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My point is, if there are going to be revolver and rifles you CAN'T HAVE flintlock pistols and muskets. There is no way to make both viable weapons unless you set up some sort of arbitrary system where you can't get revolver and rifles AT ALL until some higher level thus forcing people to take revolvers and rifles. Which looking at how they are doing guns now would be totally unsurprising.
Easy fix, simple firearms (muskets, pistols) are Simple Weapons (they really aren't much harder to load/use than crossbows). Make Revolvers and Exotic due to the complexity of their use (hammers, cylinders, etc require more training than 'pack some podwer and a patched ball down a tube.) Also, revolvers should have a smaller damage die because the caliber of the bullet is usally reduced due to the multiple cylinders. (At work now, so I can't check to see if this is the case with Ashiel's suggestions.)
Still disagree with you Cartigan. In the real world, maybe. As it is, you can just give the single shot guns more damage and say that if you made pathfinder revolvers that powerful, their comparatively delicate inner workings would be blown to bits. Hell, you don't even need to say anything except "pistol: 2d4 damage" or whatever other number you decide is appropriate.
Since they exist in the document, I don't see why they need removing if the alternative is to make them worth considering for some characters and situations. This isn't a history textbook, it's a rules supplement for a game that includes studded leather armour (whatever THAT is) and rapier wielding pirates stabbing men with clubs who dress only in crudely worked bear skins. If all that is made to work, why not make older guns work too?
Nebelwerfer, that could work, but I'm not convinced. Revolvers sound simpler if anything and I like that way you can use them as simple weapons.
Easy fix, simple firearms (muskets, pistols) are Simple Weapons (they really aren't much harder to load/use than crossbows). Make Revolvers and Exotic due to the complexity of their use (hammers, cylinders, etc require more training than 'pack some podwer and a patched ball down a tube.) Also, revolvers should have a smaller damage die because the caliber of the bullet is usally reduced due to the multiple cylinders. (At work now, so I can't check to see if this is the case with Ashiel's suggestions.)
This goes against Ashiel's entire design of Guns should be useable by everyone, regardless of proficiency.
I'm in agreement that the pistol should be raised in damage to offset its capacity. All weapons SHOULD have a purpose, they don't of course as many weapons are just flat out better, but they should all have some degree of use, something making them special to make ya go "hey that might work..."
Therefore as is, no one would ever use a pistol. Raising its damage to perhaps 2d4 would give it that special "something".
My point is, if there are going to be revolver and rifles you CAN'T HAVE flintlock pistols and muskets. There is no way to make both viable weapons unless you set up some sort of arbitrary system where you can't get revolver and rifles AT ALL until some higher level thus forcing people to take revolvers and rifles. Which looking at how they are doing guns now would be totally unsurprising.Easy fix, simple firearms (muskets, pistols) are Simple Weapons (they really aren't much harder to load/use than crossbows). Make Revolvers and Exotic due to the complexity of their use (hammers, cylinders, etc require more training than 'pack some podwer and a patched ball down a tube.) Also, revolvers should have a smaller damage die because the caliber of the bullet is usally reduced due to the multiple cylinders. (At work now, so I can't check to see if this is the case with Ashiel's suggestions.)
That doesn't make sense either! Rifles and revolvers are MUCH simpler to use than flintlock pistols. You take a bullet, you put it in the chamber, and you cock and fire. As opposed to measuring black powder into the barrel, packing it, putting in shot, getting whatever lights the charge under the hammer, cocking, and firing.
Revolvers and rifles are simpler to use, have longer range, greater accuracy at range, higher velocity bullets (ie, more damage), and have a greater number of shots per reload.
It's like if Mage Armor and Stoneskin were the same level.
The pistols are priced so that they can be conveniently be puchased by most anyone at 25 gp. The average non-heroic NPC sports 50 gp worth of weaponry, which means they can comfortably support a pistol on their belt and a fine melee weapon in their hand, allowing for the type of swashbuckling I felt a lot of people were looking for. It's comparable in strength to the light crossbow, except you only need one hand to wield it.
The revolver, at 50 gp, will likely be used by the more elite of the world. I was keeping in mind the facts of life while designing them, and those facts are fairly simple. Cost matters. While the difference of 25 gp won't matter much to Player Characters, it does matter to the world.
Historically, inferior weapons have been retained in use due to costs. Fielding a group of 1st level warriors, experts, and adepts with revolvers would cost 25 gp * number of soldiers more than it would to give them all a pistol and a melee weapon.
Likewise, the musket is the poor man's rifle, though it can't be afforded until 2nd nonheroic level by an NPC at a cost of 100 gp. The revolver and rifle are superior in capacity than the pistol and musket, but I included all of these because it doesn't mean they have fallen out of use, just as clubs, daggers, and slings are still used in D&D despite morningstars, swords, and crossbows. Are they favored by PC-classed characters past low levels? Not usually. Does that mean they're obsolete for the whole world? Probably not.
That's one of the issues I see with the Golarion firearms. They don't make any sense from either a macro (world) or micro (PC) point of view, for reasons I've noted earlier in this thread (the long and short of it is they wouldn't be used by NPCs, wouldn't be used by PCs, and can only exist for 1 PC class out of about 18, so it's hardcore metagaming, verisimilitude breaking, silliness; but they're calling it "flavor").
