I'm attempting the process of creating a homebrew setting which is more gritty in nature. I'm dismantling the magical item economy; and wish to scale the economy down similarly. I'm not looking to be complete simulationist here; just a less "This PC is wandering around with enough gear value on his person to run the economy of a small country".
Anyways, I'm wondering if these answers are already found somewhere in the Pathfinder Game itself, or if there are some suggestions for the question I'm about to ask.
How much does your average laborer make per week? Were talking like; a field hand. A simple laborer.
How about the farm owner? How much would he make? How about at harvest time?
What about smithes? Artisians? Other "Merchant Class" peoples.
What's the cost of living for these various classes of peoples?
I'm just looking for some figures to work out how the economy interacts.
Obviously, PC's transcend that to a degree.
When I look at the price of say, a Masterwork Longsword, how much of that is profit for the crafter? Do the materials REALLY cost 150+ Gold to make?
How is the average blacksmith able to even AFFORD the components for such a thing?
This is sort of a ramble. I apologize if I'm overlooking something in the books that is easy to find. Has anyone else attempted such an undertaking? Or have some suggestions to forward what I'm trying to do?
I'm attempting the process of creating a homebrew setting which is more gritty in nature. I'm dismantling the magical item economy; and wish to scale the economy down similarly. I'm not looking to be complete simulationist here; just a less "This PC is wandering around with enough gear value on his person to run the economy of a small country".
Anyways, I'm wondering if these answers are already found somewhere in the Pathfinder Game itself, or if there are some suggestions for the question I'm about to ask.
How much does your average laborer make per week? Were talking like; a field hand. A simple laborer.
How about the farm owner? How much would he make? How about at harvest time?
What about smithes? Artisians? Other "Merchant Class" peoples.
What's the cost of living for these various classes of peoples?
I'm just looking for some figures to work out how the economy interacts.
Obviously, PC's transcend that to a degree.When I look at the price of say, a Masterwork Longsword, how much of that is profit for the crafter? Do the materials REALLY cost 150+ Gold to make?
How is the average blacksmith able to even AFFORD the components for such a thing?
This is sort of a ramble. I apologize if I'm overlooking something in the books that is easy to find. Has anyone else attempted such an undertaking? Or have some suggestions to forward what I'm trying to do?
The game was made completely for the PC's so it does not make any sense at all once you break the math down.* If you are going to include everyday transactions and not just the PC economy you will have to redo the entire thing.
*The math has been done by several people. I think the last post I read on the issue had a commoner making about 400 gp a year. I am sure what you want can be done, but it will take a lot of math and trouble just for an abstraction. I don't know of anyone that has ever went through the trouble to do so.
PS:That 400 was for a commoner farmer.
The game was made completely for the PC's so it does not make any sense at all once you break the math down.* If you are going to include everyday transactions and not just the PC economy you will have to redo the entire thing.
*The math has been done by several people. I think the last post I read on the issue had a commoner making about 400 gp a year. I am sure what you want can be done, but it will take a lot of math and trouble just for an abstraction. I don't know of anyone that has ever went through the trouble to do so.
PS:That 400 was for a commoner farmer.
I thank you for your reply; and for giving me a place to start looking.
As to the why; one might call myself and my group of players something of "versimilitude nuts". Immersion comes from many subtle cues; and the design philosophy of every GM I've played with as a player; and now as a GM myself; has been instilled (and enjoyed) by my players espouses this idea.
-Idle
Page 159 = list Spell-casting and Service. = see chart and page 163
Page 103 = list Profession ( 1/2 the profession check in gold a week)
The wages vs Equipment does not make since. Common fix i hear is leave weapon and armor as gold. Everything else reduce by 10, so 2 gp become 2 silver.
A simpler option is just have NPC wages x 10.
.......
Sounds like you might want to just reduce everything down by 10. So your game works on the Silver system instead of the gold system.
If you want really poor, reduce it down by 100. So your game works on the copper system instead of the gold system. DarkSun is good example of that.
.......
