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I would prefer a more non western / historically earlier name (Swashbuckler / Musketeer / Fusilier /Carabinier etc). However, these troop types carried both musket style weapons and light side weapons which is not reflected in the current class.I agree even pistoleer would to me make more sense tahn gunslinger.
For players who need to visualize something other than a cowboy gunslinger in their PFS game I suggest taking a look at Privateer Press's Hordes or Warmachine miniatures - the later maybe interesting choices for Numerian characters.
You have pretty much the issue head on. The word gunslinger brings to mind very specific visualizations for most people. These visualizations have nothing to do with fantasy for most people. Mixing genres is not easy or successful the majority of the time.
I do agree that Privateer press has done a good job in expanding rpg fantasy to the steampunk era, but this is also in a earlier historical period than the western connotations of gunslinger as well. It is a little easier to connect steam technology to traditional fantasy due to the shorter time span between the historical under pinnings of the settings.
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The word gunslinger brings to mind very specific visualizations for most people. These visualizations have nothing to do with fantasy for most people.
And how does that affect the organized campaign? Does it invalidate scenarios? Hurt overall plots (Shadow Lodge, et al)? Does it divide a player base making it hard to successfully organize events?
Page 3 everyone, time to get back on track. If you want to discuss general concerns with the gunslinger, head over to the playtest forums. Don't make me kill your characters in your sleep!
Here's one for everyone. How much, on average, do you spend on consumables? How much does that change as you go up in levels?
A gunslinger, for instance, would be forced to pay 110 gp per scenario if it shoots only twice per encounter (at an average 5 encounters per scenario). That's roughly 4,000 gp after 37 scenarios. Is it significant enough to affect a Society character?
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A gunslinger, for instance, would be forced to pay 110 gp per scenario if it shoots only twice per encounter (at an average 5 encounters per scenario). That's roughly 4,000 gp after 37 scenarios. Is it significant enough to affect a Society character?
Secret Stash Deed helps with that somewhat (min 1 grit so you'd get 3 shots back), but suddenly I think I understand why you don't get grit refreshed daily in PFS. That trip to Kaer Maga could turn out to be quite profitable for a Gunslinger!
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Here's one for everyone. How much, on average, do you spend on consumables? How much does that change as you go up in levels?A gunslinger, for instance, would be forced to pay 110 gp per scenario if it shoots only twice per encounter (at an average 5 encounters per scenario). That's roughly 4,000 gp after 37 scenarios. Is it significant enough to affect a Society character?
Every one of my characters uses at least 100gp in consumables every scenario. Whether it is through scrolls, potions, charges on a wand or other miscelaneous items. 2 potions of cure light will take care of that 100gp easily and at higher levels its not a simple cure light, but maybe a cure mod or cure serious, and then your consumables just went up per adventure.
However, this may be an unfair comparison. These are consumables that everyone, even a gunslinger would use every scenario.
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Here's one for everyone. How much, on average, do you spend on consumables? How much does that change as you go up in levels?A gunslinger, for instance, would be forced to pay 110 gp per scenario if it shoots only twice per encounter (at an average 5 encounters per scenario). That's roughly 4,000 gp after 37 scenarios. Is it significant enough to affect a Society character?
Every one of my characters uses at least 100gp in consumables every scenario. Whether it is through scrolls, potions, charges on a wand or other miscelaneous items. 2 potions of cure light will take care of that 100gp easily and at higher levels its not a simple cure light, but maybe a cure mod or cure serious, and then your consumables just went up per adventure.
However, this may be an unfair comparison. These are consumables that everyone, even a gunslinger would use every scenario.
Yeah, I could see that gunslinger using as much in the way of "normal" consumables as a fighter or melee rogue, really.
Remember that you are either going to be practically in your opponent's lap most of your career, or you are giving up the main strength of your weapon. Even the 40' for a musket is not far enough, since that is frequently still in optimal charge range, and once someone is in your face, you probably are going to be using something to heal the wounds taken (remember the lack of heavy armor proficiency, and no shields, even a buckler), and I could see a Dex-focused gunslinger using lots of tanglefoot bags, alchemical fire, and such, too.
Director of Brand Strategy
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I actually have a bit of an issue with the resale value of the firearms in PFS.
I understand the idea of curbing the ability to take 1 level for free 2000gp of equipment, but it's really penalizing a gunslinger who just wants to masterwork his weapons.
We're aware of this and I've been talking with Jason and SRM about ways to handle it. We'll update the special gunslinger rules when we've come up with a solution.