Playing Commentary
This has actually worked out just as intended in the playtest game I reported a bit earlier. To introduce the firearms into the campaign my group has been running (it had 3.5 PF Firearms, but we're using these now instead), the party had to recover a wagon loaded with imported firearms that was ambushed and stolen by goblins. The goblins, being fond of fire and chaos, loved these new magic thunder weapons. In the game we had 1 paladin (tank), 1 fighter (archer/dps), 1 bard (off-tank/support), 1 gunslinger (ranged/dps).
We got to encounter goblins wielding shortbows (as in the Bestiary) and goblins wielding pistols (25 gp), and goblins wielding dogslicers and shields (gobbie-tanks!). The goblins popped a shot, reloaded, archers fired and fired, tanks slowed the party. When the party closed, the goblins fired a last shot and then drew steel!
After the encounters, the paladin decided it would be ideal to have one of these pistols, and asked to keep one instead of selling them off. His reasoning was simple, and efficient. He used a sword & board (hammer technically) and wouldn't have time to sit there shooting all day, but it would make for a great opening shot before dropping it and then charging into melee. This was exactly what the pistol was intended for, and he realized it while playing without prompting. He looked at what it did, and decided he could use that.
Finally, I'm hesitant to increase the damage because pistols and muskets are intended to be similar in value to the light and heavy crossbows, but with different pros and cons, and currently I think they do a decent job of it.
Summary: In short, the Pistol and Musket are the Club and Greatclub of firearms. PCs aren't intended to use them for very long, but they have their place in a campaign world. I wrote the firearms rules under the assumption that not just PCs would be using firearms. Thus, PCs are intended to use Revolvers and Rifles when they can, while NPCs will (at lower levels) be more commonly using Pistols and Muskets; and given the way the game assumes that the vast majority of the world is 1st level NPC classed characters, this seems to make sense to me.
I would like to continue discussing it with you guys, however. ^-^
The pistols are priced so that they can be conveniently be puchased by most anyone at 25 gp. The average non-heroic NPC sports 50 gp worth of weaponry, which means they can comfortably support a pistol on their belt and a fine melee weapon in their hand, allowing for the type of swashbuckling I felt a lot of people were looking for. It's comparable in strength to the light crossbow, except you only need one hand to wield it.
The revolver, at 50 gp, will likely be used by the more elite of the world. I was keeping in mind the facts of life while designing them, and those facts are fairly simple. Cost matters. While the difference of 25 gp won't matter much to Player Characters, it does matter to the world.
Historically, inferior weapons have been retained in use due to costs. Fielding a group of 1st level warriors, experts, and adepts with revolvers would cost 25 gp * number of soldiers more than it would to give them all a pistol and a melee weapon.
Likewise, the musket is the poor man's rifle, though it can't be afforded until 2nd nonheroic level by an NPC at a cost of 100 gp. The revolver and rifle are superior in capacity than the pistol and musket, but I included all of these because it doesn't mean they have fallen out of use, just as clubs, daggers, and slings are still used in D&D despite morningstars, swords, and crossbows. Are they favored by PC-classed characters past low levels? Not usually. Does that mean they're obsolete for the whole world? Probably not.
That's one of the issues I see with the Golarion firearms. They don't make any sense from either a macro (world) or micro (PC) point of view, for reasons I've noted earlier in this thread (the long and short of it is they wouldn't be used by NPCs, wouldn't be used by PCs, and can only exist for 1 PC class out of about 18, so it's hardcore metagaming, verisimilitude breaking, silliness; but they're calling it "flavor").
I see where you are coming from now. We are all looking at this from a PC perspective, namely "why would I ever use this?" but from a world perspective, it is very much usable.
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My point is, if there are going to be revolver and rifles you CAN'T HAVE flintlock pistols and muskets. There is no way to make both viable weapons unless you set up some sort of arbitrary system where you can't get revolver and rifles AT ALL until some higher level thus forcing people to take revolvers and rifles. Which looking at how they are doing guns now would be totally unsurprising.Easy fix, simple firearms (muskets, pistols) are Simple Weapons (they really aren't much harder to load/use than crossbows). Make Revolvers and Exotic due to the complexity of their use (hammers, cylinders, etc require more training than 'pack some podwer and a patched ball down a tube.) Also, revolvers should have a smaller damage die because the caliber of the bullet is usally reduced due to the multiple cylinders. (At work now, so I can't check to see if this is the case with Ashiel's suggestions.)That doesn't make sense either! Rifles and revolvers are MUCH simpler to use than flintlock pistols. You take a bullet, you put it in the chamber, and you c@## and fire. As opposed to measuring black powder into the barrel, packing it, putting in shot, getting whatever lights the charge under the hammer, cocking, and firing.
Revolvers and rifles are simpler to use, have longer range, greater accuracy at range, higher velocity bullets (ie, more damage), and have a greater number of shots per reload.
It's like if Mage Armor and Stoneskin were the same level.
My suggestion was assuming that cartridges were not being used for the rifle or revolver. Sure, you make them breech-loading or magazine weapons, then yes, they would be much simpler. However, if the loading processes are the same, the additional complexity of the firing mechinsm for a revlover would warrant extra training.
I see where you are coming from now. We are all looking at this from a PC perspective,...
Exactly. ;)
See, we have things like clubs, quarterstaffs, and slings in the PHB, but most PCs don't use them realistically; especially past the lowest levels. Slings are arguably amazing, up until you could have multiple attacks per round; but almost every PC I make carries one from 1st level.
Quarterstaffs are the poor man's double weapon, or the poor man's 2 handed weapon, and clubs are the poor man's mace and throwing weapon. It wouldn't be surprising to encounter a group of gnolls wielding slings and clubs (in fact, slings make a cheap and easy method for them to get ranged attacks at longer distances with their strength modifiers).
