Open a Tread on the subject of Touch Attack and there effects.
Touch attack and High level creatures.
Most Magic spells that do touch attack to high level creatures have to get throw Spell Resistance, Saving Throws, Elemental Immunity, and Resistance.
Guns Touch attack have to get throw Damage Reduction.
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Even if you take a -4 penality, if the creature has +5 or more natural/armor then it is worth shooting it. If your fighting a demon with +20 natural armor (DR 10/good). Have a cleric align you gun, before you shoot and the DR disappears.
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Was this the intent?
I didn't liked the touch attack thing. Sure, there must be a payoff for 11gp a shoot and the crappy range increment, but still. At higher levels, when you can full attack freely with Lightning Reload/Signature Deed, it can become an issue, as McShade pointed.
Abraham spalding pointed an alternative in another thread. Make the target flat-footed against your attacks in the first increment. First bullets were fast, not exactly armor penetrant.
Or just let it be a normal attack. Then cut the prices down, and double the range increment.
I kind of like that too, but I get the feeling that that's part of the firearms rules that are already hard wired.You know early firearms were not noted for penetrating armor -- but the shots were fast. Why not make it use the targets flat footed AC in the first range increment instead of touch?
Granted rogues will like the weapon but they'll still only be getting one shot and well rogues should like the weapon.
Re-posted here as reference.
Just think about all the movies you've seen in which guns were used against demons and monsters. What happened? Oh, right. They were useless.
That's why we reference video games.
Have no problem with gun and touch attack.
The question is what kind of defense are used vs range touch attack.
Every spell that does Range Touch attack damage, also allows a Reflex saving throw. The spell also has to by pass Spell Resistance. Then many creatures have elemental resist or elemental immunity.
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Also, it is to the degree that a 1st level character can bypass =
A CR 19 Ancient Red Dragon = AC 38, Touch AC 5, Flat-footed 38.
Range touch attack By magic spell has to contend with = SR 30, Immune fire, vulnerable to cold, + 22 fort save, +13 ref save, +21 will save.
Range touch attack by gun has to contend with = DR 15/magic.
Enchant the gun +1 (1st level spell on gun). And you bypass the DR all together.
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Should not Range touch attack from guns also give the target at least a Reflex saving throw for half damage.
Have no problem with gun and touch attack.
The question is what kind of defense are used vs range touch attack.
Every spell that does Range Touch attack damage, also allows a Reflex saving throw. The spell also has to by pass Spell Resistance. Then many creatures have elemental resist or elemental immunity.
...........
Also, it is to the degree that a 1st level character can bypass =
A CR 19 Ancient Red Dragon = AC 38, Touch AC 5, Flat-footed 38.
Range touch attack By magic spell has to contend with = SR 30, Immune fire, vulnerable to cold, + 22 fort save, +13 ref save, +21 will save.
Range touch attack by gun has to contend with = DR 15/magic.
Enchant the gun +1 (1st level spell on gun). And you bypass the DR all together.
............
Should not Range touch attack from guns also give the target at least a Reflex saving throw for half damage.
Acid Arrow
Acid ArrowHave no problem with gun and touch attack.
The question is what kind of defense are used vs range touch attack.
Every spell that does Range Touch attack damage, also allows a Reflex saving throw. The spell also has to by pass Spell Resistance. Then many creatures have elemental resist or elemental immunity.
...........
Also, it is to the degree that a 1st level character can bypass =
A CR 19 Ancient Red Dragon = AC 38, Touch AC 5, Flat-footed 38.
Range touch attack By magic spell has to contend with = SR 30, Immune fire, vulnerable to cold, + 22 fort save, +13 ref save, +21 will save.
Range touch attack by gun has to contend with = DR 15/magic.
Enchant the gun +1 (1st level spell on gun). And you bypass the DR all together.
............
Should not Range touch attack from guns also give the target at least a Reflex saving throw for half damage.
