Rogue to Ninja
It helps if we compare the classes and the gimmicks of the classes side by side. I've also occassionally drawn from the monk as the class tries to share some of its flavor too.
-Rogue Weapons and armour-
all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier,
sap, shortbow, and short sword. They are proficient with
light armor, but not with shields.
-Ninja Weapons and armour-
all simple weapons, plus the kama, katana, nunchaku,
sai, short sword, shortbow, shuriken, siangham, and
wakizashi. They are proficient with light armor but not
with shields.
*Ninja's get 5 more weapons over the Rogue and more or less equals monk, missing out on spears... which were legitimate historical weapons used by ninja too*
-Rogue Skills-
Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy(Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering)
(Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception
(Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis),
Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use
Magic Device (Cha).
-Ninja skills-
Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (local) (Int), Knowledge (nobility)(Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha),
Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex),
Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
*Same number of skills* NB- I do suggest Survival be added to the list... but you can always do it with a trait or maybe a new Ninja trick...
1st level Feats
Rogue Feats
Trapfinding (scales with levels) and Sneak attack
Ninja Feats
Poison Use (Doesnt scale) and Sneak attack
*Same number of feats. Note the Poisoner archetype also has the same trade up. Seems good.
2nd Level Feats
Rogue Feats
Evasion, Rogue Trick
Ninja Feats
Ki Pool, Ninja Trick
*Same number of feats but Ki pool gives a LOT more flexibility than Evasion. It automatically allows for great acrobatics rolls as long as one ki point remains. It allows for +4 to stealth and an extra full attack!! Thats better than what a fighter can pull of. Monks are limited to monk weapons or open hand - generally 1d6. Ninja could pull this off with a bastard sword! Sorry... overpowered. Compared to monks who need to wait until 4th for this sort of thing its overpowered plus monks are very limited in their ki pool range of usuage... Ninja ki pool compled with Ninja tricks make it a lot better.
Moving on to Ninja trick itself, it admittedly draws from the Ki pool so it semi balances at lower levels as the ninja must horde their strength but once a Ninja hits 6+ level and gets CHA buff equipment? Doesnt balance then... now onto some of the powers.
Acrobatics master? +20? It doesnt really stack against the Ledge walker rogue trick which is the closest equivilent or against the monk who need to wait until 5th and can only use it for Jump.
Smoke bomb + Choking bomb allows for a cluster effect and with poison bomb is breaking into Alchemist ground as early as level 4... no Rogue trick or combo of tricks compares.
Feather fall? Why not just use the Monk 'slow fall' and have it scale exactly as the monk ability? Its overpowered compared to the monk and their ability to avoid falling damage wasnt mystical.
Flurry of stars is better than any Rogue trick but as you can buy rapid shot combat feat and this only applies to Shruiken, its not madly over powered - its up to taste.
Forgotten trick? Way overpowered. Show me a Monk or rogue trick that comes close to this?
Hidden weapons is good and makes sense.
Ki block? Not even monks and their APG variants get that. That would be a good ki skill to give to monks in fact.
Ki Charge - No Rogue trick comes close to that. Burst attack as early as 2nd level?
Pressure point - mimics an ADVANCED rogue trick at an earlier stage - DC 15 heal checks in combat are not an option so it doesnt balance...
Slow Metabolism - Nice. Note that Poisoner Archetypes dont get access to such a nifty feature and Assassins get a bonus to saves - feels a bit over powered but nice flavour.
Shadow clone (2nd level spell effect), Vanishing trick - both better than the Rogue Major magic trick without the need to waste a ninja trick to get there via minor trick. Admittedly the Rogue version allows a pick but only of first level spells and the ninja ones are great picks. Ventriloquism is in the same ball park as Major Magic.
Sudden disguise - forget a skill roll, an almost automatic success via spell ability. Far outstrips the skill - equivilent of Major Magic feat (without minor magic trick) but damn, its a good one.
Wall climber is fine.
Conclusion - coupled with the Ki Pool they get better choices and more uses of their tricks than rogues.
3rd Level Feats
Rogue Feats
+1 to trapfinding
Ninja Feats
No trace. Gives scaling bonuses to stealth, avoidance of tracking and disguise...