An ogre could easily use clubs and slings as a very nasty ranged weapon (ack, beware the 1d6+5 ogre sling-shot!). Even still, you don't see PCs wielding clubs and slings. :P
Fun Fact: Quarterstaffs are very light weapons (in terms of weight) that you can receive full Power Attack benefits with and dual wielding (arguably you would gain a 3 for 1 benefit on your primary attacks with the 2 handed double weapon, and half on your off-hand strike). The penalties associated with double weapons only apply to attack rolls (at least as written), meaning that 2-handed double weapons are ideal for those who want to combine Power Attack and the Two Weapon Fighting chain; and quarterstaffs can get you there without a feat.
A staff-fighter can specialize in quarterstaffs, receiving the benefits to both ends of the weapon, take power attack gaining up to a +18 to damage on main hand and +6 to damage on off-hand, up to +5/+5 from weapon training, +2/+4 from specialization, full strength bonus on primary and off-hand attacks (double slice), and possibly two-weapon rend for another 1d10 + StrMod * 1.5; and then a +5 on top of it from weapon enhancements.
They can get pretty awesome, they can.
/tangent
Both of you two are kind of missing the point.
You sort of want rules for each of the following :
Flintlock (Pistol/Rifle)
Scatter Gun (Musket)
Cap & Ball Revolver (Pistol/Rifle)
Cartridge Revolver (Pistol/Rifle)
Cartridge Scatter Gun (Shotgun)
Cartridge Lever-Action (Rifle)
Then you want to set price based on what's available.
If all that's available is flintlocks & muskets, then those are expensive.
If cap & ball tech is available, then that's expensive and flintlocks & muskets are cheap.
If Cartridges are available, then they are expensive and cap & ball is cheap and flintlock/scatter gun is dirt cheap.
I think that would actually solve the issue of firearms at 1st level. If C&B revolver tech is available, it's the 1000gp gun. The flintlock/scatter gun is a tenth of that (100gp) and sucks in general. So your gunslinger uses flintlocks until he can save up for a C&B revolver at level 4 or 5.
Fun Fact: Quarterstaffs are very light weapons (in terms of weight) that you can receive full Power Attack benefits with and dual wielding (arguably you would gain a 3 for 1 benefit on your primary attacks with the 2 handed double weapon, and half on your off-hand strike). The penalties associated with double weapons only apply to attack rolls (at least as written), meaning that 2-handed double weapons are ideal for those who want to combine Power Attack and the Two Weapon Fighting chain; and quarterstaffs can get you there without a feat.
A staff-fighter can specialize in quarterstaffs, receiving the benefits to both ends of the weapon, take power attack gaining up to a +18 to damage on main hand and +6 to damage on off-hand, up to +5/+5 from weapon training, +2/+4 from specialization, full strength bonus on primary and off-hand attacks (double slice), and possibly two-weapon rend for another 1d10 + StrMod * 1.5; and then a +5 on top of it from weapon enhancements.
They can get pretty awesome, they can.
/tangent
*blink blink*
*Hurriedly writes concept down*
My suggestion was assuming that cartridges were not being used for the rifle or revolver. Sure, you make them breech-loading or magazine weapons, then yes, they would be much simpler. However, if the loading processes are the same, the additional complexity of the firing mechinsm for a revlover would warrant extra training.My point is, if there are going to be revolver and rifles you CAN'T HAVE flintlock pistols and muskets. There is no way to make both viable weapons unless you set up some sort of arbitrary system where you can't get revolver and rifles AT ALL until some higher level thus forcing people to take revolvers and rifles. Which looking at how they are doing guns now would be totally unsurprising.Easy fix, simple firearms (muskets, pistols) are Simple Weapons (they really aren't much harder to load/use than crossbows). Make Revolvers and Exotic due to the complexity of their use (hammers, cylinders, etc require more training than 'pack some podwer and a patched ball down a tube.) Also, revolvers should have a smaller damage die because the caliber of the bullet is usally reduced due to the multiple cylinders. (At work now, so I can't check to see if this is the case with Ashiel's suggestions.)That doesn't make sense either! Rifles and revolvers are MUCH simpler to use than flintlock pistols. You take a bullet, you put it in the chamber, and you c@## and fire. As opposed to measuring black powder into the barrel, packing it, putting in shot, getting whatever lights the charge under the hammer, cocking, and firing.
Revolvers and rifles are simpler to use, have longer range, greater accuracy at range, higher velocity bullets (ie, more damage), and have a greater number of shots per reload.
It's like if Mage Armor and Stoneskin were the same level.
What additional complexity would there be even in the more primitive revolvers compared to a flintlock?
*blink blink*
*Hurriedly writes concept down*
Heheh. A few other notes.
While I'm sure many might disagree with it, as written, double weapons only apply the attack penalties of dual-wielding, and you're allowed to make off-hand attacks with the weapon. This means that, as written, you should receive full strength and power attack benefits on the main hand, and 1/2 on off hand attacks (because off-hand attacks specifically have this quality), but double slice brings this up to your full strength modifier.
So a fighter with a +4 strength modifier and a -3 from Power Attack, and Double Slice, should have the following damage routine: 1d6+6+9 main, 1d6+4+3 off hand. When you factor in specialization, weapon training, and so forth, you can see that a staff-fighter is a very dangerous thing indeed; though with an EWP feat, you could get the double-sword or double-scimitar for higher critical chances (which is nice), but that costs a feat; and such weapons are relatively rare.