If you want everything to be real world, and do not mind the Modern economy (which for a high magic world does make better since). Treat every copper as a Dime. Every 1 silver as a Dollar. Every gold as 10 dollar bill. Every Platinum as 100 dollars.
Then just goggle the item in hunting and sporting good, or bass pro shop. There the price.
Personally I think it would be fun to build a more realistic economy, however that's going to turn your game into "Reign of the Tyrannical Land Owners over the Working Slave Populace".
It will be rife with spreadsheets and loan sharks, tax collectors and interest rates.
Say what you will, but Pen, Paper & Calculator RPGs are the wave of the future.
PBP RotTLOotWSP anyone?
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I'm attempting the process of creating a homebrew setting which is more gritty in nature. I'm dismantling the magical item economy; and wish to scale the economy down similarly. I'm not looking to be complete simulationist here; just a less "This PC is wandering around with enough gear value on his person to run the economy of a small country".
I suggest you stay away from this particular tar baby. As central planners of economies the world over have found out setting the prices for things artificially does not work.
Additionally, every game I have played where someone has tried to "fix" the economy has ended up in a total shambles. People do not seem to have a grasp of the interdependencies in the game. Figuring out how much each category of persons makes and spends is a lot of work with no real reward.
Dismantling the magic economy can either have little or a lot of effect depending on how you go about doing it. If you mean to totally remove the sale of any magic item and get rid of any magic item creation then you may be able to have no real effect. Keep in mind though that wizards get scribe scroll for a reason and denying them that ability will affect their contribution to the party.
If you plan to change the cost of magic items in the economy then get ready for your fancy new economy to be wrecked. Changing them up or down will cause problems, serious problems that any moderately intelligent player can abuse for character gain.
Many DMs get hung up on the idea that the common man cannot have access to gold because he is too poor. Do not try to shift to some sort of silver standard. Just rename everything: Tin-->Copper-->Silver-->Gold-->Platinum. So coppers are now tin, silver is copper etc. This changes the name but not the functionality of the game economy.
I could continue to rant but let me close with another warning to not fiddle with the economy. It will not work. The economy is set up to work with the PCs and if you try to set it up to work with the common man then the PCs will get richer not poorer.
I don't know how deeply you want to model your economy, but if you're interested in some easy to digest material on the subject then the series Spice & Wolf is good reading. The main character is a traveling merchant in an early Renaissance European-based world and the author put a lot of work into accurately modeling how a medieval economy worked.
The series has been made into both a manga and an anime, but the original novels they are based on are being published in English as well.
I'll be honest.
I was sorely disappointed when I found out Kingmaker's economy management was so abstract and simplified. I guess I wanted a 50/50 split of TTRPG & Turn Based Strategy (for resource management and large scale battles) :(
(...)Many DMs get hung up on the idea that the common man cannot have access to gold because he is too poor. Do not try to shift to some sort of silver standard. Just rename everything: Tin-->Copper-->Silver-->Gold-->Platinum. So coppers are now tin, silver is copper etc. This changes the name but not the functionality of the game economy.(...)
I have meddled with game economics and I approve of this message;) Seriously, this is good advice. Economics is like meteorology in that things have unforseen knock-on effects. Start tweaking one thing and stuff rapidly spiral out of control.
(and chances are your players want something easy that kinda works, not an economics lecture every time they want to buy house/castle etc)YMMW.
if you tinker , tinker wisely . you can deflate all of the values by moving them down 1 notch and add a new coin like a brass penny ( 10 to 1cp ). I have just started to mess around with the following
1. Just use 10% coinage and add the other 90% in renowned, It acts just like coin but lets you get that 6 figure treasure with a more realistic value.
2. use more trade goods and up their values. This worked well in my bronze age campaign because the pcs had to sell the stuff off and could use other skills to get a bit more loot. I also liked making them micro manage the transport of all their riches.
Btw The coinage does get a little silly IMHO a holy avenger would cost about 1 &1/4 ton of gold. I think that comes to allmost 51million dollars american.
I think the level of realism people are assuming I want is slightly more than I actually want. I'm fine with stable currency; I don't want different coinage for each nation. I don't even mind peasants with gold.