*Rogues get a mere +1 to a feat that Ninja's got poison for... and here they get something with more flex and utility than trapfinding and it scales.
Level 6? Light steps even beats anything the Monk can do at a similar level. And again, its balanced against +2 to the trapfinding ability that the rogue gets... which doesnt balance at all.
I wont go into major rogue tricks vs. Ninja tricks in great detail but ninja get something that mimics a death strike, Improved Invisibility, a spell ability to perfectly copy someone, pass through walls - all greatly improved compared to what Rogues get.
Conclusion...
I am not the designer but saying that Rogues can't use CHA as a dump stat and dont get evasion doesnt come close to balancing the ki pool or the ninja tricks against what rogues get.
Ninja even get better and more weapon choices... while the majority of the weapons are exotics and harder to get, its not impossible and in a Tian Xia campaign? Par for the course.
Personal recommendations...
Make it an Archetype and remember the lessions you learned in Alpha testing with Barbarian rage points. So many abilities here are powered by points. It created messy book keeping before in Alpha and it creates it here again.
Ninja tricks can work... but they need to be looked at against the Rogue tricks and balanced accordingly. They do allow you to customise against the many different specialisations of Ninja.
Ninja Archetype
Leave the weapons and skills as you have already for Ninja... possibility removing Katana for Spear and short spear. Bastard Sword/Katana is an awfully good weapon to give away. Maybe let them spend a feat on it if they really want it?
Level 1 - Poison Use replaces Trapfinding.
Level 3 - Unarmed Stike (as feat with D6 dmg) replaces evasion... so ability to damage against ability to avoid damage is a rogue trade.
Level 6 - No Trace works here now as it replaces the +2 bonus for trapfinding... its +1 at 6th level on the No Trace but it works for more things... rough balance.
Ninja Tricks
Can select only certain rogue tricks (you can do the math on that) plus can choose from the following
- Stunning Fist *not as bad as it seems as it can leave a foe flat footed. It also makes sense as Ninjitsu has a tonne of nerve strikes.
- Ki Pool. Gives access to 2 points as a ki pool. Allow them the same basic ki abilities as monks, with the extra attack being for unarmed combat and MONK weapons only...
- Improved ninjitsu strike (as feat with D8 dmg)
- Smoke Bomb - not a huge fan of the effect but I appreciate the flavor. It does have the effect of allowing the rogue to make stealth rolls anew from within the cloud.
- Major Ninja Magic (requires Minor Magic). Allows Invisibility, Mirror image or Ventriloquism 1 time per day (semi balances against major magic as the higher level spell effect gives little choice and only a single use)
- Hidden weapons (not overpowered and it fits)
- Slow fall (scales exactly as monk ability)
- Sudden Disguise - Allows a disguise check after 1 minute. RAW needs 1D3 X 10 mins so this is a NIFTY skill. I advise opening it to Rogues as well - can't let Ninja have all the neat stuff
- One with the Shadows - +4 to stealth checks for 1 min X level per day
- Wall Climber. Again, this could be opened to rogues without trouble.
- Master Seducer/manipulator. Gain +4 to bluff/Diplomacy checks for 1 min X level per day. (This again could be opened to rogues)
Master Ninja Tricks
- Death Attack
- Pressure points (allow this in line with the crippling strike. This is a good skill as con affects fort saves for death attacks and hitpoints)
- Choking Bombs
- Blinding Bombs
- Poison Bombs
- See the Unseen
- Greater Ninjitsu strike (D10 Damage)
The above result NAILS all the points you want with a Ninja - cinematic or otherwise. It still allows for Ninja magical abilities in stealth etc BUT is more in line with the Rogue equivilents.
It really needs an apples to apples comparison. If its apples to oranges then its not a rogue alternative... its a whole new class... and if the new class powers are better than the old class (remember Paladin/Anti-paladin, which defines what your model is) then its in need of balance as well.
Did you considered the need for a decent Charisma score?
