i believe some of these abilities should have saves, because if i were to take careful aim and hit the wing, the creature automatically falls. this is hard for me to believe. Dragons have gotten shot with such things as arrows and such and they dont fall. that could really make dragon fights easier than before. maybe give the deeds saves or such. or you have to do an amount of damage depending on the size of the creature.
also, does the creature fall all the way to the ground or do they fall so many feat? if you take the whole wing out i can understand that but if not, the creature could (depending on the height) regroup itself and keep airborn.
Not saves, this should be included as an expanded point in the Flight skill rules. For example a anti-air flack barrage would be something I'd expect from a fantasy world that had both dragons/flying monsters and the capacity to make mortars. It makes more sense to add a flight check for getting hit by serious amounts of damage while in the air.
i believe some of these abilities should have saves, because if i were to take careful aim and hit the wing, the creature automatically falls. this is hard for me to believe. Dragons have gotten shot with such things as arrows and such and they dont fall. that could really make dragon fights easier than before. maybe give the deeds saves or such. or you have to do an amount of damage depending on the size of the creature.
This is honestly a problem with the whole philosophy surrounding the implementation of firearms as much as it is a problem with the class ability.
| 5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required. |
Legs or Wings: On a hit, the target is damaged normally
and knocked prone. A flying creature falls. A creature
that is immune to trip attacks is immune to this effect
Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.
So it will never happen.
Legs or Wings: On a hit, the target is damaged normally
and knocked prone. A flying creature falls. A creature
that is immune to trip attacks is immune to this effectSome creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.So it will never happen.
Yeah, I don't think rule inconsistency is really making the point you want.
Yeah, I don't think rule inconsistency is really making the point you want.
Legs or Wings: On a hit, the target is damaged normally
and knocked prone. A flying creature falls. A creature
that is immune to trip attacks is immune to this effectSome creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.So it will never happen.
My point was, forget about using it vs. flying creatures, because it won't work. FAQ it.
My point was, forget about using it vs. flying creatures, because it won't work. FAQ it.Yeah, I don't think rule inconsistency is really making the point you want.
Legs or Wings: On a hit, the target is damaged normally
and knocked prone. A flying creature falls. A creature
that is immune to trip attacks is immune to this effectSome creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.So it will never happen.
Your point is wrong because the ability specifically says it drops flying creatures. But I will FAQ it because they need to not miss the rule inconsistency.
Your point is wrong because the ability specifically says it drops flying creatures. But I will FAQ it because they need to not ignore the rule inconsistency.My point was, forget about using it vs. flying creatures, because it won't work. FAQ it.Yeah, I don't think rule inconsistency is really making the point you want.
Legs or Wings: On a hit, the target is damaged normally
and knocked prone. A flying creature falls. A creature
that is immune to trip attacks is immune to this effectSome creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.So it will never happen.
It also says it doesn't work on creatures immune to trip, like all flying creatures. I'm not arguing the validity of this, just that it's there. RAI says you can hit flying creatures. RAW sasys you can't.
I actually like the idea of taking a dragon out of the air with a hand cannon. It's thematically AWESOME. However, it's not likely to work unless you have a scope.
A dragon's spell/breath range is much farther than that of pistols and rifles. It has no reason to fly so low that you are going to be able to easily hit it with your touch attacks. Even if it does, it won't fall far, so falling damage will be minimal.
If you shoot past your first range increment (a mere 20 or 40 feet) then you have to contend with the dragon's monstrously high natural AC and damage reduction.
I actually like the idea of taking a dragon out of the air with a hand cannon. It's thematically AWESOME.
It's also completely and totally internally inconsistent. Why can't you do it with a sling, bow, crossbow, or magic?
I actually like the idea of taking a dragon out of the air with a hand cannon. It's thematically AWESOME.It's also completely and totally internally inconsistent. Why can't you do it with a sling, bow, crossbow, or magic?
Um, you can provided the dragon fails a fly check. In any event, such weapons can't normally get past the thickened scales (natural armor and DR) because they don't have enough force behind them. Guns and bullets do.
This makes sense to me.
The only thing that seems inconsistent is that magic should be able to bring a dragon down much like a WELL PLACED bullet FROM A HIGH LEVEL CHARACTER.
Also may i point out that specific trumps general. If something can't be done and something says it can be done in a specific way, then it can
That's an awfully big assumption.
I actually like the idea of taking a dragon out of the air with a hand cannon. It's thematically AWESOME.It's also completely and totally internally inconsistent. Why can't you do it with a sling, bow, crossbow, or magic?Um, you can provided the dragon fails a fly check. In any event, such weapons can't normally get past the thickened scales (natural armor and DR) because they don't have enough force behind them. Guns and bullets do.
This makes sense to me.
You shoot lots of dragons with flint-lock pistols in your spare time?
