Hey, as usual the new content looks great, there's a lot of good stuff here.
I wanted to talk a little about the firearm damage for the Gunslinger though. And maybe it's too late if these rules are already baked into the campaign setting. But I've been using firearms in my Pathfinder group for a while. My rules are very similar to yours (you can see them here on my blog, they're OGL and were picked up by LPG. And the problem with them is the damage output.
Heck, mine I was using the old "exploding damage dice rule" and doing 2d4 (pistol) and 2d6 (musket) which is a bit higher than your 1d8/1d12. But players are tending away from them because the damage is bad - sure, the base damage looks OK, but it can't be enhanced by Strength, can't be rapid or multishotted, can't use iterative attacks (unless you have a lot of them, and they're expensive) and except for magic or Point Blank Shot basically can't have their damage enhanced in any way. (Trading touch attack for exploding damage dice is fair enough, I don't mind that.)
The exotic proficiency, high cost, and misfires are appropriate (I use those too), but even without those limitations firearms become undesirable. The only reason all that would ever be worthwhile is if there was a high one-shot damage output. After a bunch of playtesting of my very similar gun rules, I have come to the conclusion that my damage numbers are too low, and these are lower still.
I was reading the Freeport Companion: Pathfinder RPG Edition and their firearm damage is a lot higher, like ranging from 3d6 to 4d6. And though that seems really high at first blush, I have to say after running Pathfinder with guns for more than a year, I am thinking about adopting those new higher damage values for my game so that the one player who still uses guns doesn't abandon them (they are too expensive and feat-requirey for level one, but then their damage limitation makes them even more worthless post about level 4, especially once you get iterative attacks). I would go at least to 3d4 pistol/3d6 musket without hesitation.
I'm fine with firearms being something you don't necessarily shoot five times a round, instead being "option weapons" for characters who don't usually do ranged but every once in a while need to pop something - I like the realism of the long reloads and all - but if they cost $1000 + $10 per shot, require a feat, and can only shoot once every other round, there has to be damage to compensate. Even a non-optimized low level shortbow wielder with a modest 14 strength and rapid shot is going to be tossing out 4d6+8 damage over two rounds, and that's without all those other drawbacks. Compare to a two round damage output of 2d8 for a pistol or 1d12 for a musket? That's 24 vs 9 points on average. Should bows be 2-3x better than guns AND not have all the additional costs and drawbacks? Even if ou argue the touch attack at close range makes up for all the drawbacks, you're still left with that huge raw damage differential.
Thanks for listening! (Oh and thanks for getting rid of percussion cap weapons that was just way too anachronistic.)
You make some decent points here.
A couple key things to keep in mind, though:
You do get to add your Dex mod to damage as of Lvl 5 with Gun Training.
x4 Crit multiplier.
Also, Radney-Macfarland mentioned elsewhere that the bullet/black powder cost is still a point of contention in development and not yet set in stone.
Also, once people start picking up things like Rapid reload/Secret stash, and eventually Signature Deed, damage output really needs to be watched.
I think this is something that will be watched very closely in these playtests.
Perhaps the gunslinger should get a class feature where through their extensive use he gains a greater understanding of how guns work and can create greaters versions of fire arms that do more damge, fire more rapidly etc.
e.g.
Rifle 3d6 damage
Pre reqs Craft (fire arms), gunsliger class feature (maybe called master gunsmith or something that you can get at like lvl8 prehaps).
with a few more better versions costing more
Later levels like 15 you get a greater version of gunsmith that alows you to craft guns that take ammo (clips, shotguns and bolt actions)(you can also craft ammo).
other than the basic starting guns its very hard to use the more advanced guns unless a gunslinger
otherwise i'd take about 3 lvl of gunslingr rest rouge and just take one shot a round from hiding positions with the scpoe that cost 2k so i can have touch attacks.
To be honest, that is one of the things we want to playtest. I also have concerns that the gunslinger is not reaching her proper damage potential, and some more tweaking of class features and deeds may have be done.
Her current build mixed with feat choices, the class abilities she has right now, and how firearms work create a new standard when it comes to damage output for a class. Finding the right equation requires more data.
If you are playing a gunslinger, feel free (and by feel free I mean please do) take a little time and write down your accuracy and damage number in play. I am very interested in that data.
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Perhaps the gunslinger should get a class feature where through their extensive use he gains a greater understanding of how guns work and can create greaters versions of fire arms that do more damge, fire more rapidly etc.
e.g.