Good Point.
Let me go get those 8 pistols and a lether strap to hold them, my cleric is going to be Packing now :)
Also, it is to the degree that a 1st level character can bypass =
A CR 19 Ancient Red Dragon = AC 38, Touch AC 5, Flat-footed 38.
Range touch attack By magic spell has to contend with = SR 30, Immune fire, vulnerable to cold, + 22 fort save, +13 ref save, +21 will save.
Range touch attack by gun has to contend with = DR 15/magic.
Enchant the gun +1 (1st level spell on gun). And you bypass the DR all together.
For the dragon fight the first level character is going to be taking negatives to hit the ancient dragon (without instant death) to the point touch AC of 5 is going to be harder to hit than you'd think.
Let me go get those 8 pistols and a lether strap to hold them, my cleric is going to be Packing now :)
Your pistol packing cleric will invest into firearm and grit feats.
First level Cleric feat _ Exoti...oh that's right there's that pesky +1 BAB requirement for the feat.
3rd - Exotic Weapon Prof. (firearms)
5th - Amatuer Gunslinger (Suggestion: Add the exotic weapon req. to this feat.)
7th - I can do my touch attack...but what's that you are saying DM, you say that I'm taking a -4 for firing into melee AND it has soft cover? Well I guess I'll be taking point blank shot.
9th - Precise Shot.
Requires a substantial level of investment. You would have a better argument for the best BAB classes obtaining an edge for three reasons, a) more feats, b) stronger attack has a higher probability of mitigating soft cover and firing into melee c) Obtaing grit easier/faster (haphazard classes).
Let's take a second to be CONSTRUCTIVE would a higher level be a better place for the ability, increase the grit cost, would making it a standard action, or full round action help, combination of the above or is the ability so horrendous that it must be removed?
Increase the grit cost.
I never said my cleric was going to invest feats into grit or class.
I never said i was going to take the exotic weapon Prof (fireamrs).
((precise shot i will take for bows, rays, and other weapon))=So when possible ya, will have gotten that feat if possible based on build.
I just said, my cleric was just going to be packing now.
Take the -4 penalty for not being proficient. And at 10-20 feet from target everyone open fire on that Touch 5 AC +penalty = AC 9. The fighter drop there gun, quick pull there sword and attack. The caster stay 10-20 feet away, and keep firing into melee AC 13 now.
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True, 1st level would be dead right off the bat from breath weapon. But 1st level player can now reasonable hit a Ancient Red Dragon AC.
Was mainly showing how high CR creatures, with +15 or better natural armor, are not vulnerable to guns attacks.
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Anyway, as a Player i do not mind, as a DM it does have me worried.
Just think about all the movies you've seen in which guns were used against demons and monsters. What happened? Oh, right. They were useless.
D&D ain't a movie, bro.
I never said my cleric was going to invest feats into grit or class.
I never said i was going to take the exotic weapon Prof (fireamrs).((precise shot i will take for bows, rays, and other weapon))=So when possible ya, will have gotten that feat if possible based on build.
I just said, my cleric was just going to be packing now.
Take the -4 penalty for not being proficient. And at 10-20 feet from target everyone open fire on that Touch 5 AC +penalty = AC 9. The fighter drop there gun, quick pull there sword and attack. The caster stay 10-20 feet away, and keep firing into melee AC 13 now.
...................
True, 1st level would be dead right off the bat from breath weapon. But 1st level player can now reasonable hit a Ancient Red Dragon AC.
Was mainly showing how high CR creatures, with +15 or better natural armor, are not vulnerable to guns attacks.
................
Anyway, as a Player i do not mind, as a DM it does have me worried.
Isn't throwing acid vials at the red dragon about as effective damagewise, and much better cost/feat wise?
Just think about all the movies you've seen in which guns were used against demons and monsters. What happened? Oh, right. They were useless.D&D ain't a movie, bro.
