Deadly Aim and Firearms: RAW vs RAI

[Heretek]

So Deadly Aim can not be used with ranged touch attacks.

"The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage."

The general complaint at the moment is that guns can't be used since they are "touch attacks." But are they REALLY touch attacks?

It says that guns "When firing upon a target within a firearm’s first range increment, the attack resolves against the target’s touch AC."

Does that mean it's a touch attack? Why not simply say "the gun fires as a ranged touch attack" then?

Simply put, I think it's safe to say Deadly Aim is INTENDED to be used with Firearms.

This obviously doesn't fix guns, or the gunslinger, but it certainly makes them a little better.

[Kriegsmann55]

Heretek wrote:

So Deadly Aim can not be used with ranged touch attacks.

"The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage."

The general complaint at the moment is that guns can't be used since they are "touch attacks." But are they REALLY touch attacks?

It says that guns "When firing upon a target within a firearm’s first range increment, the attack resolves against the target’s touch AC."

Does that mean it's a touch attack? Why not simply say "the gun fires as a ranged touch attack" then?

Simply put, I think it's safe to say Deadly Aim is INTENDED to be used with Firearms.

This obviously doesn't fix guns, or the gunslinger, but it certainly makes them a little better.

Agreed, obviously the design creators wouldn't have included such an important ability with the class, if it's primary weapon wasn't compatible. When in doubt, it's inevitably up to the GM to decide.

[ProfessorCirno]

I'd have to dig to find the quote, but one of the developers stated flat out that the two don't work together.

Sorry.

[Kriegsmann55]

Again, inevitably it comes down to the GM and the GM's own interpretation because where these pretty books we've been handed to us to play pathfinder with are mere guidelines of how the game is intended to be played and can seemingly be altered on a case by case basis.

[Heretek]

ProfessorCirno wrote:

I'd have to dig to find the quote, but one of the developers stated flat out that the two don't work together.

Sorry.

Are they purposefully trying to doom the class and firearms then? Only through house rules could this possibly be salvaged. Namely, allowed Crossbow Mastery for use with firearms, and allowing deadly aim for use with firearms.

Still doesn't fix grit though...

[Name Violation]

personally letting crossbow mastery work with guns is a good idea.

i think gunslingers should be the only ones with the "hit touch ac" ability and that would make them special

[vuron]

By RAW it's incompatible. The developers acknowledge this is unsatisfactory and promise to issue a patch to the deadly aim ability.

I suspect no PA/DA with touch attacks is a result of 3.x tactics like wraithstrike + PA or god forbid the flask rogue which basically completely destroyed expected DPR totals.

Considering that trade off feats like PA/DA are generally based upon getting more x in return for less y and touch AC is typically abysmally low there is absolutely no negative consequence to using PA/DA every action that you can use a touch attack.

In theory a general rule change could be made but that would significantly enhance the DPR of touch attacks.

[Heretek]

vuron wrote:

Considering that trade off feats like PA/DA are generally based upon getting more x in return for less y and touch AC is typically abysmally low there is absolutely no negative consequence to using PA/DA every action that you can use a touch attack.

In theory a general rule change could be made but that would significantly enhance the DPR of touch attacks.

I disagree here. We are dealing with a class that gets 1 shot only regardless due to the frankly awful excuses for firearms we have to deal with. Even if you took away the touch you are still most likely going to hit since you are a full bab class.

Touch is irrelevant, you'll hit anyway.

[vuron]

Heretek wrote:

vuron wrote:

Considering that trade off feats like PA/DA are generally based upon getting more x in return for less y and touch AC is typically abysmally low there is absolutely no negative consequence to using PA/DA every action that you can use a touch attack.

In theory a general rule change could be made but that would significantly enhance the DPR of touch attacks.

I disagree here. We are dealing with a class that gets 1 shot only regardless due to the frankly awful excuses for firearms we have to deal with. Even if you took away the touch you are still most likely going to hit since you are a full bab class.

Touch is irrelevant, you'll hit anyway.

Firearms don't work currently unless you are 11th level or higher and have 2 feats invested in lightning reload or you have a big string of pistols that you abuse quickdraw to fire one after the other.

The problem with patching a general rule like "No PA or DA on touch attacks" means that now other touch attacks that are compatible with iteratives get Deadly Aim or Power Attack damage.

Now you can create a weapon specific patch that means that firearms are somehow exempt from the general rule but that's completely inelegant.

I suspect due to the outrage against touch attacks in general that we will see firearms target regular AC and this whole debate of Deadly Aim + Ranged Touch will be rendered moot for the time being.

[Heretek]

vuron wrote:

Firearms don't work currently unless you are 11th level or higher and have 2 feats invested in lightning reload or you have a big string of pistols that you abuse quickdraw to fire one after the other.

The problem with patching a general rule like "No PA or DA on touch attacks" means that now other touch attacks that are compatible with iteratives get Deadly Aim or Power Attack damage.

Now you can create a weapon specific patch that means that firearms are somehow exempt from the general rule but that's completely inelegant.

I suspect due to the outrage against touch attacks in general that we will see firearms target regular AC and this whole debate of Deadly Aim + Ranged Touch will be rendered moot for the time being.

I don't see why they couldn't simply add a small exception clause specific to Firearms.

But you are absolutely right, there is no reason to play a Gunslinger until lvl 11, and even then, the REAL question becomes... why aren't you playing a Fighter Archer?

We are asked to playtest a class when frankly, it can't even be played.