Rifle 3d6 damage
Pre reqs Craft (fire arms), gunsliger class feature (maybe called master gunsmith or something that you can get at like lvl8 prehaps).
with a few more better versions costing moreLater levels like 15 you get a greater version of gunsmith that alows you to craft guns that take ammo (clips, shotguns and bolt actions)(you can also craft ammo).
other than the basic starting guns its very hard to use the more advanced guns unless a gunslinger
otherwise i'd take about 3 lvl of gunslingr rest rouge and just take one shot a round from hiding positions with the scpoe that cost 2k so i can have touch attacks.
A buddy and myself were kicking around stuff like this as possible options to help scale the Gunslinger.
We thought that maybe the weapon was more of a bonded one (since people are up in arms [pun intended] about costs) that could be upgraded/altered as the Gunslinger gains levels kind of like the Alchemist's bombs. You get enhancements that you achieve by making alterations to the gun like making the barrel longer for accuracy or at level 10 you can alter it to include a small clip.
We're gonna attempt to use the Gunslinger in a real campaign setting and see how it goes...maybe play out a couple player vs. player groups of 4.
I have a similar concern. I always like dthe idea of a gunslinger in my d20 (and, previously, AD&D) campaigns but has this issue with damage and availability.
You just be careful with just making the item more powerful, and that goes both to increasing the gun's base damage as having craft skills that make them more powerful. Remember that non-gunslingers may also get that weapon, and even gunslingers in lower levels.
The issue is with increasing damage output. We don't need a weapon that kills a single target in one shot, possibly causing a few encounters to just be not fun at all.
A suggestion that seems to make sense is that the gunslinger increases damage with guns (or his chosen gun) as he levels up, similar to Star Wars Saga basic damage increase. For instance, a gunslinger adds his level as damage bonus to his attacks with a gun.
Another option, using the Grit mechanic, is to allow gunslingers to convert grit into extra damage.
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I hear what you're saying but keep in mind these aren't the pieces of technology we've come to know. They're the 17th century counterparts. With ranged touch attacks and bonus to damage based on Dex these things are already power houses. Throw Deadly Aim into the mix and they'll be doing 8-15 damage per shot @ 5th level. They're pretty nuts.
My friend will be playing a gunslinger in an upcoming one shot this week. He is also concerned about the damage potential. I will report how it goes later this week.
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I hear what you're saying but keep in mind these aren't the pieces of technology we've come to know. They're the 17th century counterparts. With ranged touch attacks and bonus to damage based on Dex these things are already power houses. Throw Deadly Aim into the mix and they'll be doing 8-15 damage per shot @ 5th level. They're pretty nuts.
And an archer at fith level will do 6-13 damage per shot. And will shot twice...
[1d8+1(point blank)+2 (str bonus) + 2 (deadly aim)]
I'd hardly call the one shot at 1d8+7 nuts. We won't even talk about the crazy damage that happens next level with archers when they start getting iterative attacks and Multishot...
To be honest, that is one of the things we want to playtest. I also have concerns that the gunslinger is not reaching her proper damage potential, and some more tweaking of class features and deeds may have be done.
Her current build mixed with feat choices, the class abilities she has right now, and how firearms work create a new standard when it comes to damage output for a class. Finding the right equation requires more data.
If you are playing a gunslinger, feel free (and by feel free I mean please do) take a little time and write down your accuracy and damage number in play. I am very interested in that data.
Change the damage the gunslinger does, not the damage the weapon does.
I would personally make the pistol this
Pistol: S:1d6 M:2d4 18-20/x2 exploding dice
Musket S:2d4 M:2d6 19-20/x2 exploding dice
Guns tend to do major damage more often than less often. This also means that a skilled (increased critical feat) gunslinger, can hit with more deadly shots more often, rather than 1 in 20... or 2 in 20 (with feat).
To be honest, that is one of the things we want to playtest. I also have concerns that the gunslinger is not reaching her proper damage potential, and some more tweaking of class features and deeds may have be done.
Her current build mixed with feat choices, the class abilities she has right now, and how firearms work create a new standard when it comes to damage output for a class. Finding the right equation requires more data.
If you are playing a gunslinger, feel free (and by feel free I mean please do) take a little time and write down your accuracy and damage number in play. I am very interested in that data.
Change the damage the gunslinger does, not the damage the weapon does.