Actually, its was
Sadly... =(
Just think about all the movies you've seen in which guns were used against demons and monsters. What happened? Oh, right. They were useless.D&D ain't a movie, bro.Actually, its was
Sadly... =(
We don't speak of that trash. Begone!
I never said my cleric was going to invest feats into grit or class.
I never said i was going to take the exotic weapon Prof (fireamrs).((precise shot i will take for bows, rays, and other weapon))=So when possible ya, will have gotten that feat if possible based on build.
I just said, my cleric was just going to be packing now.
Take the -4 penalty for not being proficient. And at 10-20 feet from target everyone open fire on that Touch 5 AC +penalty = AC 9. The fighter drop there gun, quick pull there sword and attack. The caster stay 10-20 feet away, and keep firing into melee AC 13 now.
My feat diagram for the caster hasn't changed, especially if he is using the lowest BAB, and not proficient in firearms, still at a disadvantage. Grit is a resource a caster is probably not likely to replenish that often, it may be they have use of Deadeye(sp) once per day.
This further reinforces my feelings that amateur gunslinger needs a required exotic weapon proficiency (fireamrs to use), and secondly I think a WIS 13+ should also be included to the feat to further stifle exploitation of the Deadeye (sp) ability.
Would also add the backfire chance should increase by +4 to compliment the -4 for being non proficient.
True, 1st level would be dead right off the bat from breath weapon. But 1st level player can now reasonable hit a Ancient Red Dragon AC.
Was mainly showing how high CR creatures, with +15 or better natural armor, are not vulnerable to guns attacks.
I get your point, so move the ability to a higher level. In another post you pointed out how the warrior still out damaged the gunslinger not making them equal in terms of damage, but does Deadeye(sp)help balance out the difference?
Correction to earlier post
Change = ""are not vulnerable to guns attacks.""
To = "are vulnerable to gun attacks.""
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PS = I like the D&D movies, no lord of the rings, but served its purpose, was entertaining to watch for 1-2 hours.
P-PS = Vyctor Cross, i did not make that point, might have been somone else. sorry.
Just think about all the movies you've seen in which guns were used against demons and monsters. What happened? Oh, right. They were useless.D&D ain't a movie, bro.Actually, its was
Sadly... =(
Just like the Tsukihime anime, it doesn't exist.
8 pistols=8000 GP
add masterwork=2400 GP
add +1=16000 GP
total=26,400 GP + ammo for your cleric. 8th level minimum by WBL. I have no problem with that.
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(maybe it was on another post, anyway)
I said that the only defense that a Ancient Brass Dragon had vs Gun Touch attack was there Damage Resistance.
I Was Wrong = They Have No Defence.
I had forgotten than Damage Resistance does not apply vs Touch Attacks. As listed on page 561 = Damage Reduction = PF PHB.
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sorry = so many rules, hard to keep track of them all.
I had forgotten than Damage Resistance does not apply vs Touch Attacks. As listed on page 561 = Damage Reduction = PF PHB.I believe the line you are referencing is one that doesn't below: Later books do not include such a line (such as the universal monster rules in the bestiary and elsewhere).
Besides since the firearm (or ammunition) is likely to be magical anyways when you are fighting dragons then their DR isn't going to matter all the same.
Ok thanks for the update... I see what your say about Damage Resistance in Bestiary, page 299, as having been updated.
What I don't like about it being a touch attack, is that with full BAB, high dexterity and various other bonuses, this ceases to be an attack and simply becomes a "Roll to see if you get a 1 or not." It will succeed on pretty much anything else.
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(maybe it was on another post, anyway)
I said that the only defense that a Ancient Brass Dragon had vs Gun Touch attack was there Damage Resistance.
I Was Wrong = They Have No Defence.
I had forgotten than Damage Resistance does not apply vs Touch Attacks. As listed on page 561 = Damage Reduction = PF PHB.