Queue up the Gunslinger Dragon Killer.
Far -Reaching Sight
Aura faint divination; CL 3rd
Slot none (see below); Price 2,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.
Description
You can attach this sight to a single two-handed firearm. When this is done, the sight becomes part of the weapon, but can be removed from that weapon with a full-round action. A firearm wielder can choose to spend a full-round action to make a single shot with a firearm that has this sight. When he does, he can attack the touch AC of his target regardless of range increment.
Bleeding Wound (Ex): 2 grit points to give it 1 Dex Bleed, dragon becomes clumsy and realizes it is in danger.
Targeting (Ex): Wings. Dragon has looked for his offender, sadly the long range sniper is out of its blindsense range. It may notice the second puff of smoke and sound as the second shot takes out its wing, dropping it to the ground.
If the dragon manages to evade that shot then instead the gunslinger uses...
Covering Shot (Ex): At 7th level, as an immediate reaction, when a gunslinger misses with a firearm attack, she can spend 1 grit point to pin down the target of that missed attack. The pinned-down target is treated as if it were entangled for 1 round. A gunslinger cannot choose to purposely miss a target to gain this effect.
Which entangles the dragon, slowing it massively. All the Gunslinger needs to do now is wait the 8 remaining rounds until the dragons dex reaches zero and go claim his prize.
Queue up the Gunslinger Dragon Killer.
Might be more effective and awesome to have a pair of Gunslingers for this, seeing as these shots are full round actions and you will need time to reload. Unless you just have 2 rifles...
Legs or Wings: On a hit, the target is damaged normally
and knocked prone. A flying creature falls. A creature
that is immune to trip attacks is immune to this effectSome creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.So it will never happen.
Not being able to trip someone/something flying is not the same as the person/thing being immune to trip.
Queue up the Gunslinger Dragon Killer.
Far -Reaching Sight
Aura faint divination; CL 3rd
Slot none (see below); Price 2,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.
Description
You can attach this sight to a single two-handed firearm. When this is done, the sight becomes part of the weapon, but can be removed from that weapon with a full-round action. A firearm wielder can choose to spend a full-round action to make a single shot with a firearm that has this sight. When he does, he can attack the touch AC of his target regardless of range increment.Bleeding Wound (Ex): 2 grit points to give it 1 Dex Bleed, dragon becomes clumsy and realizes it is in danger.
Targeting (Ex): Wings. Dragon has looked for his offender, sadly the long range sniper is out of its blindsense range. It may notice the second puff of smoke and sound as the second shot takes out its wing, dropping it to the ground.
If the dragon manages to evade that shot then instead the gunslinger uses...
Covering Shot (Ex): At 7th level, as an immediate reaction, when a gunslinger misses with a firearm attack, she can spend 1 grit point to pin down the target of that missed attack. The pinned-down target is treated as if it were entangled for 1 round. A gunslinger cannot choose to purposely miss a target to gain this effect.Which entangles the dragon, slowing it massively. All the Gunslinger needs to do now is wait the 8 remaining rounds until the dragons dex reaches zero and go claim his prize.
*nerdgasm*
That sounds SO awesome!
I so want to play a dragon killer now. Perhaps Gunslinger levels (for the abilities) mixed with ranger (for favored enemy: dragon).
EDIT: Healing of any kind stops all kinds of bleed (even ability bleed). I imagine most dragons could cast cure spells or would have a healing potion on hand. A dragon who goes from 10 Dexterity to 8 Dexterity is little more than really pissed off.
These should allow a save.
Taking down a flying creature, no matter how big or powerful, with a g+$!+@n touch attack that doesn't allow a save, is beyond ridiculous. The same goes for a confusion effect without a save and the ability to disarm without a save or even factoring in CMD. Also, wouldn't it be more logical for the head to double critical range? Hitting the torso should be something like sickened or nauseated.
Just sayin.
GUN ENCHANTED WITH DISTANCE BONUS
For doubling the range. On a Musket, 80 feet a little better for hitting that dragon.
GUN ENCHANTED WITH DISTANCE BONUS
For doubling the range. On a Musket, 80 feet a little better for hitting that dragon.
Not if it is breathing on you from 120 feet away.
Not if it is breathing on you from 120 feet away.GUN ENCHANTED WITH DISTANCE BONUS
For doubling the range. On a Musket, 80 feet a little better for hitting that dragon.
So spend 1 grit point "Dead Eye " and extend the range of your musket to 160 feet.
spend 2 grit point "Dead Eye" and extend the range of your musket to 240 feet.
Not if it is breathing on you from 120 feet away.GUN ENCHANTED WITH DISTANCE BONUS
For doubling the range. On a Musket, 80 feet a little better for hitting that dragon.
