Poison arrows and Unholy mayhem. This while the party was busy with a Tannaruk (sp?) incursion into their newly acquired digs.
Yes, this was 3.5, but we are going to convert them (Story isn't finished yet. They are Lvl 13-14, btw).
Without getting into any kind of argument, or calling out anybody's playing/DMing style, I will say that there are many ways to play and/or run this game. My games are heavy on combat, when it happens. My baddies 'swarm' the dangerous guys, when possible, but withing fair knowledge.
Kingmaker Spoiler
Last week, during my Kingmaker game, the party, while in Varnhold (Abandoned town, ala Roaqnoke disappearance) were rather careless, setting a barn on fire...Well, they were being attacked by Crow Swarms, who had blinded 3 of them. The Blinded Cleric summoned a Fire ELemental to protect him... barn full of hay. Anyways, they allerted a tribe of Spriggans to their location. The Spriggans, all with Invisibility potions (Added by me, along with a few other things, the party is a higher power level, being 6 PCs and 2-3 NPCs), snuck up, ambushed them, though a Bear companion, Familiar and the Half-Orc with Scent at least knew that SOMETHING was up.
At one point, the Alchemist was flying, dropping Bombs. I waited until he had attacked, the Spriggans had observed him raining fire upon them, and THEN had some hold their actions, scribbled down by me, to avoid whining about being unfair. Held Shatter spells upon the Alchemist's Bombs... BTW, he laughed , yelled 'Argh! Dammit!' but was good-natured about it: My players usually all are (I weed out unpleasant folks from my games)That, to me, is proper DM knowledge. One escaped (We use the Story cards, and I give the 'bad guys' 2 cards for a game total, the PCs all get one/game), and now the party has a Spriggan Chief to add to their Quickling Rogue from an earlier adventure as a reoccurring villain. Add some Pugwumpis, and I have the makings of a fun and possibly ugly encounter down the road a bit.
Point is, in challenging ANY party, one merely needs to look at th badguys and use appropriate tactics. Playing in a High magic game? there sure are going to be a lot of Anti-Magic getting tossed at the party, which nullifies them. And, this is reasonable (As a DM), since every party is made up of Caster,Caster,Caster...
Parties without the 'Big Gun' casters, but with huge damage output (Like my Dwarf game,for instance), spread the baddies out. All it takes is one round of viewing a Dwarf Barbarian, PA/Cleaving through your friends to realize that you shouldn't all stand side-by-side. Much less
stand around, grouped for a fireball or Alchemist's Bomb.
BTW, for those who care, my Kingmaker Players are: Cavalier,Witch,Alchemist,Inquisitor/Ranger (We started out, wanting to playtest the new classes),Wiz3/Cleric3/MT1...He's not exactly effective,
just added Cleric of Erastil. NPCs usually taken on missions include Fighter-Archer, Fighter-Crossbowman, and Mik-Mek, the party's 'Mascot' Kobold Rogue2/Cav3 (Riding a Thylacene!), now the PC Cav's Cohort.
-Uriel
I removed some posts. Don't pick fights, please.
Bard(Magician)
Bard(Sand Man)
Bard(Arcane Duelist)
Bard(Archivist or Court)
Bard(Normal)
Bard are definitely a much stronger class than they used to be.
Bard(Magician)
Bard(Sand Man)
Bard(Arcane Duelist)
Bard(Archivist or Court)
Bard(Normal)Bard are definitely a much stronger class than they used to be.
LOL. That's a lot of faith in one class. I think I'm going to have to take another look at them. I've never been a fan but we have one in our party now and I can tell when played right they can be fantastic.
Bard(Magician)
Bard(Sand Man)
Bard(Arcane Duelist)
Bard(Archivist or Court)
Bard(Normal)Bard are definitely a much stronger class than they used to be.
I want to do this SO bad.
The Magician on strings (bass), the sandman on wind, the AD on drums, the court bard as lead singer and the normal bard on strings (guitar).
Everyone takes leadership for roadies and groupies.
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Bard(Magician)
Bard(Sand Man)
Bard(Arcane Duelist)
Bard(Archivist or Court)
Bard(Normal)Bard are definitely a much stronger class than they used to be.
I want to do this SO bad.
The Magician on strings (bass), the sandman on wind, the AD on drums, the court bard as lead singer and the normal bard on strings (guitar).
Everyone takes leadership for roadies and groupies.
this party (well, except the archetypes) is something I've been talking about running/playing since 3.0 came out.
It's two games, basically:
The social/talking/polly-princess-dressup game with the primary PC's (the Bards) and classic dungeoncrawling adventurin' with "The Cohorts." It works out (in practice) like the Justice League and Teen Titans. Both do interesting things, but not at the same time, and not in the same manner.
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@Uriel- That all dwarf game sounds like it was a blast! Wish I coulda been there.
@The Bard- Only 1 Arcane Deulist? Maybe it's just me, but having 2 guys in front (tanks) seems to works a lot better, since the baddies can't just go around.