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I disagree, on both counts. Weapon Finesse is worthwhile for any dex based fighting character (rogues, monks, dex fighters), especially if you pair it with pirhana strike. My monk has weapon finesse and if she didn't, honestly, she'd never hit with her unarmed strike (or anything else, probably). The gunslinger is a dex and wisdom based character with a full bab. With weapon finesse, when the bullets run out and you don't have time to reload, switch to rapier(or dagger, or whip, etc.). I think it would make a really interesting character and I don't see how it would be ineffective in the least.
This isn't the place to carry on this conversation so I'll make this quick. Math disagrees with you on both counts, and I'm going to have to side with math. It doesn't matter if you hit every time or not, as a dex-based character your damage won't be high enough to matter.
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I actually have a bit of an issue with the resale value of the firearms in PFS.We're aware of this and I've been talking with Jason and SRM about ways to handle it. We'll update the special gunslinger rules when we've come up with a solution.
An idea I suggested up top in the playtest was to make their guns somehow "bonded" to them, like a wizard's bonded item or a familiar. It would become useless in the hands of another person, and thus, non-resellable (maybe 10% for the novelty of owning a non-working gun). It would mean the loss of a treasure item, and players couldn't loot slain gunslingers' guns for their own use, but that might also work to limit their spread.
For masterworking guns, just set a price. 300gp (masterwork cost) + a flat 500gp. Go ahead and say it's an exception to the rule that you can't masterwork a regular weapon. Guns are different. They're already almost masterwork anyway because each is individually crafted by a skilled gunsmith; a little more work and a regular gun can be made masterwork. 500 gp would be a bit high (a heavy repeating crossbow is 400 gp), but again, there aren't many people who can masterwork a gun and a trip to Alkenstar is expensive.
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We're aware of this and I've been talking with Jason and SRM about ways to handle it. We'll update the special gunslinger rules when we've come up with a solution.
I have a quicker and easier fix.
As most mechanical devices a rifle or pistol is made up of a variety of small components; as opposed to a sword, which in this context is just a lump of metal :)Unlike other weapons a firearm could be upgraded to masterwork quality (at 300gp) by changing vital componets, rather then recrafting the weapon... and thats it.
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Unlike other weapons a firearm could be upgraded to masterwork quality (at 300gp) by changing vital componets, rather then recrafting the weapon... and thats it.
Mechanically since you are talking about adding a +1 to hit to a gun, masterwork cost just upgrades the weapon site making it more accurate. 300 gp done. Which is what you just said, so +1! =)
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Unlike other weapons a firearm could be upgraded to masterwork quality (at 300gp) by changing vital componets, rather then recrafting the weapon... and thats it.Mechanically since you are talking about adding a +1 to hit to a gun, masterwork cost just upgrades the weapon site making it more accurate. 300 gp done. Which is what you just said, so +1! =)
A musket generally has no sight, and adding one would not make it any more accurate. Neither would adding a site to a non-rifled pistol.
Part of the problem is that there is nothing in the actual construction of a musket or pistol that should justify the 1500gp price. There is far far less metalwork involved than in the making of even the most basic weapons grade sword. A musket is simply a long tube or rolled steel with a smooth bore barrel, mounted on a wooden stock.
Game-mechanically speaking, I can see where the huge price is intended to limit supply and use within the world. It's trying to cram the game mechanics into somewhat believable pseudo-reality where all the problems come in.
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Game-mechanically speaking, I can see where the huge price is intended to limit supply and use within the world. It's trying to cram the game mechanics into somewhat believable pseudo-reality where all the problems come in.
I agree. I do not necesarily see why this has been implemented though since mechanically bows are still the king of ranged combat.
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On the plus side, nobody left the table or quit PFS because I was playing a gunslinger. Nobody seemed to mind the flavor in the least and several players mentioned wanting to create Ninja to playtest as well.
Luckily everyone at Owlcon who said they were going to make a gunslinger backed out. There was one person that ended up playing one. He didn't sit at my table, so I never got to leave the table in disgust, but he told me he was going to make one and agreed to let me slap him in return for playing it. I plan to collect on our agreement the next time he comes for our home campaign.
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He didn't sit at my table, so I never got to leave the table in disgust, but he told me he was going to make one and agreed to let me slap him in return for playing it. I plan to collect on our agreement the next time he comes for our home campaign.
Bwhahahahahahhahahahahaha. I would certainly also make sure to collect on that one too!
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120 posts so far - mainly opinion as I can tell - no experience. So lets try to add my experience from last week.
I gmed 10 slots, 56 character slots total (not all tables were full, only twive I allowed 7 players). Most of it was low tier. I did have 3 character slots using a gunslinger. One gunslinger played two games at my table. The other one - he didn't survive his first game at my table.