I would personally make the pistol this
Pistol: S:1d6 M:2d4 18-20/x2 exploding dice
Musket S:2d4 M:2d6 19-20/x2 exploding diceGuns tend to do major damage more often than less often. This also means that a skilled (increased critical feat) gunslinger, can hit with more deadly shots more often, rather than 1 in 20... or 2 in 20 (with feat).
Why should guns be so much more deadly then say a crossbow or a longbow? I think the guns as presented are perfectly valid with a great advantage (the ability to make touch attacks) to make up for the slow loading times and misfire rules. My only gripe right now is with the cost of firearms and ammo.
I think ultimate combat should make guns viable weapons by presenting feats and archetypes that makes them worthwhile.
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To be honest, that is one of the things we want to playtest. I also have concerns that the gunslinger is not reaching her proper damage potential, and some more tweaking of class features and deeds may have be done.
Her current build mixed with feat choices, the class abilities she has right now, and how firearms work create a new standard when it comes to damage output for a class. Finding the right equation requires more data.
If you are playing a gunslinger, feel free (and by feel free I mean please do) take a little time and write down your accuracy and damage number in play. I am very interested in that data.
Change the damage the gunslinger does, not the damage the weapon does.
I would personally make the pistol this
Pistol: S:1d6 M:2d4 18-20/x2 exploding dice
Musket S:2d4 M:2d6 19-20/x2 exploding diceGuns tend to do major damage more often than less often. This also means that a skilled (increased critical feat) gunslinger, can hit with more deadly shots more often, rather than 1 in 20... or 2 in 20 (with feat).
Why should guns be so much more deadly then say a crossbow or a longbow? I think the guns as presented are perfectly valid with a great advantage (the ability to make touch attacks) to make up for the slow loading times and misfire rules. My only gripe right now is with the cost of firearms and ammo.
I think ultimate combat should make guns viable weapons by presenting feats and archetypes that makes them worthwhile.
My problem is that as you level up through the ranks guns become less viable on a DPR scale. If I can use a Composite Longbow and get 4 shots per round doing 1d8+str I just don't see Firearms being competitive. Is Pathfinder/D&D all about combat? Not always, but being just a large portion the damage output of my character is an important part. If I am still doing 2d4+Dex with one shot at the same time a buddy is firing off 4 arrows then we have a problem. Even in the times of Pirates they even had a double barreled version that could atleast get 2 shots off a round, but even that isn't addressed.
I would like to see some sort of scaling by level increase to damage
for my purposes i would make combat style type options that start at level one when you select the sub-class.
Rifleman style:
lvl 1 Deadly Aim is gained as a bonus feat and is useable by a rifleman with two handed single shot firearms only (no scatterguns blunderbusses, or shotguns) even though it normally does not function with touch attacks.
lvl 6 marksman shot: as a standard action the rifleman may add a number of bonus d6's to one attack made with a rifle equal to his level (max 10d6). I am unsure if this ability should be able to benefit form the vital strike tree or not.
lvl 10 penetrating shot for every 5 BAB the marksman may "shoot through" a target to strike another one in a line behind the original target. wisdom number of times per day. Must sucessfully hit each target Each attack can crit if you miss a target the attack chain stops.
Pistoleer style:
lvl 1 the pistoleer gains rapid reload with one handed single shot firearms.
For every 5 BAB the pistoleer increases the damage dice of the one handed firearm he is using by 1 die category
lvl 6 smoke and thunder; reloading a single pistol is a free action, reloading multiple different pistols in one round is a move action. For the pistoleer pistols are considered light weapons for the two weapon fighting feat
lvl 10 ???
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If I am still doing 2d4+Dex with one shot at the same time a buddy is firing off 4 arrows then we have a problem.And when your buddy is trying to hit high armor classes and you're hitting touch AC he's going to be mad that your damage is higher than his.
Lets be honest...after like level 10 do you really have trouble hitting other than when you seriously roll poorly?
by level 10, you can afford to have 4-6 guns on you. While your frind uses the crossbow, you are using Quick Draw and free action drop to Fire, Fire, Fire, Fire 4 guns. After the fight, you go back and pick the guns up. ==And you do touch ac for all the attacks==
By level 15 at 25% starting wealth = You can have 8 (+2 bonus) guns. (would do +1/+bane = 2 vs humanoids, 2 vs animal, 2 vs deomons/outsider).
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by level 10, you can afford to have 4-6 guns on you. While your frind uses the crossbow, you are using Quick Draw and free action drop to Fire, Fire, Fire, Fire 4 guns. After the fight, you go back and pick the guns up. ==And you do touch ac for all the attacks==
By level 15 at 25% starting wealth = You can have 8 (+2 bonus) guns. (would do +1/+bane = 2 vs humanoids, 2 vs animal, 2 vs deomons/outsider).
