I do kind of like the way it was implemented. I especially like the way they can take Rogue talents. However, I see several Ninja Tricks that should be rogue talents as well.
My biggest issue is... it's just too much like a rogue. There's just not enough to differentiate it, and it's highly derivative of a rogue. I think it should be more of a subclass of rogue than a full class (similar to the Anti-Paladin being a sub-class of paladin). That may be what they have planned of course.
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I do kind of like the way it was implemented. I especially like the way they can take Rogue talents. However, I see several Ninja Tricks that should be rogue talents as well.
My biggest issue is... it's just too much like a rogue. There's just not enough to differentiate it, and it's highly derivative of a rogue. I think it should be more of a subclass of rogue than a full class (similar to the Anti-Paladin being a sub-class of paladin). That may be what they have planned of course.
Yup, Jason did say that Ninja is a Rogue alternate class, while Samurai is a Cavalier altclass. Votes are up on whether Gunslinger is still an altclass or a new class on its own.
That's precisely what it is, mdt. They just reprint the whole chart to show the changes since it is more involved than an archetype.
Ok, that's better then. :)
You know I'm not in love with the sheer amount of power that seems to be in the ninja. I'm not sure on that yet though since it is at least based off of the *ahem* most... beneficial stat mechanically.
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I think it should be a Ranger Archtype rather than a Rogue one.
I had some thoughts about it as a new class but in hindsight and archtype is probably a better way to go as the core of that thought was using the Ranger mechanics as a base and converting it.
I think that the rogue mechanics don't fit as well as the Ranger mechanics. My conception is that both the ranger and ninja are low armor warriors who also use magic. Sneak attack isn't really what the classic understood ninja was about as much as being a skilled warrior.
So I would suggest going that route.
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I think it should be a Ranger Archtype rather than a Rogue one.
I had some thoughts about it as a new class but in hindsight and archtype is probably a better way to go as the core of that thought was using the Ranger mechanics as a base and converting it.
I think that the rogue mechanics don't fit as well as the Ranger mechanics. My conception is that both the ranger and ninja are low armor warriors who also use magic. Sneak attack isn't really what the classic understood ninja was about as much as being a skilled warrior.
So I would suggest going that route.
The classic understood ninja isn't the conceptual base of this class. The Awesome Mystical Shadow Strike Shuriken Storm That Slices You In Half With a Single Swing ninja is. Also, it would be rather silly if both assassin options ("vanilla" assassin and Red Mantis) had access to sneak attack, but their eastern counterpart didn't.
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. Votes are up on whether Gunslinger is still an altclass or a new class on its own.The gunslinger is an alternate class for the fighter core classdid you miss that?
I didn't, but you missed that:
That said, even we are unsure about the gunslinger. It could easily bump over to be its own base class. That is what the playtest is for to be honest.
Can you play a rogue/ninja? Does a Rogue 1/Ninja 1 really get +2d6 sneak attack?
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The classic understood ninja isn't the conceptual base of this class. The Awesome Mystical Shadow Strike Shuriken Storm That Slices You In Half With a Single Swing ninja is. Also, it would be rather silly if both assassin options ("vanilla" assassin and Red Mantis) had access to sneak attack, but their eastern counterpart didn't.I think it should be a Ranger Archtype rather than a Rogue one.
I had some thoughts about it as a new class but in hindsight and archtype is probably a better way to go as the core of that thought was using the Ranger mechanics as a base and converting it.
I think that the rogue mechanics don't fit as well as the Ranger mechanics. My conception is that both the ranger and ninja are low armor warriors who also use magic. Sneak attack isn't really what the classic understood ninja was about as much as being a skilled warrior.
So I would suggest going that route.
But if those two things already exist to fill that role, why make an "eastern counterpart" that does the same thing?
A properly balanced Arcane Ranger is something I'd like to play, and a ninja is the perfect place to put that concept rather than just kind ninjifying rogue tricks.
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I think it's because people want to do Crazy Ninja Stuff ... I want to do Crazy Ninja Stuff ... and I don't see the core Ranger mechanic (fav enemy) in there at all. Rogue feels more natural, to me at least.
That being said, the playtest Ninja is pretty frakkin' awesome. It's actually better (if not as versatile) than the core Rogue (APG changes that somewhat, but then again UC will introduce new Rogue and Ninja stuff, so the verdict is up in the air).
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I think it's because people want to do Crazy Ninja Stuff ... I want to do Crazy Ninja Stuff ... and I don't see the core Ranger mechanic (fav enemy) in there at all. Rogue feels more natural, to me at least.