Plus you get to beat people with a stick!
More fun staff-fighting..
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What additional complexity would there be even in the more primitive revolvers compared to a flintlock?My suggestion was assuming that cartridges were not being used for the rifle or revolver. Sure, you make them breech-loading or magazine weapons, then yes, they would be much simpler. However, if the loading processes are the same, the additional complexity of the firing mechinsm for a revlover would warrant extra training.My point is, if there are going to be revolver and rifles you CAN'T HAVE flintlock pistols and muskets. There is no way to make both viable weapons unless you set up some sort of arbitrary system where you can't get revolver and rifles AT ALL until some higher level thus forcing people to take revolvers and rifles. Which looking at how they are doing guns now would be totally unsurprising.Easy fix, simple firearms (muskets, pistols) are Simple Weapons (they really aren't much harder to load/use than crossbows). Make Revolvers and Exotic due to the complexity of their use (hammers, cylinders, etc require more training than 'pack some podwer and a patched ball down a tube.) Also, revolvers should have a smaller damage die because the caliber of the bullet is usally reduced due to the multiple cylinders. (At work now, so I can't check to see if this is the case with Ashiel's suggestions.)That doesn't make sense either! Rifles and revolvers are MUCH simpler to use than flintlock pistols. You take a bullet, you put it in the chamber, and you c@## and fire. As opposed to measuring black powder into the barrel, packing it, putting in shot, getting whatever lights the charge under the hammer, cocking, and firing.
Revolvers and rifles are simpler to use, have longer range, greater accuracy at range, higher velocity bullets (ie, more damage), and have a greater number of shots per reload.
It's like if Mage Armor and Stoneskin were the same level.
Well, you would probably have to use a wheel lock with the revolver rather than a much simpler flint- or match-lock mechanism with a simple pistol or musket.
*blink blink*
*Hurriedly writes concept down*
Heheh. A few other notes.
While I'm sure many might disagree with it, as written, double weapons only apply the attack penalties of dual-wielding, and you're allowed to make off-hand attacks with the weapon. This means that, as written, you should receive full strength and power attack benefits on the main hand, and 1/2 on off hand attacks (because off-hand attacks specifically have this quality), but double slice brings this up to your full strength modifier.
So a fighter with a +4 strength modifier and a -3 from Power Attack, and Double Slice, should have the following damage routine: 1d6+6+9 main, 1d6+4+3 off hand. When you factor in specialization, weapon training, and so forth, you can see that a staff-fighter is a very dangerous thing indeed; though with an EWP feat, you could get the double-sword or double-scimitar for higher critical chances (which is nice), but that costs a feat; and such weapons are relatively rare.
Plus you get to beat people with a stick!
More fun staff-fighting..
Kilik is so damn cheap, my brother would just spam that one spinny thingy he does. Then again I'd usually play Nightmare and ring him out first attack haha.
EDIT: Also, so I'm dabbling with this in HeroLab and according to this, I jsut built a lvl 8 Fighter, he's got a +5 to STR, specializations, TWF and double slice, accoridng to herolab hes dishing out 1d6+15/1d6+15
Main AND offhand.
Kilik is so damn cheap, my brother would just spam that one spinny thingy he does. Then again I'd usually play Nightmare and ring him out first attack haha.
Heheh, my brother is beastly with Nightmare. Nightmare is so difficult for newbies, 'cause you have to chain his attacks together smoothly (it's hard to just swing that greatsword around wildly, you gotta have 'dat continuous flow); but in the hands of an experienced user, Nightmare is amazingly hard to defend against or break past his kill-zone.
I tend to prefer using Kilik or the girl with the glaive with the weapon that returns life to you when you hit with it, and then preform rapid combos that hit frequently for small portions of life, and try to beat them through a combination of a butt-kicking and attrition.
My main guy is Tsurugi for sure though. ;)
/tangent again
EDIT: Also, so I'm dabbling with this in HeroLab and according to this, I jsut built a lvl 8 Fighter, he's got a +5 to STR, specializations, TWF and double slice, accoridng to herolab hes dishing out 1d6+15/1d6+15
Main AND offhand.
Hmmm, that's possibly correct. Double Slice says it allows you to apply your strength modifier to the damage instead, allowing you to ignore the 1/2 strength modifier penalty for off-hand attacks. It could indeed be argued that the 1.5 multiplier of a 2 handed weapon applies; which makes this concept very appealing for those who want to invest the feats in a strength-based two-weapon fighter.
One quick question for me. I'm starting a build for a level 3 character, two levels gunslinger and one level alchemist who is going to be proficient with revolvers as his main equipment. I was reading the Firearm class feature and I see that it allows two revolvers. If a person decides to choose that over the rifle, do they get Two Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat or do they have to buy it themselves?
One quick question for me. I'm starting a build for a level 3 character, two levels gunslinger and one level alchemist who is going to be proficient with revolvers as his main equipment. I was reading the Firearm class feature and I see that it allows two revolvers. If a person decides to choose that over the rifle, do they get Two Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat or do they have to buy it themselves?
They have to spend the feat normally if they wish to dual wield without penalties. However, many gunslingers (particularly those without rapid reload) may prefer to immediately begin collecting ranged feats such as Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot (this one is huge), feats like Rapid Shot, and so forth. Ergo having a pair of revolvers will allow you to continue shooting without the need to reload, much longer than you would otherwise, and without spending your 1st level deed on Lock & Load.