Okay so that is all and good for ONE round, but what do you do when the archer just keeps pushing out 4 arrows a round? I see what you guys are saying, but I still feel that in a game where you are largely measured on the amount of damage you can put out in a round that the Gunslinger is going to fall behind. Sure you can pull out a sword and have at that monster with your trusty short sword, but that doesn't make you anything more than a Ranger with a pistol.
If I am still doing 2d4+Dex with one shot at the same time a buddy is firing off 4 arrows then we have a problem.And when your buddy is trying to hit high armor classes and you're hitting touch AC he's going to be mad that your damage is higher than his.
If one class is only getting one shot off a round I am sure he is not out damaging anyone even if he only needs a 2 on the dice.
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This is a playtest.
Instead of debating about what is "obvious", stat up the characters using the standard DPR Olympics rules - 10th level, 15 point buy, standard wealth, no "item cheese" like potions of cats grace instead of the belt. Make a 10th level Fighter archer, a 10th level gunslinger, and a 10th level Fighter gun-wielder. Run the numbers.
by level 10, you can afford to have 4-6 guns on you. While your frind uses the crossbow, you are using Quick Draw and free action drop to Fire, Fire, Fire, Fire 4 guns. After the fight, you go back and pick the guns up. ==And you do touch ac for all the attacks==
By level 15 at 25% starting wealth = You can have 8 (+2 bonus) guns. (would do +1/+bane = 2 vs humanoids, 2 vs animal, 2 vs deomons/outsider).
Who can afford that many enchanted weapons? Money is the only reason I have not tried a dagger throwing fighter build. Many things at that level at least have DR magic.
PS:What about the rest of your equipment. I agree with Bobchuck. I need to see number to be convinced and a build.
Spoiler:To be honest, that is one of the things we want to playtest. I also have concerns that the gunslinger is not reaching her proper damage potential, and some more tweaking of class features and deeds may have be done.Her current build mixed with feat choices, the class abilities she has right now, and how firearms work create a new standard when it comes to damage output for a class. Finding the right equation requires more data.
If you are playing a gunslinger, feel free (and by feel free I mean please do) take a little time and write down your accuracy and damage number in play. I am very interested in that data.
Change the damage the gunslinger does, not the damage the weapon does.
I would personally make the pistol this
Pistol: S:1d6 M:2d4 18-20/x2 exploding dice
Musket S:2d4 M:2d6 19-20/x2 exploding diceGuns tend to do major damage more often than less often. This also means that a skilled (increased critical feat) gunslinger, can hit with more deadly shots more often, rather than 1 in 20... or 2 in 20 (with feat).
Why should guns be so much more deadly then say a crossbow or a longbow? I think the guns as presented are perfectly valid with a great advantage (the ability to make touch attacks) to make up for the slow loading times and misfire rules. My only gripe right now is with the cost of firearms and ammo.
I think ultimate combat should make guns viable weapons by presenting feats and archetypes that makes them worthwhile.
Because you will never fire a gun as fast as a bow...
I have a character in a PbP game that is using a musket that does 4d6-2 and he doesn't outdamage the melee classes. I can easily produce an archer that does more damage.
Crossbows are already broken, and I house-rule them to cause more damage. If you can buy a bow with a +4 STR bonus (lets call that a 150# pull) why doesn't a crossbow with a 300# footpull cause more damage?
I hear what you're saying but keep in mind these aren't the pieces of technology we've come to know. They're the 17th century counterparts. With ranged touch attacks and bonus to damage based on Dex these things are already power houses. Throw Deadly Aim into the mix and they'll be doing 8-15 damage per shot @ 5th level. They're pretty nuts.
That is pretty low for level 5. Level 1 is where 8-15 is a decent number.
But not when you get above level 4: it should be much higher.Even the rogue is deal 1d6 +2 Str (assumed minimum unless weapon finesse) +3d6= 4d6 +2 which is 6-26, average is 16 damage.
And by level 5, that rogue can do it more than once around if TWFing.
Did you forget gun user can blow up his gun? Yeah not a good trade.
Only boon is touch attacks (which helps at low levels a lot)
Also remember.. These rules will be used when revolvers and gun clips come out. (if every....although i expect 3rd party publisher to do so in future).