That being said, the playtest Ninja is pretty frakkin' awesome. It's actually better (if not as versatile) than the core Rogue (APG changes that somewhat, but then again UC will introduce new Rogue and Ninja stuff, so the verdict is up in the air).
I would trade favored enemy for unarmored and poison use, and all the crazy ninja stuff falls under the ranger spell mechanics. Click on the link above to see my recommended spell list and class features. I think you'd like it, as we generally agree on most threads.
I am not upset by the class proposed, I just would personally go another way. We can agree to disagree.
Can you play a rogue/ninja? Does a Rogue 1/Ninja 1 really get +2d6 sneak attack?You cannot.
The ninja replaces the rogue class. You can only have levels in one or the other.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I am so smrt. S-M-R-T! Maybe I should have read the first portion of the playtest guide...
It does seem a bit much that it gets its own set of tricks and gets its own ki mechanic as well.
First impression is why is there a problem with this being a Base Class? One can't multiclass Rogue/Ninja? Why?
Ok, how about this...say you're a Rogue, running the streets, taking up jobs, treasure hunting, whatever. Now you find yourself in league with a clan of ninja, and after time, you find yourself awed, interested, and submitting to their ideals, goals, and forms of training to get the job done.
What exactly is preventing you from joining their ranks and learning the skills of the Ninja?
"Sorry, sir. Your abilities and talents are much too similar to ours to ever learn what we master. Oh, yes, you with the kung-fu and mystical mastery, you'e eligible. And, yes, you with the fullplate and greatsword, you'll do fine. Yes, even you, too, Mr. Bookworm Wizard, you, too can learn the trade of the Ninja. But, no, not you. Ever."
That makes no sense to me at all. At least with Paladin and Antipaladin, it makes sense. But Rogue/Ninja? (and even Fighter/Gunslinger, if it stays an alternate class, is silly not to be able to do, too).
Hence one of my reasons for this being a Base Class.
What exactly is preventing you from joining their ranks and learning the skills of the Ninja?Pathfinder hates multiclassing. :P
Apparently so LOL
So ,who is going to be the first to go Ninja/Zen archer(monk) with shurkens
I don't think you'll find a taker for that one.
Ok I looked this over because I feared it would be a better rogue..and it is. And not for any real reason other then "I am ninja so must be better" that I can see.
You trade trapfinding for poison use
You trade evasion for a ki pool
You trade No trace for trap sense
you trade master strike for hidden master
You gain light step
And you gain new rogue talents but call them ninja talents which bar a rogue from taken them, and you make them better then most rogue talents
This is just an archetype but better, it is better simply because it's a "Ninja". It has 5 changes, nothing more then an archtype with stuff normal rogues can't take because it is a "ninja"
Call it what it is an archetype and allow rogues to take the "ki or mystic or ninja " or what ever you want to call the new talents.
It needs balanced [Ki pool is too much, light step should replace something at lest} but it is an archetype nothing more. You are just cutting off other rogues because "They are not Asain so can't be as super cool as you"
Wow, I totally missed that. The Ninja LOSES Evasion?
That has to be the most erroneous thing to do to a Ninja class. It's SUPPOSED to have Evasion!
EDIT: Nevermind, it does get Evasion...if you choose it as a Ninja Master Trick by 10th or higher. Better than nothing, at least it bumps up to improved evasion if you get 2 levels of Monk for evasion. The WotC Ninja didn't get Evasion till 12th, so it's better than theirs at least.
Ok I looked this over because I feared it would be a better rogue..and it is. And not for any real reason other then "I am ninja so must be better" that I can see.
You trade trapfinding for poison use
You trade evasion for a ki pool
You trade No trace for trap sense
you trade master strike for hidden masterYou gain light step
And you gain new rogue talents but call them ninja talents which bar a rogue from taken them, and you make them better then most rogue talents
This is just an archetype but better, it is better simply because it's a "Ninja". It has 5 changes, nothing more then an archtype with stuff normal rogues can't take because it is a "ninja"
Call it what it is an archetype and allow rogues to take the "ki or mystic or ninja " or what ever you want to call the new talents.
It needs balanced [Ki pool is too much, light step should replace something at lest} but it is an archetype nothing more. You are just cutting off other rogues because "They are not Asain so can't be as super cool as you"
This is why Ninja needs to be its own base class. That way, you can skim off the Ninja tricks that overlap the Rogue Talents and vice versa, and if people really wanted an ability from one or the other, they'll have to suffer with multiclassing as a Rogue/Ninja. Which is a multiclass option that should be allowed anyway
Maybe that would be a case for trading your rogue levels for ninja levels?