My experience:
The gunslinger - at least on low tier - really had issues with damage reduction. Up against a skeleton (or other foes with DR 5/-) he pretty much was useless. He isn't the only character class in such a situation - but I noticed them being pretty ineffective faced with this problem.
Roleplay:
I had some fantactic one in Mist of the Mwangi
Another nice scene was Voices in the Void
It was great for some flavour and they could have achieved it a lot cheaper with the barbarian using his axe. Everything was achieved - so why not. But it raises a question - probably more accurately tackled at playtest - what do you do with multiple charges being lit at the same time.
The other gunslinger now is up for the Golden Badger award for best character death at the convention. I haven't heard back yet if he managed or not. So as GM - if you don't like them - kill them [This is a JOKE !!! - I wasn't out to get him - he was just the unlucky one who didn't manage to survive a softy GM like me.]
All in all - I had big reservations agaisnt the class - but at least in three games I GMed I actually had a lot fun with them. This includes the dead one - you need a special death to be worthy being nominated for the Golden Badger.
Thod
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Not terribly looking forward to adjudicating Daring Act for some players...
Which is why Daring Act is currently excluded from PFS organised play.
Cheers,
DarkWhite
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Not terribly looking forward to adjudicating Daring Act for some players...Whis is why Daring Act is currently excluded from PFS organised play.
Cheers,
DarkWhite
Thank you. Believe it or not, that's the first time I've actually seen that link.
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That leaves zombies and other DR5/slashing as well as certain constructs with DR/-.
If I did deny bludgeoning damage to a skeleton, then it's possible. I didn't read the class and think to remember that in one encounter I described a bullet going through the rib cage without damage. Memory is blurred after all these sessions.
The player didn't correct me and I hadn't read the play test rules yet. That would be the 61.26% chance that it's me who is wrong.
But see another thread about times for scenarios. I tried to stay in time and relied on player input in case I was wrong.
Thod
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That leaves zombies and other DR5/slashing as well as certain constructs with DR/-.
If I did deny bludgeoning damage to a skeleton, then it's possible. I didn't read the class and think to remember that in one encounter I described a bullet going through the rib cage without damage. Memory is blurred after all these sessions.
The player didn't correct me and I hadn't read the play test rules yet. That would be the 61.26% chance that it's me who is wrong.
But see another thread about times for scenarios. I tried to stay in time and relied on player input in case I was wrong.Thod
Ultimately it's the player's job to know their character, especially something new like this.
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To tell you the truth Hyrum, If Gunslingers are still on the ledge on if they will be allowed in PFS, I have lost all interest Playtesting one in PFS games.They're legal, what's on the edge is a gunslinger major NPC or gunslinger focused scenario outside Alkenstar.
I want to reserve the right to change my mind if needed to preserve PFS, but as of right now gunslingers will be allowed in Society play from here on out.
Hyrum.
I can except that, cool.
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Maybe I should add one additional bit. The approximate ten other players sitting at the table didn't complain or other vice started with banter, etc against the character. In one of the groups most other players stayed on to play the next scenario with the gunslinger.
I'm sure there will be players less happy - but at least not at my tables. It also seemed both gunslingers were individual players/GMs away from their home group. So they 'imposed' the character on others without asking.
This is too small a group to generalize - but at least there was no huge outcry.
Thod
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Quick question, can you spend PA on reloads? Normally PA can be spent on one item. In this instance would a single round be counted as an item? How about a pack of 10? The expenditure of 2 PA might be a way to reload and at least bury some of the cost a little, assuming you can get the full benefit of the 2 PA spent.
So they 'imposed' the character on others without asking.
Isn't that the nature of organised play? Do you ask other players at the table before bringing out your paladin or Chelaxian?
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Isn't that the nature of organised play? Do you ask other players at the table before bringing out your paladin or Chelaxian?
I was born in Cheliax, it is an exaggeration to believe that all Cheliaxians are Devil Worshipers, some are decent people. But those that encourage the current Devil worshiping government need to be eradicated! Freedom to Cheliax!
Hi everyone im new to pathfinder but not to RPGs i just got bored with DND 4.0 and switched over to this i heard about the new stuff and wanted to check it out.
Anyways i think the gunslinger should be one of the following
Deadeye gunslinger- A gunslinger that does rapid fire and quickly emptys his chambers to join in the fighting with an weapon
Loader gunslinger- A gunslinger that is a midrange striker that sacrifices rapid fire for rapid load
im just throwing around ideas
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Hi everyone im new to pathfinder but not to RPGs i just got bored with DND 4.0 and switched over to this i heard about the new stuff and wanted to check it out.