Yes pistols and muskets are at a disadvantage, there rate of fire. Alway has been there disadvantaged.
........
But what about when you have 2 guns that can shoot 6 shoot each. (if you have 3 attack per round, you get 4 full round attacks, before needing to reload).
But what about when you get 2 guns that use clips 12 shoot each. Have a feat for rapid reload (free action to load). Your BAB let you get off 3 attack per round, so 8 full round attacks before even needing to reload.
........
While i look at guns, i also try to look to the modern and future use of gun, that will be using the rules, that are laid down for its foundation of use.
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Because you will never fire a gun as fast as a bow...
This.
Guns need to either be brought up to full rate of fire weapons, or they need to do damage that scales with level on each hit. As long as archers are able to turn on the damage fire hose there is very little appeal to a ranged weapons that does significantly less damage.
The bow is going to add that Holy/ Flaming/ Bardic Song/ whatever damage to each arrow, the gunslinger with his low rate of fire is going to have to do a lot to keep up with that progression.
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While the damage output is noticeably lower than an archers, your gunslinger is going to hit way more often, as long as he stays within the first range increment, since all attacks within the first range are touch attacks, and most of the monsters, even at high levels don't have above a 20 touch ac. While I do agree there needs to be something that increases the damage, maybe class ability, or let the gunslinger count as a fighter for purpose of feats that relate to guns. Something does need to be done, but maybe not as much as people think.
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Throw in Vital Strike, and you have some pretty decent damage (if lvl 16+, your looking @ 4d12+dex+other bonuses) which isn't anything to scoff at.
Granted, you can only fire once every other round without grit or other modifiers, and I'm assuming you take rapid reload, but it's still not bad.
Other feats to take would be deadly aim and point blank shot. Still not crazy awesome, but it's comparable, for a touch attack. And to solve the defense issue, you could also take Combat Expertise and shrug off the penalties, since your attacks are touch.
You can also dual wield/get lots of shots with multiple pistols, 2-weapon fighting, and quick draw.
We also don't know what other guns they may add later, so the "single attack" concept may become moot.
Throw in Vital Strike, and you have some pretty decent damage (if lvl 16+, your looking @ 4d12+dex+other bonuses) which isn't anything to scoff at.
Granted, you can only fire once every other round without grit or other modifiers, and I'm assuming you take rapid reload, but it's still not bad.
Other feats to take would be deadly aim and point blank shot. Still not crazy awesome, but it's comparable, for a touch attack. And to solve the defense issue, you could also take Combat Expertise and shrug off the penalties, since your attacks are touch.
You can also dual wield/get lots of shots with multiple pistols, 2-weapon fighting, and quick draw.
We also don't know what other guns they may add later, so the "single attack" concept may become moot.
Vital Strike Chain is a big investment in feats and simply doesn't provide an adequate return on investment. The increase in base damage dice simple doesn't provide that much of an increase in DPR. 4d12 is only 19.5 more damage per round than 1d12.
Keep in mind that the Gunslinger needs to measure up in terms of DPR and utility with the Archer Fighter. A comparable Archer is going to be doing full attacks with all the Rapid shot, Many shot attacks factored in.
Unless you have some viable way of doing full attacks with a musket or pistol (which either requires lightning reload spam or abusing free actions with quick draw and numerous firearms) you DPR in comparison to the archer is going to be frustrating at the least.
You do get to add your Dex mod to damage as of Lvl 5 with Gun Training.
x4 Crit multiplier.Also, Radney-Macfarland mentioned elsewhere that the bullet/black powder cost is still a point of contention in development and not yet set in stone.
Also, once people start picking up things like Rapid reload/Secret stash, and eventually Signature Deed, damage output really needs to be watched.
I think this is something that will be watched very closely in these playtests.
Sure, I guess though I would hope that guns would be something you could reasonably use without taking an entire 20 level class devoted to them... Bows have decent damage from just a dude with a couple feats, same with melee weapons. If I need a 5th level class power to make guns competitive, then certainly there's a 5th level class power out there for some other class that makes arrows way better still (arcane archer?)
I like the cost being reasonably high, I think it's more flavorful to have "guns different from bows" and not "guns are reskinned bows" (the latter approach has its adherents) - I just think they need more damage for the costs.
To be honest, that is one of the things we want to playtest. I also have concerns that the gunslinger is not reaching her proper damage potential, and some more tweaking of class features and deeds may have be done.