Ok, how about this...say you're a Rogue, running the streets, taking up jobs, treasure hunting, whatever. Now you find yourself in league with a clan of ninja, and after time, you find yourself awed, interested, and submitting to their ideals, goals, and forms of training to get the job done.What exactly is preventing you from joining their ranks and learning the skills of the Ninja?
"Sorry, sir. Your abilities and talents are much too similar to ours to ever learn what we master. Oh, yes, you with the kung-fu and mystical mastery, you'e eligible. And, yes, you with the fullplate and greatsword, you'll do fine. Yes, even you, too, Mr. Bookworm Wizard, you, too can learn the trade of the Ninja. But, no, not you. Ever."
That makes no sense to me at all.
Still a silly concept. Why would sacrificing the use of some abilities you already mastered be required to learn new ones of a different profession? If I multiclass my Barbarian into a Wizard, I don't lose my Rage, Fast Movement, etc. just to cast arcane spells
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Wow, I totally missed that. The Ninja LOSES Evasion?
That has to be the most erroneous thing to do to a Ninja class. It's SUPPOSED to have Evasion!
I agree. And although I generally disagree with Seeker's position on the ninja he is right about this version.
It's better than the rogue, and that is a problem. A major problem that Pathfinder set out to address was to make sure base classes were not suboptimal.
This variant doesn't do what it was made to do, and frankly I don't think it can as a rogue variant. I already posted my suggestion.
Wow, I totally missed that. The Ninja LOSES Evasion?
That has to be the most erroneous thing to do to a Ninja class. It's SUPPOSED to have Evasion!
I agree. And although I generally disagree with Seeker's position on the ninja he is right about this version.
It's better than the rogue, and that is a problem. A major problem that Pathfinder set out to address was to make sure base classes were not suboptimal.
This variant doesn't do what it was made to do, and frankly I don't think it can as a rogue variant. I already posted my suggestion.
Pretty much. At this rate, I think Paizo's going to do the worst thing (IMO) to it and make it just a simple archtype. I feel as if they're trying to please everyone at once, but unless they're willing to make sacrifices, it's not happening. Either make it a Base Class or don't. I can see the Gunslinger being a Base Class and the Samurai staying as a Cavalier alternate. Things don't look too good for the Ninja, and it had such promise!
With the benefits of it being a Base Class, they can concentrate on giving it purely supernatural abilities or Ninja-only (like the bombs, master disguise, slow metabolism, wall climbing, etc.) that don't overlap with the Rogue Talents. It also opens the doors for multiclassing Rogue/Ninja, which is the route one should go if they want to dip some stuff from one into the other anyway.
There's also FEATS! They can easily allow a feat for Rogues to be able to take a Ninja Trick and a Ninja to take a Rogue Talent.
I feel as if there are many avenues they can take this, but they only want to stick with very few, or just one route.
Evasion is an advanced ninja trick if that helps.
One of the things I dig about Pathfinder is that it makes character creation choices difficult. Unless you're an optimizer or min/max type, there's something interesting in every class. Basically, if a build choice is obvious, and everyone takes it, that might be a sign it's imbalanced, e.g. stoneskin from AD&D, or haste from 3.0. That said, I cannot envision choosing a general rogue over the ninja as it is currently constructed. And I'm a person who thinks the mystical ninja stereotype is played-the-f$~%-out.
Zo
ah, man. Guess I will sit back and wait till the psionics book comes out so I can play a goblin psion and be Yoda.
The reason the zen archer doesn't work well with the ninja shurken thrower is due to the fact that most of the zen archer abilities only work with bows.
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Don't forget that the ninja can take at least one rogue talent with the rogue talent ninja talent!
Evasion is an advanced ninja trick if that helps.
yeah I edited my earlier post to reflect that, I noticed it right after a poster stated they lost it when I went to double check
The reason the zen archer doesn't work well with the ninja shurken thrower is due to the fact that most of the zen archer abilities only work with bows.
Unless of course Ultimate Combat also includes that rarest of ancient weapons, the shuriken bow . . . ;)
Don't forget that the ninja can take at least one rogue talent with the rogue talent ninja talent!
I can see them giving the Rogue the ability to do the same vice versa, if it comes down to them keeping Ninja as an alternate rogue class. The Ninja is optional in Ultimate Combat, so I am sure a sidebar will note a DM should add a new Rogue talent to allow them to take Ninja Tricks
Actually, Ultimate Combat has new stuff for Rogues, especially talents. So that means one of them will allow a Rogue to take Ninja tricks.
I'm really hoping the way to "balance" ninjas against other rogues isn't to make Ultimate Combat archetypes obviously better than other rogues. That's exactly the death spiral of rapid power creep inflation I worry about.
Too late! :)
Okay, point taken, but I'm hoping not to leap frog over that two more times this year . . . ;)