So it gives the gunslinger a bit more leeway in how they build their characters. For my playtest sniper gunslinger, I began play with a musket and purchased a revolver with 50 gp of my 105 starting gold, purchased some light armor, and had some gold left over to purchase some adventuring gear (such as a mule, food, extra ammo, etc).
EDIT: The dual-revolvers w/out two weapon fighting allows you to carry a pair, fire up to 12 shots, spend 1 round reloading both with quick-load cylinders (move action for each) and then resume fighting. This allows the low-level gunslinger to keep acting in combat early on, while giving them the option to take up Rapid Reload later on for high level full-attack frenzies.
My question is, can you reload holding two pistols? Don't you need a free hand to reload? So if you are duel wielding pistols, do you need to drop one to reload the other?
Quick Update: As promised, I have uploaded the latest version of the Gunslinger to the Heroes of Alvena website under the Expanded Classes page.
The current version is 1.1.4, and it is mostly just been refinished a bit with some errata, including the option for dual-wielders to shoot twice when using rolling dodge when they would get their first iterative attack, as well as some amendments made to some of the abilities to make them easier to understand where applicable.
The firearms have been updated to 60ft range for the handguns (pistols/revolvers), 120 ft range for both muskets and rifles, 30ft range for scatterguns, 15 ft for short-scatterguns, and I added a blunderbuss by request at 100 gp, scattergun damage, 1 shot capacity. Finally, I added the option to begin with a blunderbuss instead of revolvers or a rifle, and instead of a flat 50 shots, you get 5 gp worth of ammunition to begin play with.
Gunslinger abilities that grant grit also grant +1 grit at 8th and 16th level, allowing you to spend 1 round to regenerate 3 grit at 16th level, which will assist in keeping up the pace with the core classes in terms of your abilities (since by that level you will need to be burning fairly solid amounts of grit to keep a steady flow).
Hope everyone likes it. I'll be adjusting more of it as needed, and hopefully releasing some more deeds and such soonish.
My question is, can you reload holding two pistols? Don't you need a free hand to reload? So if you are duel wielding pistols, do you need to drop one to reload the other?
Officially as far as mechanics go, no, you may reload up to two guns per round as a move action, even if you're holding them. This is akin to holding one gun with your arm while you reload one, then swapping them to reload the other. This likewise is assumed with any gun you wield, so if you're wielding short scatterguns with shotgun nightmare, you can reload up to 2 shots in each if you spend 2 move actions and 2 grit when reloading.
My question is, can you reload holding two pistols? Don't you need a free hand to reload? So if you are duel wielding pistols, do you need to drop one to reload the other?Officially as far as mechanics go, no, you may reload up to two guns per round as a move action, even if you're holding them. This is akin to holding one gun with your arm while you reload one, then swapping them to reload the other. This likewise is assumed with any gun you wield, so if you're wielding short scatterguns with shotgun nightmare, you can reload up to 2 shots in each if you spend 2 move actions and 2 grit when reloading.
Well, in the case of pistols + rapid reload, shouldn't it be just two free actions? Either way, I seem to remember in 3.5 needing a free hand, so I'm glad I've got the new way.
Well, in the case of pistols + rapid reload, shouldn't it be just two free actions? Either way, I seem to remember in 3.5 needing a free hand, so I'm glad I've got the new way.My question is, can you reload holding two pistols? Don't you need a free hand to reload? So if you are duel wielding pistols, do you need to drop one to reload the other?Officially as far as mechanics go, no, you may reload up to two guns per round as a move action, even if you're holding them. This is akin to holding one gun with your arm while you reload one, then swapping them to reload the other. This likewise is assumed with any gun you wield, so if you're wielding short scatterguns with shotgun nightmare, you can reload up to 2 shots in each if you spend 2 move actions and 2 grit when reloading.
According to the firearm rules in the document, exotic proficiency shortens the reload time for 1 shot to a move action (from a full-round), and rapid reload further shortens it to a swift action. This means an average person reloads a revolver at 1 shot/round, 2/round if proficient, or 3/round if you have both feats, or 4-6/round if you have Lock & Load and spend 1-3 grit.
If you think of this in terms of games like Deadlands (where you reload between 1-3 shots depending on how skilled you are), it makes good sense, as reloading 3 shots per round (using standard, move, and swift) into a 6 cylinder gun is pretty fair. However...
Quick-Load cylinders cost 10 gp, 1 lb, and can be pre-loaded with ammunition and can be loaded in the time it takes one shot, so if you're a hardcore gunman, you'll probably drag quite a few of these babies around for those extended fights.
I just finished downloading and reading the newest model of your alpha and all I can say is...well, looks pretty fine to me. I like that you added in the little bit on your four (now that I re-read this after realizing my mistake >.>) deeds that regain grit go up after a certain amount of levels. I think that makes the progression of using them balanced as you're going to be using more of them in later levels anyway.
Now all we need is some more deeds :D. I already have a couple in my mind, but I'll wait and see on getting an ok before spewing out nonsense.
Oh yes, and I'm near finished with my build. It's not going to be in an actual Pathfinder game, it's taking place in a d20 modern, but the DM is allowing my build so..we'll see how it all works out! Now I have to wait another week...*gets excited*
Just opened up the 1.1.4 version to build a level 5 NPC for a campaign and came across something that I do have a problem with in this product (GASP!)
I would like it if, in the next iteration, the deeds were organized alphabetically. I was deciding on what type of character to build, but when I was looking for a specific deed I found that its placement was (seemingly) random.
Also, is there an intended "extra deed" feat? It seems like it would be appropriate, but just wondering.