Anyways i think the gunslinger should be one of the following
Deadeye gunslinger- A gunslinger that does rapid fire and quickly emptys his chambers to join in the fighting with an weapon
Loader gunslinger- A gunslinger that is a midrange striker that sacrifices rapid fire for rapid load
im just throwing around ideas
Welcome to the forums Marcus!
Just so you know, you're currently in the Pathfinder Society area of the forums, where we focus on the specific rules for the organized play environment, not on the details of the overall playtest for the new Gunslinger class (unless it's specifically related to the class and PFS play).
You might want to post on those sections of the forums if you want to discuss the classes in general.
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Hi all,
I thought I'd contribute a few of my thoughts regarding Gunslingers, and Oriental classes in PFS Organised Play campaign (Golarion).
I've heard claims that Oriental flavour should be it's own campaign and doesn't belong in the Inner Sea. To which I would reply, we already have Egyptian Osirion, Middle-east Qadira, African Mwangi, Indian Vudra among others rubbing shoulders in Absalom and the Inner Sea region, and I think the campaign is richer for it.
Oveerland trade routes, the slave trade, shipping routes (Serpent's Skull AP), adventuring, and other factors contribute to make the cities of the Inner Sea region far more cosmopolitan than your typical medieval fantasy setting. Golarion strikes me as more a Victorian setting than Medieval.
Players were bringing TianXia inspired characters into PFS Organised Play long before these new classes were announced. We already had at least one TianXia character in our home group. Paizo fans largely welcomed the inclusion of Ameiko Kaijitsu, a TianXia NPC who's family crossed the Crown of the World to settle in Sandpoint Varisia, appearing in Pathfinder's first Adventure Path. The only thing that's really changed is that TianXia Rogue and Cavalier characters now have a culturally better class fit.
Personally, I enjoy the wide variety of cultural influences our campaign has to draw from. In the past, such elements have been ghettoed away in their own campaign setting books. Players might be interested in an Oriental Adventures game, or an Nyambe African Adventures game, but these rarely saw the light of day in mainstream products (adventures, Living Campaigns, other sourcebooks) so players who were interested exploring these cultures were generally out of luck.
This is why I applaud Paizo for including Ninja and Samurai in a "mainstream" Ultimate Combat release, instead of the TianXia campaign setting book, where many might suggest they belong. Fencing Ninja and Samurai off in the TianXia campaign setting book, there's increased risk they'd be ignored by GMs not wanting to go there - always the perogative of any GM - but at least the Organised Play setting supports them, and they'll receive greater visibility among players and GMs alike.
Gunslinger? Well, similar reasons as above.
I've read suggestions to change the Gunslinger name to Musketeer etc. I'm happy with Gunslinger, as the name rather neutrally desribes one who wields a gun, similar to Swordsman. However, as with other classes, I think we'll see archetypes available for Gunslinger that could well include Musketeer, Pirate, Soldier etc.
What really excites me about the Gunslinger is that Pathfinder RPG rules are used by a broader audience than PFS Organised Play - they're also used by home-brew campaigns, third-party publishers etc. The Gunslinger could be an appropriate class for Westerns, Victorian Age, Cthulhu, Modern, Steampunk, maybe even Scifi. Future Gunslinger archetypes could include Cowboy, Police Officer, etc. My vision of Pathfinder Torg is one step closer to reality!
I've also read suggestions that Ninja and Samurai are too culturally specific for their own class. There were two arguments I've heard:
1) Ninja is more appropriately a Prestige Class or Archetype.
I'm much more in favour of Archtypes than Prestige Classes, but let's just say for a moment that Paizo created a Ninja Archetype for the Rogue class. Happy? Good. Now let's say Paizo applied those alternate class features to the Rogue class for you, and presented it as a 20-level "alternate" class for your convenience, because that's pretty much what they've done.
2) Japan is only one culture within a much broader Asia, of which Ninja is only a narrow example of the many mystic assassins among other Asian cultures.
Fair point, however Ninja is probably the most recognisable example and therefore totally appropriate as a base "mystic assassin" class. However, if China or Thailand or India or Ustulav have thier own cultural versions of mystic assassin, then that's where archetypes come in, as per the Gunslinger mentioned above.
I'm really looking forward to exploring these options within the game I love.
Cheers,
DarkWhite
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I am a total Noob. not even have GM'ed my first event yet (February 12th, Boise Idaho.) but I am not a Noob to RP. I still remember opening the red and blue Boxes as a 12 year old boy.
That said, I find this thread very amusing. I also am in total agreement with Dark White. with one exception.
1) Ninja is more appropriately a Prestige Class or Archetype.