Her current build mixed with feat choices, the class abilities she has right now, and how firearms work create a new standard when it comes to damage output for a class. Finding the right equation requires more data.
If you are playing a gunslinger, feel free (and by feel free I mean please do) take a little time and write down your accuracy and damage number in play. I am very interested in that data.
Thanks Stephen. Are the guns themselves on topic or off topic? I think the Gunslinger is good, it's gun damage that's a problem. Fixing that by making the Gunslinger better means guns may as well be something that can only be used by that class like alchemist stuff. If I swap our gun-using characters (not Gunslingers) over to these gun rules do the results matter, or are the gun rules "fixed" and it's just the slinger under playtest?
While the damage output is noticeably lower than an archers, your gunslinger is going to hit way more often, as long as he stays within the first range increment, since all attacks within the first range are touch attacks, and most of the monsters, even at high levels don't have above a 20 touch ac. While I do agree there needs to be something that increases the damage, maybe class ability, or let the gunslinger count as a fighter for purpose of feats that relate to guns. Something does need to be done, but maybe not as much as people think.
At mid level the vast majority of characters can do something that is equivalent to or better a touch attack for 1d8 damage. Heck, our cleric of Gozreh is a gun-toter and he is starting to just forget about them and use his icicle bursts instead. Free, usable every round, bypasses DR, and is a touch attack.
In all the movies/books from about the era of muskets (3 Musketeers, Pirates, are recent examples), the primary weapons of the era are still swords, muskets and pistols were fired once and then abandoned for ther sword, or saved for a despirate moment to kill at range and go back to melee.
And I think this is a great model to follow, and the feel I'd like to see out of firearms in the game.
I think it's important - and a bit insulting - to note that the gunslinger is an entire class devoted to one single specific weapon, and "any old fighter bloke who has a bow" can out-do him.
What happens when they add Revolvers ( 6 shot) guns.
Then with 2 revolvers, you can take 4 full round actions before needing to reload. (ya assuming you can make 3 attack per round)
What happens when they add Revolvers ( 6 shot) guns.
Then with 2 revolvers, you can take 4 full round actions before needing to reload. (ya assuming you can make 3 attack per round)
Then we're clearly not playing medieval fantasy any more and I have to outlaw the whole thing in my campaign.
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What happens when they add Revolvers ( 6 shot) guns.
Then with 2 revolvers, you can take 4 full round actions before needing to reload. (ya assuming you can make 3 attack per round)
And, except in very exceptional circumstances, the equivalent archer will still outperform you.
Assuming the gunslinger has the extra attack from Rapid Shot, the archer gets 3 attacks with 4 arrows, with a 30' range, before having to make any changes to his to hit or damage numbers. So, 12 shots, 16 arrows, against the same AC as the gunslinger, unless you can somehow remain within 20' without getting engaged. And the range increments on both weapons mean that an archer can handle flying opponents without having to be able to fly himself, unlike the gunslinger.
That is ignoring the effects of Haste or it's equivalents (Boots of Speed or the Speed enhancement to a weapon).
Add the Haste to both, and the gunslinger drops to 3 rounds, and the archer is up to 15 arrows in the same time span.
And, that doesn't count in the effect of the Point-Blank Master feat from the APG. Base the Archer? No problem, he gets to go all-out at point blank range against his target. Base the gunslinger? Well, it depends on how much grit he has available, since he will be burning it to shoot without provoking attacks. And using it to reload without provoking...
Assuming you specialize in Dex for the to hit and AC bonuses, the gunslinger may not have all that much grit available, while the archer is limited only by the number of cheap arrows he has on-hand.
12 shots = 132 gp
15 arrows = 5 sp
Assuming efficient quivers, that archer can have enough arrows to keep up his barrage for 10 rounds, 40-50 arrows, and only spend 2-3 GP on consumables, somewhat more if he needs to use special arrows.
10 rounds for the gunslinger, assuming he can somehow get all his attacks each round, is 30-40 bullets and black powder charges, so 330-440 gp. Ouch. Even adding in the secret stash feat only reduces those numbers by 33 gp.
Just for something to think about:
I have a 9th level PC in PFSOP, 7 levels of Fighter, 1 level of Cleric, 1 level of Ranger, and he can put 4 arrows in the air in a round without using Haste, with a to hit ranging from a single arrow at 31' up at +17, to an all-out shoot at +10 to hit, also at 31' plus. His base damage is 1d8+7, going up to 1d8+14 if the opponent is soft enough and within the 30' range.