Kaiyanwang wrote: Did you considered the need for a decent Charisma score? Yes and it doesnt feature at all. Gimme a break. 12 Cha is easy to afford as a minumum, 14 isnt hard at all. They can afford NOT to buy INT as they get 8 skill points and their Assassination ability at 10th level isnt based on Int like Death attack, its on their 2nd Prime Attribute, Charisma.
By level 2 they'd have 2-3 Ki points with either a 12 or 14. So they get more flex than monks, earlier than monks and more uses of the rogue tricks. Fast forward to level 6... now they have 4-5 points + any charisma buffs, and they can buy extra ki as a feat. Again, not even balancing against the limited monk choices, and more uses and flex and impressive results than rogue tricks.
Its not apples to apples - its apples to lychee.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
You refer to CLASS ABILITIES and other options as FEATS and SKILLS when they clearly aren't. Not using the proper terminology makes your post extremely hard to read.
That being said, I disagree with your opinion that ninja are overpowered (excepting the new assassinate option which rapes the assassin's death attack). I've spent the last few years constantly hearing about how the ROGUE was underpowered compared to the other classes. Now that we have something that might actually compare, everyone seems to be up in arms about it. Skill types aren't allowed to get nice things I guess.
Ravingdork wrote: You refer to CLASS ABILITIES and other options as FEATS and SKILLS when they clearly aren't. Not using the proper terminology makes your post extremely hard to read.
That being said, I disagree with your opinion that ninja are overpowered (excepting the new assassinate option which rapes the assassin's death attack). I've spent the last few years constantly hearing about how the ROGUE was underpowered compared to the other classes. Now that we have something that might actually compare, everyone seems to be up in arms about it. Skill types aren't allowed to get nice things I guess.
This.
Two choice:
1) Add more awesome for Core + APG Rogue in the same book and end up with two good ways to play the class
2) Nerf it for general suckage
What our wisdom suggests?
Kaiyanwang wrote: This.
Two choice:
1) Add more awesome for Core + APG Rogue in the same book and end up with two good ways to play the class
2) Nerf it for general suckage
What our wisdom suggests?
Now this is a good idea. If common wisdom has the rogue as sucktastic and comparision of side by side class features (4am composition of points is bad for posting so I'll plead that for the mislabelling, but you did get what I was swinging at even it it was mislabelled) gives the edge to the ninja then, sure, a rogue buff is a cool idea too.
As long as it is apples to apples.
See, in my current campaign the rogue is doing well, but I think there's room for improvement.
I want to point out that a poster in the playtest session played with both classes and stated that differencies are less dire in play, so go figure.
Just few ideas:
- An archetype losing the trapfinding BONUS (the one scaling with levels) for few nice things even few more rogue talents.
- An HiPS high level talent (advanced talent)
- A Flask talent with limited round/use day, to not step too much into alchemist (it would be anyway different for a number of reasons - bombs damage who is immune to criticals as an example).
- Sneak attack with acid or liquid fire and similar stuff was one of the few things PF rogue lost from 3.5. No that dire, but situationally awesome. Moreover, is very well in the flavour of a resourceful dirty bastard.
Here's my Rogue to Ninja comparison, I have to finish the playtesting but I know you guys want more drama.
Comparing the Rogue (Core Rulebook + APG options) and the Ninja:
The Ninja is basically an oriental Rogue that doesn't care about the trap disabling bussiness, likes poisoning and gets new ninja-like options for all your ninja needs. Many abilities are available purchasing magic items. Even if you try to create very different characters both classes (actually class and alternate class) are very similar, it isn't a case of comparing apples and oranges.
One thing I like is that the trap-master niche is still here for the rogue (unless some ninja archetype gives trapfinding to the ninja)
Ability Scores: Basically the same as the Rogue for the same builds. Dumping Charisma below 10 isn't a good idea, but raising Charisma over 10 isn't mandatory either, Charisma based abilities just open the door to Charisma based builds.
Skills: The Rogue gets knowledge (Dungeoneering), the Ninja gets knowledge (Nobility), not a big difference here. Dungeons is a bit more useful because it can be used to recognize monsters.