-The Beast
Also, is there an intended "extra deed" feat? It seems like it would be appropriate, but just wondering.
I'd just assume so, since every other abilitiy has the same.
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Just wanted to say: your gunslinger blows the official playtest version out of the water. Now all I need to do is jerry rig this into HeroLab for my wife...
Just wanted to say: your gunslinger blows the official playtest version out of the water. Now all I need to do is jerry rig this into HeroLab for my wife...
Haha, already did it. Granted I ignore any special abilities and just fill them in later etc but I get the big things, skill points, hd, saves etc.
I just finished downloading and reading the newest model of your alpha and all I can say is...well, looks pretty fine to me. I like that you added in the little bit on your four (now that I re-read this after realizing my mistake >.>) deeds that regain grit go up after a certain amount of levels. I think that makes the progression of using them balanced as you're going to be using more of them in later levels anyway.
Now all we need is some more deeds :D. I already have a couple in my mind, but I'll wait and see on getting an ok before spewing out nonsense.
Oh yes, and I'm near finished with my build. It's not going to be in an actual Pathfinder game, it's taking place in a d20 modern, but the DM is allowing my build so..we'll see how it all works out! Now I have to wait another week...*gets excited*
Hope your game goes well. ^-^
Just opened up the 1.1.4 version to build a level 5 NPC for a campaign and came across something that I do have a problem with in this product (GASP!)
I would like it if, in the next iteration, the deeds were organized alphabetically. I was deciding on what type of character to build, but when I was looking for a specific deed I found that its placement was (seemingly) random.
Also, is there an intended "extra deed" feat? It seems like it would be appropriate, but just wondering.
-The Beast
Yes, the final version (or next version, maybe) will indeed have all the deeds in alphabetical order. The are currently in the order they were written in, but I will be re-arranging them soonish.
Also, yes, I was thinking of an extra deeds feat as well, and possibly an Extra Grit feat, and possibly some feats for specializing (not as in weapon-specialization feats) in certain types of guns, or in using guns a certain way (such as feats intended for swashbuckling).
I just finished drawing up some concept art to put into the document (since I doubt a piece of Wayne Reynolds' art will fall from heaven and land on my desk), so if I can get it scanned (or even jury-rig a digital camera shot), I might be able to post some art with it.
Just wanted to say: your gunslinger blows the official playtest version out of the water. Now all I need to do is jerry rig this into HeroLab for my wife...
Thank you very much. ^.^
I cannot say thank you enough to everyone that has provided such nice comments in this thread, but thanks again.Hopefully Paizo will find it useful in whatever they do (I'll openly admit I'd love it if they just said, "Hey, mac, we like yer stuff, 'yer in". Ahhh, such childish fantasies for an adult. ^.^").
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Just wanted to say: your gunslinger blows the official playtest version out of the water. Now all I need to do is jerry rig this into HeroLab for my wife...
Good. Should share it with those of us less HeroLab savvy when ya'll are done with it. ^-^ Either you or Heretek.
Definitely going to be the one I'm using until the next version of the Playtest comes out.
Else that or when Paizo comes to Ashiel, I can share the glory of all of you in being able to say we helped with the Playtest of the class.
Which reminds me:
Playtest went amazingly well and I found next to nothing wrong with it. The only thing I did (which wasn't really something mechanically wrong) is an issue that has already been addressed in your newest update - the whole Rolling Shot with revolvers and multi-shots that has been solved now.
So kudos to you for being ahead of me.
Funniest thing that happened though during the session was when Terry (friend of mine playing Paizo's gunslinger) looked to the GM and goes, "Can I use his Gunslinger instead?" I was rolling for a good minute laughing.
Paizo, I love you dearly, so I hope you've taken notice of this genius piece of work. This is your gamer community at work here, so I hope you're taking notes.
Good. Should share it with those of us less HeroLab savvy when ya'll are done with it. ^-^ Either you or Heretek.
I would if I knew how haha. The basic groundwork though is just go into the editor, and make the class specifying the simple things. Any special class abilities I myself don't know how to do. Also go into the weapons tab and add in the firearms much in the same manner and specify they are useable with the Gunslinger you just made.
Anything you're looking for in particular, as far as snipers go?
At the time... no, it was more a vague feeling of pistoleer gunslingers got cool, flashy stuff what about snipers? After having sometime to actually think about it, common sense kicked in. Snipers don't get cool, flashy stuff cause its not a cool, flashy way to kill things (possible exception of the Called shots).
The only thing I came up with during the day was something along the lines of a mild Death attack like from the Assassin PrC
[Unnamed]
The Gunslinger knows that patience is a virtue and the biggest payoff in this profession. She takes her time waiting for the perfect moment to fire an incredibly lethal shot.
The Gunslinger spends at least one round studying her target before making an attack roll. If the attack hits, then for each round that the Gunslinger studied her target, she gains a +2 bonus to damage rolls up to a maximum of +6 after three rounds of study. This ability costs 1 Grit
maybe make a successful attack an auto crit threat if it seems weak, math is far from my strong suit and this is just a general idea form the top of my head :P
[Unnamed]
The Gunslinger knows that patience is a virtue and the biggest payoff in this profession. She takes her time waiting for the perfect moment to fire an incredibly lethal shot.
The Gunslinger spends at least one round studying her target. For each round that the Gunslinger studies her target, she gains a +2 bonus to damage rolls up to a maximum of +6 after three rounds of study. This ability costs 1 Grit
Since you're spending multiple entire rounds studying your target, I wouldn't even make it cost grit.