That isn't counting his ability to use a wand of Gravity Bow to change the bow damage base from 1d8 to 2d6, and this character has only a 22 Dex (18 base, +2 for level, +2 belt) and a 16 Str. Also, his bow is only +1, the other +1 enhancement was spent on Seeking...
Since when has Pathfinder been medieval fantasy to begin with.Then we're clearly not playing medieval fantasy any more and I have to outlaw the whole thing in my campaign.What happens when they add Revolvers ( 6 shot) guns.
Then with 2 revolvers, you can take 4 full round actions before needing to reload. (ya assuming you can make 3 attack per round)
Since when has it mattered? I'm not sure if you mean Pathfinder RPG, or Pathfinder Golarion Setting.
If the former, he's perfectly within his rights as GM to say 'My world is medieval fantasy, revolver's don't exist in medieval fantasy, ergo revolvers are forbidden'.
If the latter, since when does what happens in Golarion affect any of the umpteen thousand homebrew worlds, and why would any GM in the right mind care what Golarion is set up to be if he's not using it as a setting?
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Then we're clearly not playing medieval fantasy any more and I have to outlaw the whole thing in my campaign.What happens when they add Revolvers ( 6 shot) guns.
Then with 2 revolvers, you can take 4 full round actions before needing to reload. (ya assuming you can make 3 attack per round)
Yet you want medieval style firearms to be much better than they actually were (clue: they weren't better than a longbow by a long shot, they were, in fact, worse, until well past the Renaissance).
And the very name "gunslinger" is a Wild West concept, involving six guns. If the name were "musketeer", well, that's a little closer to the medieval era.
I am confused now.
Then we're clearly not playing medieval fantasy any more and I have to outlaw the whole thing in my campaign.What happens when they add Revolvers ( 6 shot) guns.
Then with 2 revolvers, you can take 4 full round actions before needing to reload. (ya assuming you can make 3 attack per round)
Bad news man: D&D spellcasters ain't medieval fantasy either.
What happens when they add Revolvers ( 6 shot) guns.
Then with 2 revolvers, you can take 4 full round actions before needing to reload. (ya assuming you can make 3 attack per round)
Bump, since everyone got side tracked.
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I've been running guns using mongoose press' OGL Steampunk in my games since back in 2006 (they're the only sets of firearm rules I've liked), and those are the rules I've been using in my pathfinder games, and they haven't been noticeably better than bows (a bit at low levels), but they're definitely comparable.
Pistol, Light: 75gp, 1d6, (s) 1d8(m), x3 crit, 20 ft. range increment, 3lb. Piercing.
Pistol, Medium: 137.5gp, 1d10, (s) 2d6(m), x3 crit, 50 ft. range increment, 5lb. Piercing.
Pistol, Heavy: 175gp, 2d6, (s) 2d8(m), x3 crit, 20 ft. range increment, 6lb. Piercing.
Musket: 250gp, 1d10 (s), 2d6(m), x3, 100ft. 12 lb. Piercing.
These are percussion caps, so like early 1700s era single shot guns, which is as advanced as I let my players go in terms of guns (like Pirates of the Caribbean), though they have rules for the older guns as well. (no revolvers).
Full round action to load.
Flintlocks (with an external powder tray) take 3 move actions to load, do a bit more damage, and malfunction on a 1-3.
Additionally, Martial weapons. Arguably they're simple weapons. They're almost as easy to use as a crossbow. In my current game, I'm using Unearthed Arcana Weapon groups, and I simply added a firearms group.
As an anecdote, the players were fighting a goblin pirate(fighter 5 or 6) at one point, who had quick draw, and every round, drew another heavy pistol, shot someone, and dropped it. He was an awe inspiring goblin, and the players really remembered that fight. That fight also had a minotaur with 1 level in fighter pull out a heavy pistol (large) once and shoot someone, and they were sufficiently impressed by the large creature pistol.
I guess what I'm saying is a few things:
1. Weapons should be more universally accessible than one PrC, unless the DM removes them.
2. Those weapons are far too overpriced, though the x4 crit and touch ac at close range are quite nice, they aren't worth the price.
3. You may hit with them frequently, but they do pretty bad damage unless you crit. (Unless the pistol in the playtest is intended as the weakest and cheapest pistol option, in which case, we need a medium and heavy version).
I think I should be able to build a decent gun guy with a basic ranger, fighter, or rogue, without much trouble. I can see a ranger build that does some kind of two weapon fighting and crossbow technique combat style working out well, and I've allowed it before. Dual pistols, using basic twf stuff with rapid reload and quick draw in the list of choosable feats.