Weapon proficiencies: The Rogue gets hand crossbow, rapier and sap. The Ninja gets Kama, Katana, Nunchaku, Sai, Shuriken, Siangham and Wakizashi. Note that both get simple weapons, short sword and shortbow too.
Siangham and Kama are similar to simple weapons (light mace, sickle), the Sai is a suboptimal Nunchaku.
The Nunchaku is ok if you want to disarm someone, so it is a good replacement for the sap (used to deal subdual damage).
The Shuriken seems a valid replacement for the hand crossbow.
The rapier (high crit one handed weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse) is replaced by the Katana (better than longsword, but can't be used with weapon finesse, it can be used two-handed or one-handed). Short Swords can still be used by High Dex Ninjas going for Two-Weapon-Fighting and rapier is only used in some Rogue builds, so no complaints here, actually it adds to the flavor of the class.
To have Ninjas using the katana one-handed as Samurais is kinda disturbing, but I don't think we are gonna see many Ninjas doing such thing.
Trapfinding is replaced by Poison Use. Seems a fair modification.
I.e. The APG "Poisoner" (Rogue Archetype) does the same thing (archetypes should be seen as a whole but at least it provides a reference)
"Trap Sense" is replaced by "No Trace" and later "Light Steps" (altough Light Steps can be considered a new ability that replaces nothing).
Not sure how much Trap Sense is worth, the APG "Rake" (Rogue Archetype) changes Trap Sense for "Rake's Smile" which gives roughly as many skill bonuses as "No Trace". Furthermore "Light Steps" gives you the ability to ignore traps -among other things-, and "per se" seems almost as useful as Trap Sense.
IMO No Trace + Light Steps is quite a better deal than Trap Sense, maybe one of them should be toned down/ made optional or made into a Ninja Trick.
It can also be argued that the Cha requirements for the Ninja pay for Light Steps.
The Ninja gets Hidden Master instead of Master Strike. It is a 20th level ability, I don't care much to be honest (except that it may ruin Epic Levels)
Master Strike usually means that everytime you make a sneak attack the target rolls a DC20 Fortitude save to avoid being slain (a high level PC usually gets +15 to +20 Fort, Bestiary creatures with CR 17+ have at least +19 Fort). You can increase the DC investing money in headbands.
Hidden Master drains 2 precious Ki Points (out of 10 unless you are playing an oriental Mata Hari) and a standard action to get Greater Invisibility (that isn't countered by True Vision and that kind of spells) for 20 consecutive rounds (1 encounter in most cases). So in a 4-5 encounters adventure you could be always invisible using the Ki Points you get instead of Evasion, it prevents spellcasters from casting many spells against you and allows you to use sneak attack almost every time. Well, seems fair, specially when an allied spellcaster can cast Greater Invisibility at any Rogue.
However Hidden Master also allows you to change Sneak Attack dices for a maxium of 10 damage to one ability score, it means that 3 sneak attacks (+105 average damage) can be changed for -5 to AC, about 75-100 damage (depends on foe HDs) and -5 attack/damage, without any save. As I understand it this use of the ability doesn't require you to be invisible or spend Ki points.
So, what's better, becoming invisible and dealing high penalties to the enemy or forcing a save vs death that is only failed 5-10% of the time? The Rogue Capstone ability isn't any good, but Hidden Master seems better than most 20th level abilities.
Evasion is replaced by Ki-Pool.
Note that the Ninja can get Evasion (and even improved evasion) later using an advanced talent, so by no means Evasion is forbidden to Ninjas, it's just optional. Upgrading from nothing to Evasion seems as good as upgrading from Evasion to Improved Evasion, so an advanced talent seems worth it.
Now it raises an interesting question, if Evasion is a Master Trick, will Rogues get Ki-Pool (or similar stuff) as an advanced Talent? should they?
Well, what's Evasion worth? Some APG Archetypes replace Evasion for other advantages (archetypes should be seen as a whole, but it provide a reference). The "Guide" allows you to reroll an attack (or an attack that hits you), 1 to 3 times per day. "Monk of Sacred Mountain" gets the feat Toughness and +1 natural bonus to AC. The "Weapon Adept" and the "Zen Archer" get Weapon Focus and Weapon Especialization.