Just my input,
-The Beast
The only thing I came up with during the day was something along the lines of a mild Death attack like from the Assassin PrC
[Unnamed]
The Gunslinger knows that patience is a virtue and the biggest payoff in this profession. She takes her time waiting for the perfect moment to fire an incredibly lethal shot.
The Gunslinger spends at least one round studying her target before making an attack roll. If the attack hits, then for each round that the Gunslinger studied her target, she gains a +2 bonus to damage rolls up to a maximum of +6 after three rounds of study. This ability costs 1 Gritmaybe make a successful attack an auto crit threat if it seems weak, math is far from my strong suit and this is just a general idea form the top of my head :P
Hmmm, seeing as the concept of aiming could apply to any class, perhaps a feat would do it better. Instead of a gunslinger specific deed, perhaps a feat that went something like this:
Aimed Shot (Combat)
You spend a few extra moments to take a single deadly shot.
Prerequisites: Base Attack +1
Benefit: You may use a standard action to study an opponent, gaining a +2 to hit and damage on your next ranged attack against the target for each round you study, up to a maximum of +6 to hit and damage. When your base attack bonus reaches +6 you may inflict double weapon damage when you attack (so 1d8+4 becomes 2d8+4), and you may increase the multiplier by 1 for each additional 5 points of base attack bonus (x3 at +11, x4 at +16, etc). This bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit and is not multiplied by feats such as Vital Strike.
Might need some work, but it's 12:56am, I got a headache, and I just threw it together. I'll think about it more in the morning. XD
Definitely going to be the one I'm using until the next version of the Playtest comes out.
Else that or when Paizo comes to Ashiel, I can share the glory of all of you in being able to say we helped with the Playtest of the class.
Here's hopin'. ^.^"
Which reminds me:
Playtest went amazingly well and I found next to nothing wrong with it. The only thing I did (which wasn't really something mechanically wrong) is an issue that has already been addressed in your newest update - the whole Rolling Shot with revolvers and multi-shots that has been solved now.
So kudos to you for being ahead of me.
Funniest thing that happened though during the session was when Terry (friend of mine playing Paizo's gunslinger) looked to the GM and goes, "Can I use his Gunslinger instead?" I was rolling for a good minute laughing.
Paizo, I love you dearly, so I hope you've taken notice of this genius piece of work. This is your gamer community at work here, so I hope you're taking notes.
Hah, awesome. Glad you and your friend liked it, and I'm very, very pleased it went well. Please feel free to share any interesting stories about your game, or perhaps what made it stand out to your friend as something fun? I'm sure such information would be useful for both myself and Paizo.
Ok, so I'm definitely not his majesty Wayne Reynolds, but here's a piece of concept art for a magepunk gunslinger that I drew a few hours ago. In her right hand is a rather bulky revolver equipped with a thick bayonet, and in her left hand is a rifle with some dwarf runes running down the barrel. She has a pair of ammo belts, studded gauntlets, a pair of loose britches and some armor spikes; a comfortable cowl and a draconic standard on her shoulder.
On her leg she has a belt with pouches stuffed with potions (probably hard to tell what those are), and a rather heavy set of boots with upturned toes ('cause I thought it was spiffy like that). Her rifle also sports a revolver-based loader.
Here's the concept art, amateur though it is: Concept Gunslinger.
Also, if anyone wants to color it, I suck at coloring so feel free.
Edit: Not sure why, but for some reason the digital version has shortened her and made her wider, which makes her arms and legs look really funny.
Edit 2: I'll check and see if it was my scanner settings tomorrow. I scanned it directly to a memory card, so I didn't notice the oddity immediately.
The art looks good! Very appropriate. Like all the changes. Still awesome, getting more awesome every time.
I absolutely see your point about the primitive guns now. I realise that if they were to be better at something and become usable by high level PCs, they would have to be worse at something else also, since they already do have your their place, and that starts getting complex.
One thing I'm sure they need though,(unless it's already there and I missed it), is a rule saying that they count as the modern version for the purpose of feats and proficiency. I think it makes sense and I don't really care if it doesn't anyway, because I would want to be able to start off using one of the cheap guns (most likely the blunderbuss since it's an option for a starting weapon), take feats to get better at using it and upgrade later to the improved version without a fuss.
I have been working on a variant weapons table designed to rebalance the weapons, and the points you've made about ogres, clubs and slings are most interesting. With the club stats I have been considering, ogres would be bloody horrifying. Now I just have to work out if that's a bad thing.
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Hey great rewrite, been lurking since the thread went up, lol. I had some questions though, and I looked for them again, but I couldn't find them.
So you've taken out the inherent 1st range increment touch attack mechanic to all guns unless you have the Deadeye Shot deed?
If that's not the case (like I said, I searched, but didn't find) then does Deadeye Shot do nothing for you until lv 2 when you get the precision damage?
One last question, could Deadeye Shot be rolled into a full attack? Say I'm dual wielding a sword and revolver. Could I take my attacks with my sword and then take my off-hand attack with Deadeye?
My apologizes if these have been answered before somewhere. Great rewrite again!
Hey great rewrite, been lurking since the thread went up, lol. I had some questions though, and I looked for them again, but I couldn't find them.
So you've taken out the inherent 1st range increment touch attack mechanic to all guns unless you have the Deadeye Shot deed?
If that's not the case (like I said, I searched, but didn't find) then does Deadeye Shot do nothing for you until lv 2 when you get the precision damage?