.......................
sorry = so many rules, hard to keep track of them all.
Wait, what?
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/glossary.htmlWhat it is saying is: the attack still happens, but the damage is lessened still.
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I said that the only defense that a Ancient Brass Dragon had vs Gun Touch attack was there Damage Resistance.I Was Wrong = They Have No Defence.
I had forgotten than Damage Resistance does not apply vs Touch Attacks. As listed on page 561 = Damage Reduction = PF PHB.
Except its NOT a touch attack, it merely resolves against touch AC. A small, but distinct, difference. So DR will still apply. If it was a touch attack, the rules would say it was a ranged touch attack, instead it says
"When firing upon a target within a firearm’s first range increment, the attack resolves against the target’s touch AC."
More confusion in a class already confusing :)
I said that the only defense that a Ancient Brass Dragon had vs Gun Touch attack was there Damage Resistance.I Was Wrong = They Have No Defence.
I had forgotten than Damage Resistance does not apply vs Touch Attacks. As listed on page 561 = Damage Reduction = PF PHB.
Except its NOT a touch attack, it merely resolves against touch AC. A small, but distinct, difference. So DR will still apply. If it was a touch attack, the rules would say it was a ranged touch attack, instead it says
"When firing upon a target within a firearm’s first range increment, the attack resolves against the target’s touch AC."
More confusion in a class already confusing :)
1) DR will work, because they update it in monster and pathfinder main document. (i had looked at the old phb).
2) "resolves against the target’s touch AC". To me, it still sound like a Range touch attack. All combat resolves against something. Give me something else that back up this beside that one word.
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2) "resolves against the target’s touch AC". To me, it still sound like a Range touch attack. All combat resolves against something. Give me something else that back up this beside that one word.
Ill counter with this: if it was a ranged touch attack, why don't they just put "An attack with a gun within its first range increment is a ranged touch attack"? Instead, they very specifically state what I had quoted before. Its not like a ranged touch attack is a new mechanic they need to describe, using that terminology makes it very clear. Instead it tells its resolved against touch AC, not that its a ranged touch attack. So its a normal ranged attack that just happens to resolve against touch AC instead of normal AC in a specific situation.
Ill counter with this: if it was a ranged touch attack, why don't they just put "An attack with a gun within its first range increment is a ranged touch attack"? Instead, they very specifically state what I had quoted before. Its not like a ranged touch attack is a new mechanic they need to describe, using that terminology makes it very clear. Instead it tells its resolved against touch AC, not that its a ranged touch attack. So its a normal ranged attack that just happens to resolve against touch AC instead of normal AC in a specific situation.
2) "resolves against the target’s touch AC". To me, it still sound like a Range touch attack. All combat resolves against something. Give me something else that back up this beside that one word.
If that was the case, then why did they say "Deadly Aim" combat feat would not work, with guns
So, first I gotta say I love the Gunslinger and am planning on playing as one ASAP, but I have a couple of questions that I want to make sure I asked first.
1) Deadly Aim does not work with firearms when they are in range of a touch attack, correct? But it does work when the target is greater than one range increment away?
2) What other types of firearms are there, other than pistol and musket? I ask because the Gunslinger gets the Gun Training four times, and we currently only have two guns for it...
3) I take it that each weapon in Gun Training only gets the +1 to hit once, and that's it?
1) As written, you cannot use the Deadly Aim feat for firearm range increments that target touch AC. And while I understand that is annoying, we will have to have an internal discussion on how to rectify that disconnect. It comes with the assumption that touch attacks always come from spells, which is obviously no longer the case.
Thank you for pointing that out.
2) There are a number of other firearms. There are two additional ones in the Inner Sea Guide and there are more in Ultimate Combat. We gave you the ones we want to try out for this playtest. We like to have our secrets. ;-)
3) That’s correct. There is part of me that hates the fact that I we have to point that out, but maybe we have to point that out.