Ki-Pool gives you 1 to 10 ki points (raises with your level, can be increased or decreased modifying your Cha). Without taking in mind Ninja Tricks that consume Ki points (optional, all the rogue talents are available), it already gives you advantages. If you have remaining Ki points you get bonuses to Jump. You can use 1 Ki for getting one extra attack for one full attack (similar to haste). Or you can use 1 Ki to increase your speed 20' in one round. Or you can use 1 Ki to get +4 to Stealth.
For a med of high level character I would have a hard time choosing between having the extra attack 5 to 10 rounds per day instead of bonus feats plus especialization or +1 to AC. However the extra abilities and versatility make Ki-Pool better.
Now, what if the Ninja tries to get Evasion buying a magic item and the Rogue tries to get benefits similar to Ki-Pool using magic items too?
The Ninja gets a Ring of Evasion, 25000 gps.
The Rogue gets a Ring of Jumping (10000 gps), improves his armor with the Shadow ability +5 to Stealth (+3750 gps) and gets Boots of Speed (12000 gps, Haste 10 rounds per day). Total 25750 gp.
Now, the rogue is using one more slot and the Ninja can also get those items (specially the Boots). Haste gives more than one attack, but Ki-Pool stacks with Haste. Also note that you can get Jump bonuses and Haste with potions or external spells. Finally a Ninja shouldn't dump his Cha below 10 (Cha 8 would decrease Ki-Points to zero at level 2, Cha 7 would be even worse)
IMO Ki-Pool extra attacks shouldn't stack with Haste, to avoid insane ammounts of attacks per round, nova-ing (burning all resources in a single encounter), etc.. Otherwise I'm ok with it.
Note: Since the Monk's Ki extra attack stacks with Haste (afaik) and you can combine Monk and Ninja Ki Pools I suspect that Paizo won't change that.
Ninja Tricks: The Ninja can learn Rogue Talents and many new Ninja Tricks. It opens new options, but it isn't necessarily Power Creeping, tricks should be studied on a case by case basis.
Note that Ninja Tricks that spend Ki points are more powerful that usual Rogue Talents, but without using Ninja Tricks you can already spend Ki-points to get powerful benefits. To compare with a rogue think about it: If a Rogue's trick would prevent you from using Evasion for a number of rounds, shouldn't it be more powerful?
There is the list of Ninja-exclusive Tricks:
TRICKS
* Acrobatic Master: It can be used, i.e. to move without provocking AoOs, at high levels you still need to invest skill points in Acrobatics (or get high Dex) to beat those CMDs of 40+. You spend a Ki point, loosing one extra attack per round to avoid an AoO seems fair to me. It's in the line of Ledge Walker, taking in mind that Acrobatic Master has limited uses.
* Choking Bombs: Prerequisites "Poison Bombs" and "Smoke Bombs". It enhances the Smoke Bombs. Nice for Charisma based Ninjas. It uses a standard action, the effect is a smokestick 15' radius, plus a Fort save (DC 11 to 20, for Cha10 guys level 1-20) for 1d4 rounds staggered (1 action/round). You can use Smoke Bombs 1/day, plus 1 use per Ki Point spent. High level monsters only fail that save rolling 1, for low level monsters the DC isn't difficult. Note that you can't get that trick before level 6. Works for me.
* Darkvision: Get Darkvision 60' for 1 hour using 1 Ki point. After playing a Dwarf with Darkvision I can say that Darkvision for 1 hour isn't worth more than this. Also note that 300 gp potions can give you Darkvision too.
* Deadly Range: How many times can you sneak attack with a ranged weapon? not many. Not overpowered IMO. However it should be available to Rogues.
* Feather Fall: Once per day, then 1 use per 1 Ki point spent. There are other easy ways to get featherfall (rings, boots..), and unless your GM loves cliffs you aren't going to use it often. A rogue would need to get "Major Magic" to get the same effect, but that would be 2 times per day and the ability to cast it on other characters. Ok for me.
* Flurry of Stars: Use 1 Ki Point to get 2 extra attacks with Shurikens, but suffer -2 to all attacks. Let's see, usually you can use 1 Ki-Point to get 1 extra attack without penalties, so what we actually get here is 1 extra attack for -2 to attack, sounds like Rapid Shot to me. Not Overpowered.