I just want the relative structure of those things to make sense so that PC's purchasing a Masterwork Sword don't make the one blacksmith so filthy rich that making the one sword changes his entire social class while at the same time costing in MATERIALS so much GP worth that it might not actually be able for him to logically purchase the materials in question.
Moreover; is it really the materials which make the sword masterwork, or is it the smith's amazing skill? While I can see the extra cost applied as surcharge for a superior product; the idea of "extra components" without it being say, adamantine or whatever to be sort of ridiculous.
Anyways; thank you to the above posters to illuminate some issues and point me in the right direction.
-Idle
I would assume that most NPC that work as farmhands don't really get paid at all they stay for free in lodging and get there food for free. maybe they'll get a few copper and head to the local tavern where he doesn't get charged the inflated prices that most moneybag-adventurers have to pay.
Assume most NPCs are NOT level one commoners.
if you look Here.
Only the Village Idiot is a level one commoner.
a farmer has a +9 to profession farmer. If he takes 10 thats a 19 on his check so he earns 9 gold and 5 silver a week.
Until he purchases a masterwork hoe for a +2 circumstance bonus to his check. 21 on his check so he earns 10 gold and 5 silver a week.
He might also have the alternate racial trait Heart of the Fields
making his check 22: 11 gold a week! Woot.
Of course he can't farm in the winter at least not crops.
I always recommend A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe from Expeditious Retreat Press for a homebrew toolkit.
There are chapters on the life of workers, the income of various levels of society of different types, an attempt to make construction more reasonable, and an "economic simulator" that tries to add a little more verisimilitude to the economy without going crazy over details.
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I just want the relative structure of those things to make sense so that PC's purchasing a Masterwork Sword don't make the one blacksmith so filthy rich that making the one sword changes his entire social class while at the same time costing in MATERIALS so much GP worth that it might not actually be able for him to logically purchase the materials in question.
The system already works like that. A swordsmith (crafting) will also have profession merchant. Now it is DC 20 to make a masterwork weapon. Assuming he has +2 from stats, +3 from class skill, +3 from skill focus in craft then he starts with +8 before any points. He will want to have a reasonable certainty that he can craft the weapon so that he does not waste materials so he must have at least 8 skill points so that he cannot roll less than 16 (and thus only make no progress).
Since he has 8 skill points in craft we can also assume that in profession merchant (which deals with the business side of his shop) he will have 8 points. Adding +3 for class, +2 from stats, +3 from skill focus then he is at 16 also. So his minimum income roll every week is 17 with an average of 26.5. Assuming the average across 50 weeks then he is earning 13.25 gold per week times 50 weeks = 662.5 gp. Now this represents actual take home money. So he makes more than this and it goes to expenses.
So the economy already works like that.
Now not all smiths will be that skilled. They will just buy their masterwork weapons from the good smith and sell them in the shop. A small town smith will go to the big city once in a while for a special order or to invest some of his funds.
I'm attempting the process of creating a homebrew setting which is more gritty in nature. I'm dismantling the magical item economy; and wish to scale the economy down similarly. I'm not looking to be complete simulationist here; just a less "This PC is wandering around with enough gear value on his person to run the economy of a small country".
This is trickier than you think.
Dividing everything by 10 still leaves you with the PC's walking around with the GDP of a decent sized country, it just has a different number attached.
If the price of magic items drops down too far, magic items would see a lot more use. From a societal point of view, why buy a knight in a suit of armor when you can buy 5 wands of fireballs instead?
Another, simple option would be to look at the Cost of Living rules on p. 405 of the Core Rulebook.
Poor (3 gp/month) is described as the lifestyle of most untrained laborers and commoners.
Average (10 gp/month) is described as the lifestyle of most trained or skilled experts or warriors.
So, if we assume that most Poor are living pretty much break-even, their average income is also 3 gp per month. Likewise, we may assume that most skill professionals make 10 gp per month, maybe the occasional 12 or even (rarely) 15, allowing for the occasional "splurge" spending.
These would be the "take home" funds the characters have available to live on. For the smith, that's about 10 gp per month profit after all costs are factored in, etc.