So spend 1 grit point "Dead Eye " and extend the range of your musket to 160 feet.
spend 2 grit point "Dead Eye" and extend the range of your musket to 240 feet.
Congratulations! You've spent most of your grit to get the dragon down to your level. Here's hoping you're not that tasty.
Congratulations! You've spent most of your grit to get the dragon down to your level. Here's hoping you're not that tasty.Not if it is breathing on you from 120 feet away.GUN ENCHANTED WITH DISTANCE BONUS
For doubling the range. On a Musket, 80 feet a little better for hitting that dragon.
So spend 1 grit point "Dead Eye " and extend the range of your musket to 160 feet.
spend 2 grit point "Dead Eye" and extend the range of your musket to 240 feet.
You act like it is a one on one fight, and I would rather have a dragon on the ground than flying around flinging spells.
In your favor: The shot only brings the dragon down. Nothing says, unless I missed something, that he can't take off flying again.
Also, you make it sound like everyone fights dragon at range or that everyone is 1st level.
A 15-20 th level character can also use guns against dragon. They can even afford to have 8 +2 magic guns or 32 +1 magic guns by that point.
Also, you make it sound like everyone fights dragon at range or that everyone is 1st level.
A 15-20 th level character can also use guns against dragon. They can even afford to have 8 +2 magic guns or 32 +1 magic guns by that point.
Which they would have to given their penchant for exploding.
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Thing is, you SHOULD be able to shoot dragons/rocs/anything else out of the sky. It's just awesome and cool (and should be a base mechanic that with bows and crossbows as well, and spears should have an advantage in the chance of succeeding during those instances when you can actually land the spear throw)
yes. i agree. but the flying creature should be allowed a save.
I say let them drop dragons from the sky without a save.
Why?
So they can do better damage than a dagger throwing barbarian at least once during the campaign...
That kind of speaks to the other flaws in the class, don't ya' think?
Agreed: save is required. Auto downing a dragon with a gunshot is awfully unfair for the dragon! :)
Crunchy snacks never get nice things. :(
basically with a gunslinger in any party after 7th level makes dragon encounters CR-5.
I think dragons start to go invisible before they attack the party. On round 1 they lay a full attack smack down on the gunslinger, or disarm him of his gun and take back to the friendly skies.
edit: Round 1 equals surprise round in this case.
I think dragons start to go invisible before they attack the party. On round 1 they lay a full attack smack down on the gunslinger, or disarm him of his gun and take back to the friendly skies.
edit: Round 1 equals surprise round in this case.
understandable but the dragon may not know that the gunslinger had that ability or he doesnt think a small hole in his wing would matter. if its the former and you smack down the pc, thatd b metagaming.
understandable but the dragon may not know that the gunslinger had that ability or he doesnt think a small hole in his wing would matter. if its the former and you smack down the pc, thatd b metagaming.I think dragons start to go invisible before they attack the party. On round 1 they lay a full attack smack down on the gunslinger, or disarm him of his gun and take back to the friendly skies.
edit: Round 1 equals surprise round in this case.
If a gunslinger is going against a dragon the dragon most likely has done his homework on the group. At least the bad guys in my games do. Now if this is a random encounter and then you may have a point.
As for as the dragon not knowing the gun can make him fall I would think the gameworld physics are fairly well known. Being able to be downed by a bullet would seem to be common knowledge, just like knowing being stabbed takes away HP.
A thought...
How about no save, but it only works on creatures one size larger than the gunslinger?
Saying he can shoot down a large dragon, but not a medium sized one ruins immersion for many people, myself included.
I'm pretty sure he meant 'up to one size larger' with that Wraithstrike :PSaying he can shoot down a large dragon, but not a medium sized one ruins immersion for many people, myself included.A thought...
How about no save, but it only works on creatures one size larger than the gunslinger?
I know. I was just being picky. :)
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The ability is both broken and useless.
Broken 'cause why the hell a 20th level archer can't do that with his bow AND why the hell a 40 HD dragon would care about a grain of salt hitting his 100-foot wing.
Useless 'cause it probably won't be used more than once or twice in a whole 3-year campaign.
Take that silly ability off and give 'em endurance/diehard for free or something.
THINK GRIT!!!
The ability is both broken and useless.
Broken 'cause why the hell a 20th level archer can't do that with his bow AND why the hell a 40 HD dragon would care about a grain of salt hitting his 100-foot wing.
Useless 'cause it probably won't be used more than once or twice in a whole 3-year campaign.
Take that silly ability off and give 'em endurance/diehard for free or something.
THINK GRIT!!!
to expand on this, make deeds like the magus arcana ability where they can pick what they want. that way you have less deeds that they get automatically which frees up room to give them rapid reload and weapon focus and such for free, feats that make sense for the gunslinger to have. that way he can pick more feats for his level that help to make him unique vs other gunslingers.