* Forgotten Trick: It needs rewording, so you use 1 Ki-Point and you can use an unknown ninja-only-trick paying any extra cost it requires. Seems a reasonable use of Ki-Points, altough it looks like an ability that can lead to some exploit. The problem is what "can use
that ninja trick for a number of rounds equal to her level." means, there are ninja tricks that last less than that, Forgotten Trick should allow you to perfom unknown ninja tricks, not performing them better than someone that selected those Tricks. Furthermore it shouldn't benefit from the 1/day free clause of many powers, or one trick will give you access to a lot of powerful tricks without any extra Ki cost.
* Hidden Weapons: How many times are you going to use it? Not overpowered. It should be available to Rogues IMO.
* Ki Block: Weird ability that can only be used against Monks and Ninjas. The DC isn't very high unless you are playing a High Cha Ninja, note that Monks have high Will saves. Ok for me.
* Ki Charge: Use 1 Ki Point and a standard action and cast a mini-fireball. 10' burst, maximum 5d6 damage at 15th level, DC=10+1/2 level +Cha mod. Similar to using Necklaces of Fireballs (1650 gps). It is the equivalent of a spell that could be between 1st and 2nd level, rogues can cast a 1st level spell 2/day, but that talent has prerequisites, I think that the Ki-Point tax is worth ignoring the requisites. Works for me, slighty overpowered at most.
* Poison Bombs: Prerequisites "Smoke Bombs". Add poison (and pay for it :p) to your smoke bombs. No problem.
* Pressure Points: It is a minor version of Crippling Strike (and advanced talent). Errated "Offensive Defense" is better than this. Not Overpowered IMO.
* Shadow Clone: Standard action that uses 1 Ki point. As I understand it the ninja level only increases the duration of the spell, not the number of images that is always 1d4. The Images last 1 minute/level. It is a second level spell with limitations, Rogues can take a talent (with prerequisites) to cast a 1st level spell 2/day (usually personal spells like Shield). Spending 1 Ki-Point, the limit to images and the number of usages pay for the level difference and the lack of requisites IMO. Another way to get Mirror Image without this ninja trick is maximizing Use Magic Device and get a wand or scrolls (high level characters only), Mirror Image can't be made into a potion. Balanced IMO.
* Slow Metabolism: Poison doesn't come into play so often, so I'm ok with the ability. However it should be a Rogue Talent too.
* Slow Reactions: No Ki-point cost. I'm not 100% comfortable with this ninja trick. In any case it should be a Rogue Talent too.
* Smoke Bombs: 1/day for free, then 1 Ki-point per use. Standard action. It's a smokestick with 15' radius. Works for me.
* Sudden Disguise: Seems better than "Quick Disguise" in the APG. Ok, Sudden Disguise in free 1/day only, but how many times do you disguise in a day? Yet...I've seen worse. Slighty overpowered (ignoring that Quick Disguise is far from a must-have)
* Undetected Sabotage: Seems of little use to me. Should be a Rogue Talent too.
* Vanishing Trick: Invisibility 1 round/level, 1/day free, then 1 Ki point per use, swift action. It is a limited 2nd level spell, the duration makes it suitable only for combat, it's ok. It's similar to the case of Mirror Image, but Mirror Image was a Personal spell (which is better), however Vanishing Trick is free 1 time per day, ok. The Ki point use for additional uses would balance it with the Rogue Trick for 1st level spells. What troubles me is the action required, a swift action. Casting a spell, drinking a potion or using an invisiblity ring takes a standard action. "Vanishing Trick" should take at least 1 move action OR not being free 1/day.