I don't think a new archetype is needed here neadly as much as some better weapon stats. A Gunslinger Alt. Class is a cool idea, but I think the weapons need some better pricing, and more options first.
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Ah...
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If I read correctly, the firearm rules are not up for debate, and will be staying as possible the worst weapons in the game.
-Exotic Weapon Feat
-Ridiculous Pricing
-Slow Reload.
-Crappy Damage.
Admittably the guns I referenced have the same damage and a longer reload time, but for less than a 10th the cost.
This is hugely disappointing, and makes a gunslinger class, or a pirate who uses a gun, very difficult to accomplish, and almost only doable in a class that offsets the terrible weapon with class abilities, and even then it would be difficult.
It should be noted, I haven't gotten to the class yet. Just the firearm rules, and reading other reviews of the classes. I was hoping the firearm rules would be more useful to other classes, but they're rather inaccessible to most characters.
When guns made their first appearances on the battle field the idea was that anyone could land a killing blow and wouldn't need more than five mins training to shoot someone opposed to the extensive training required in armour and blades. These guns pull that off in that a lvl 1 fighter could be killed by a skilless peasant with two pistols. Unless they want to make the gunslingers damage with a gun scale to make him as powerful as an archer (not lots of shots but the same damage from one shot as a round of arrows) then this class is kinda pointless realy. In my opinion its dosen't realy desrve a whole class as it is, more like an alternate class feature for fighters; i think the idea is you do melee combat with the occasional pistol shot or use the musket before a charge.
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When guns made their first appearances on the battle field the idea was that anyone could land a killing blow ...
And reality didn't catch up to the idea for nearly 300 years. There's a reason it took a LONG time for hand held firearms to completely replace everything else. Mostly that they weren't terribly effective until the evolution of design made them do what the idea asked.
And, by the time they were effective, they bore zero resemblance to anything that could be called "medieval".
So, again, the OP confuses me with what he wants. Effective firearms are NOT medieval, not by a long shot.
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Bad news man: D&D spellcasters ain't medieval fantasy either.Then we're clearly not playing medieval fantasy any more and I have to outlaw the whole thing in my campaign.What happens when they add Revolvers ( 6 shot) guns.
Then with 2 revolvers, you can take 4 full round actions before needing to reload. (ya assuming you can make 3 attack per round)
Nor are 90% of the monsters, most of the meta-setting conceits, or much of anything in the game, really.
Technically a musket is an 18th century weapon and the arquebus is a 15th century weapon, both of which indicate that firearms as commonly described in D&D settings is Renaissance or even Romantic period.
Further the truth of the matter is that the musket or the arquebus are good weapons that are even setting changing in certain circumstances. The problem is that the primary advantages (low training time, good penetration of armor) and the primary disadvantages (poor rate of fire) are not compatible with small unit action with virtual demigods ie PC groups in D&D.
Firearms benefit from big units of soldiers being set up to do volley fire. The first rank shoots, then the second rank steps up, then the third and so on. Eventually the first rank has reloaded and the process begins anew.
The component parts of these units are going to be warriors lvl 1-2. d12 x4 is a very lethal weapon in these circumstances where avg HP is somewhere between 6.5-13 HPs.
Notice however that the opposition isn't a level 20 Fighter with tons are HPs or a Colossal Red Dragon.
You have to make the weapon scalable that it isn't just an overpriced weapon for peasant conscripts. That means the damage and weapon capabilities need to work for the level 1 warrior and the level 20 gunslinger.
The current stats don't really work for either; it's either too expensive to be a peasant levy weapon and too awful to be a consistent basis for a PC class.
And reality didn't catch up to the idea for nearly 300 years. There's a reason it took a LONG time for hand held firearms to completely replace everything else. Mostly that they weren't terribly effective until the evolution of design made them do what the idea asked.And, by the time they were effective, they bore zero resemblance to anything that could be called "medieval".
So, again, the OP confuses me with what he wants. Effective firearms are NOT medieval, not by a long shot.
I guess i didn't make it clear but what i was impling is that the majority of people are not trained for combat and would be no challenge for a trained swordsman, but then they have a better chance of killing when given one of these crude guns. This is how the guns presented here are, what i'm saying is that you wouldn't focus on guns as an entire class if they stay at this level of effectiveness. If they want it to become a vialbe option then the guns need to become better or stay an amusing flavor option for all characters.