I'm much more in favour of Archtypes than Prestige Classes, but let's just say for a moment that Paizo created a Ninja Archetype for the Rogue class. Happy? Good. Now let's say Paizo applied those alternate class features to the Rogue class for you, and presented it as a 20-level "alternate" class for your convenience, because that's pretty much what they've done.
I actually think Prestige class fits better here. the reason is the history behind Ninja (and other Asian assassin societies) you where either born into the society or recruited. learning the secrets after having proven your worth usually. this could be as a warrior or rogue. however i recognize that the opposite argument could be made saying being born in makes it an archetype or original class. so its really a mute point to me.
Paizo has done an excellent job adding some variety to the game. Even if the samurai looks very much like an Asian cavalier clone. how about some feats for them unique to the rich history of the samurai, so they are less like a clone. :) Just like you did to the Ninja.
I look forward to hitting some conventions and running Raylyyn, My Qadira Monk, next to some of them.
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Cheers on the gunslinger, my personal opinion without talking about specifics game mechanics in regards to beta. I fully support gunslingers in organized play.
So specifically if you are running a mod, and this class is not getting through DR, would you explain and make it clear to the player. Some encounters will be more challenging others the gunslinger will excell.
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Quick question, can you spend PA on reloads? Normally PA can be spent on one item. In this instance would a single round be counted as an item? How about a pack of 10? The expenditure of 2 PA might be a way to reload and at least bury some of the cost a little, assuming you can get the full benefit of the 2 PA spent.
Poke-Poke. Any of you have thoughts on this?
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My 1st level Gunslinger went w/ pistols. spent 132gd from his starting 150 to buy 4 charges and 4 bullets. I also assume each pistol comes with a charge and a bullet, for a total of 5 shots (1 shot = 1charge & 1 bullet).
So he starts play with 2 pistols, 5 charges, 5 bullets and has 18gd spend on armor and a second weapon. Buying leather 10gd & Club 0gd still leaves him with 8gd spend on anything he wants :(
Because of the expense of charges I did go w/ Secret Stash. I think it is expense to have to spend 1 feat and 1 skill pt (sleight of hand) to get Secret Stash then have to spend 1 grit to get 3 more charges and bullets.
Does a Gunslinger get to use a Buckler?
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I also assume each pistol comes with a charge and a bullet, for a total of 5 shots (1 shot = 1charge & 1 bullet).Why are people assuming this? I can not find anything that would lead to this assumption...
Hope against reason I guess. Bows do not come with 1 arrow.
Of course I mistakenly thought pistols came with the 50 shots. :)
I do not think that Secret Stash is probably worth it over the life of the character. At least for my build with 3 grit, if I'm able to get 9 shots a session x 33 sessions is only 3267 gp deferred. I was able to earn 1200 of that in my 1st session playing up to sub-tier 3-4. Optimistically increasing it to 5 grit (assuming I get a kill and confirmed critical) is only 5445 gp. With an already tricky feat layout that could be a stinker.
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Why are people assuming this? I can not find anything that would lead to this assumption...
I made the assumption simply because this is a playtest. Playing a mod, making 1 or 2 attacks (4 max) then following the party around for the next 3 hours really isn't much of a playtest.
Dragnmoon, you are right, it isn't written anywhere which why I brought it up. If it is wrong I definitely will make the change. Mark you make great point about the arrow not coming with the bow.
Revised character will NOT have 5 charges & bullets, but 4 each.
It just seems the right thing to do.
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Why are people assuming this? I can not find anything that would lead to this assumption...
I made the assumption simply because this is a playtest. Playing a mod, making 1 or 2 attacks (4 max) then following the party around for the next 3 hours really isn't much of a playtest.
Dragnmoon, you are right, it isn't written anywhere which why I brought it up. If it is wrong I definitely will make the change. Mark you make great point about the arrow not coming with the bow.
Revised character will NOT have 5 charges & bullets, but 4 each.
It just seems the right thing to do.
You are correct it is wrong, I still think it is an odd assumption to make.
That said, no one will kill you for that mistake..Maybe your character though.. ;)
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LOL bad math bad math. 12 it is!My 1st level Gunslinger went w/ pistols. spent 132gd from his starting 150 to buy 4 charges and 4 bullets.A bullet+one charge=11gp. If you spent 132gp, that would be twelve shots, not four.
I actually like this. do not get me wrong, I love the Gunslinger. but this keeps her in check power wise. She has to pick and choose when to use the pistols/musket instead of charging in guns blazing on the poor little kobold in the corner. at higher levels, income should be sufficient to cover the need for her to use them more often.