Well, now let's see it from another Point of View, I can use the Ki Point to do an extra attack, or I can use one Ki Point to get Invisible (which allows me to move without provoking AoOs, making "Acrobatic Master" useless, OR attack someone for one Sneak Attack, unless the enemy can see invisible stuff). Waiting to use the Ki Pool for an extra attack when you flank someone is basically the same as adding Sneak Attack whenever you want using Invisibility, you can only get the extra attack while doing full round attacks, and invisibility doesn't work against a few creatures. Having to spend a Ninja Trick should pay for everything else you can do while invisible (as moving without provocking AoOs whithout rolling Acrobatics). So it can take a swift action as Ki-Pool does, but I disagree with the free use per day, If you want to use it more often increase your Charisma, you punk! :p . Slighty Overpowered.
* Ventriloquism: No Rogue would take "Major Magic" to cast Ventriloquism, so I'm ok with this trick.
* Wall Climber: Having Climb speed is great. It is balanced just because the Ninja is already an excellent jumper, so it doesn't match very well with other Ninja abilities. I wouldn't make it into a Rogue Talent.
MASTER TRICKS (advanced talents)
* Assassinate: Good for Cha based Ninjas. Similar to the Assassin PrC "Death Attack" but it only takes one round to study the target. On the other hand it has more restrictions that "Death Attack", i.e. it only works when you deny the Dex modifier to the enemy (which isn't difficult out of combat or for someone that can become invisible). I could be compared with APG's "Knock-Out Blow" Rogue Advanced Talent, but it's limited to 1 use per day. I would make Assassinate a X uses/day ability to avoid possible exploits. And it should be available as an Advanced Rogue Talent. Slighty Overpowered IMO.
* Blinding Bombs: You need Choking Bombs (which was nice), Smoke Bombs and Poison Bombs first. Same as Choking Bombs but you blind the enemies, it can't be combined with Choking Bombs. Ok for me.
* Master Disguise: You need "sudden disguise", it is a more powerful version of the ability. Basically now it lasts far more than a few minutes, so you don't have to use Ki-Points every now and then. In comparison APG's "Master Disguise" gives you +10 to disguise once per day. Balanced for me (if any, it is Sudden Disguise which was unbalanced).
*Evasion: The Ninjas got your Evasion, now it is time to get it back... If upgrading Evasion to Improved Evasion is an Advanced Talent then Evasion as a Master Ninja Trick seems reasonable. Ok. But.. does it mean that Ki-Pool would be reasonable as a Rogue Advanced Talent?
* Ghost Step: It doesn't make you incorporeal as Gaseous Form, it just allows you to pass through walls. Not very useful. Not Overpowered.
* Invisible Blade: Prerequisite "Vanishing Trick". It upgrades Vanishing Trick from Invisibility to Greater Invisibility. Greater Invisibility is a 4th level spell that already lasts 1 round/level. Usually a rogue only gets that ability when the Wizard casts that on him, or spending ranks in Use Magic Device (and money in expensive 4th level Scrolls and Wands). It is also similar to the Arcane Trickster PrC 9th level ability. Dust of Dissapearance can be used too (2d6 rounds, 3500 gps, standard action, but many anti-invisibility spells don't work). You can get that ability at level 10, you'll have 4-5 Ki points then, plus a free use per day, the ability lasts 10 rounds, it means that you can use greater invisibility in every encounter. Note that Vanishing Trick and Invisible Blade can't be dispelled. It can only be compared with "Hunter’s Surprise" from the APG: once per day one round, no prerequisites. I'll just say that this ability should be playtested in a high level adventure.
* See the Unseen: Swift action to cast See Invisibility. Free 1/day, more uses cost Ki Points (usually you don't need to cast it more than once, because it lasts 10 minutes/level). It's a Personal range 2nd level spell that isn't used so often as Mirror Image, if a minor version of Mirror Image was ok as a ninja Trick (Shadow Clone), "See Invisibility" seems ok as a Master Trick.
* Shadow Split: Prerequisite Shadow Clone. It isn't that useful because the clon runs in one direction, it just helps you to escape or can be used to provoke AoOs. No action, 1/day for free, then 1 use per Ki Point. Not Overpowered.
* Unbound Steps: Limited Air-Walk, it's ok because Light-Steps already does the job in many cases.
Conclusions:
It isn't broken, but the power creep needs to be toned down a bit. If the Rogue needs Power Creep the solution isn't a new class similar to the Rogue, the solution are new feats and talents that can be used by all Rogues, archetypes and Variants.