Yes, firearms work as normal for weapons. Treating firearms as touch attacks makes no sense, since stuff like plate mail actually did protect against gunfire, and padded armor at least gives them something to potentially hit besides you. So Deadeye shot is a nice perk for the Gunslinger, and it's useful right from the get-go.
At 1st-2nd level, I'm pretty much sold that the musket + deadeye is the way to go for dealing direct damage, and it's what my playtest gunslinger in my tabletop and online game has been using. At 1st level it has an average of 7 damage as a ranged touch, and 10.5 damage at 2nd level (due to the +1d6 precision damage); but it's good if your job is dealing damage. You're also going to be relying on your luck to deal solid damage, since you'll have a 2-12 at 1st, and 3-18 at 2nd level, while a fighter with other weapons tends to have a higher minimum damage and can comfortably support 2 attacks at 2nd level.
Revolver uses start out a bit slower in damage, but I'm pretty much sold they're the best path for critical-focused builds and/or full-attack monsters. Once you get Improved Critical, Sniper Shot, and Blinding Shot, you can generate more grit than you spend by full-attacking, since you can get your critical threat to 40% each round for 1 grit, but each critical you confirm will regain 1 grit; meaning that filling foes full of hot revolver-death can set you up quickly for Desperado or Burst Fire.
Shotguns (blunderbuss, scattergun, and short-scattergun) are ideal for up-close and personal fights, and is the closest to a "melee" build, as it basically unloads hurt at close ranges, but it puts you within move->attack distance of your enemies, so I'd recommend some decent armor and probably a high constitution. Might be a good build for a dwarf gunslinger. :)
One last question, could Deadeye Shot be rolled into a full attack? Say I'm dual wielding a sword and revolver. Could I take my attacks with my sword and then take my off-hand attack with Deadeye?
My apologizes if these have been answered before somewhere. Great rewrite again!
Not really because deadeye shot takes a standard action. You can however dual-wield your longsword and revolver as part of a full-attack, and you can use a variety of other abilities (sniper shot, double action, wounding shot, and silver bullet) while dual wielding. Technically, silver bullet can even be applied to your sword-swing, since it specifies attacks (that may be subject to errata, but I can't help but think stabbing and shooting your opponent to overcome damage reduction is kind of cool, and it's not unbalanced).
Notice
The next version of the gunslinger is coming soon. No new deeds yet, but the next version will have all the deeds alphabetized, new/expanded descriptions for the weapons, blunderbusses which can be loaded with improvised scrap for the cost of about 1/10th a pound of gunpowder, gunpowder as a trade good, gunpowder bombs for alchemists (including damage for truly huge quantities of gunpowder, so that GMs can quickly assess the amount of devastation caused if about a half-ton of black powder goes off), and should also include some feats and other material.
This is slowly turning into a miniature sourcebook...
Man, I hope Paizo goes with this (or something VERY VERY similar). This is probably the best set of firearms rules that I have seen (and I have seen a lot).
This thread has gotten A LOT of hits, but I'm certain that there are a lot more lurkers out there. If you are lurking, I urge you to chime in and express your appreciation. Who knows, maybe we can help get Ashiel's gunslinger stuff into Ultimate Combat.
Man, I hope Paizo goes with this (or something VERY VERY similar). This is probably the best set of firearms rules that I have seen (and I have seen a lot).
This thread has gotten A LOT of hits, but I'm certain that there are a lot more lurkers out there. If you are lurking, I urge you to chime in and express your appreciation. Who knows, maybe we can help get Ashiel's gunslinger stuff into Ultimate Combat.
Thank you again Cesare. ^-^
I am lurking, and I appreciate all the feedback.
It feels good to have you lurking about Erik. I hope you enjoy the thread, and if there's anything you'd like to see in particular just let me know and I'll throw something together. Trying to help my favorite RPG company (I feel you guys have the right heart, if you know what I mean).
Just keep doing what you are doing. I will make sure Stephen is aware of this thread, your build, and the various issues raised in this thread.
Sure thing Erik. Also (probably a stupid question but...) who's Stephan? ^-^"
Just keep doing what you are doing. I will make sure Stephen is aware of this thread, your build, and the various issues raised in this thread.
That's probably one of the most promising things I've seen posted from Devs regarding the Gunslinger. :)
Stephen Radney-Macfarland, the second designer on the playtest document and, I'm guessing, the brain behind the gunslinger since he didn't say "Jason".
Stephen Radney-Macfarland, the second designer on the playtest document and, I'm guessing, the brain behind the gunslinger since he didn't say "Jason".
Oh thanks TheBeast. ^.^
Just keep doing what you are doing. I will make sure Stephen is aware of this thread, your build, and the various issues raised in this thread.That's probably one of the most promising things I've seen posted from Devs regarding the Gunslinger. :)
Heh, thanks Mdt. ^.^"
Notice
Ok, I've just released Gunslinger v1.1.8 that is complete with alphabetical deeds, revised firearm descriptions, bayonet add-on options (which combo with pistol whip), trade value for gunpowder, statistics for black-powder bombs (be they dynamite or lots of barrels of powder), and new feats, and I added in the concept art into the pdf.
As always, it can be found on my Heroes of Alvena website, on the Expanded Classes page.
Hope everyone enjoys the newest version. I will probably attempt to add some new deeds on the next update. Please feel free to play around with the mechanics and see what you think.
PS: The militia and military training feats were added because expending a feat for a simple or martial weapon (with the exception of perhaps the longbow) is wasteful, and these feats are nice for both PCs and NPCs. These feats represent basic training, and are effectively automatically possessed by most of the classes.