Proposed Changes/Additions:
* Either Ki-Pool, No Trace or Light Steps has to be toned down. As a minimum I would remove the bonus to Stealth from No Trace OR the option to get a Stealth bonus using Ki-Points. Ninjas are masters of stealth, etc etc. ok, relax, one special ability plus optional abilities related to invisibility are more than enough.
* Hidden Master owns most 20th level abilities, the ability damage should be available only while the "greater invisibility" from Hidden Master is in effect.
* The following Ninja Tricks should be Rogue Talents too: Deadly Range, Hidden Weapons, Slow Metabolism, Slow Reactions, Undetected Sabotage, Assassinate (Advanced Talent).
* Forgotten Trick: Remove the sentence "can use that ninja trick for a number of rounds equal to her level.", the ninja trick should be used when Forgotten Trick is used, and should last what the Ninja Trick usually lasts. Forgotten Trick shouldn't benefit from the "1 free use per day" clase of most ninja tricks, if you want to cast Mirror Image and Invisibility without having those tricks pay 2 Ki-Points (1 for Forgotten Trick, 1 for the unknown Trick). It may be already the RAI, but the RAW aren't very clear.
* Vanishing Trick: Shouldn't be free 1/day, if you want to be invisible just use Ki-Points, the ability (and Invisible Blade) is worth it. More balance, less "per day" abilities to track, more hapiness.
* Assassinate: Should be limited to X uses per day (i.e. 3/day or 1/2 level per day).
* Invisible Blade: Removing the free use per day from Vanishing Trick should help to balance things, but it still needs more playtesting, nothing more to say about it for now.
* New Rogue Advanced Talent: "Exotic Training". Prerequisite, Rogue level 12 (or not available to Ninjas). You have learned some basic tecniques from a Monk or a Ninja. You get 1/2 rogue level + Charisma modifier Ki points. By spending 1 point from her ki pool, a rogue can make one additional attack at her highest attack bonus, but she can do so only when making a full attack.
The ki pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive. If the rogue possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool, rogue levels stack with the levels of that class to determine the total number of ki points in the combined pool, but only one ability score modifier is added to the total. The choice of which score to use is made when the second class ability is gained, and once made, the choice is set. The rogue can now use ki points from this pool to power the abilities of every class she possesses that grants a ki pool.
The proposed changes just put both classes roughly in the same line, I'm not trying to balance things to the last iota.
IkeDoe wrote: if Evasion is a Master Trick, will Rogues get Ki-Pool (or similar stuff) as an advanced Talent? should they? Very good question. An Advanced Talents Ki pool, or luck pool if you wanted to stylize it more neutrally, I could see for expanding the higher level options the rogue has.
Luck points might allow you reroll an attack, perhaps? Or auto confirm a critical? Maybe provide a +4 circumstance bonus to any skill check on which you can't take 10?
One of the things I think is going on here in this raging ninja vs rogue debate is that rogues are suffering from what you could call an Extraordinary image problem.
They function well, they can do the job, but because they don't have any powers that cost points, they don't have as many "steal the show" moments that other classes do (same with the fighter), at least that is the appearance. What they do have are (Ex) abilities that generally work all day whenever triggered by the right conditions.
That said, rogues and fighters DO have their steal the show moments, when they crit and do a special move, or when the rogue saves the party from a nasty trap. But since the class description doesn't have those events "written into them" as a pro-active rule mechanic like "smite" or "barbarian rage", their effects are not as impressive on paper. When you read those "per day" ability descriptions you can immediately imagine a scenario in which you can use them. With feats and talents the same thing applies but somewhat less so because they have to be balanced for the likelihood of their use over the adventuring day.
It is my belief that is problem is just a perceptual, grass-is-greener thing. In an adventuring day with 10 encounters, the party spellcasters will be generally out of juice, but the Ex pals will be going strong, as long as their HP is alright. Its just a play style choice. Some people like to spend special points to change the action. Other people like the consistency of having a character that works the same all day. And currently this divide is raging all over the forums, and not just about ninjas.
Recent threads in Ninja Discussion: Round 1
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