No need to introduce revolvers. The class can full attack by 11 when using Grit at no cost to reload as a free action.
I don't agree with this at all. I'm not prepared to take a martial class that can't benefit from his multiple attacks per round until 11th level, but that's just me.
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Needs some work, but I like it.
It DOES feel like a separate class.
Maybe bring it a little closer to fighter.Make brave and tough into 'Quick and the dead'
That way you can use the normal fighter saves, then have quick and the dead give them will and ref bonuses.Don't let the guns by pass armor and dex. Hitting touch AC is gonna be too easy for a full BAB class with gtr wpn focus: pistol even with deadly aim up.
Well, "The following is a preview of the firearm rules that appear in both The Inner Sea World Guide and Ultimate Combat and includes a slight revision to the Rapid Reload feat that takes into account the firearm rules. While the gunslinger utilizes these rules, the following are only included in the playtest so that you can play the gunslinger. These rules are final and not open for playtest."
1) Doesn't bypass Dex. 2) Not open for discussion.
No need to introduce revolvers. The class can full attack by 11 when using Grit at no cost to reload as a free action.
So, as a Full BAB class I have to wait until level 11 (which many campaigns NEVER reach) to full attack with my weapon of choice when those with bows and light crossbows can do it from level 1, and those with heavy crossbows can do it from level 2? And I'm restricted in what armor I must wear? Thanks, but no thanks.
If someone wants to wield two pistols- they should need to take the TWF line.Other than that initially looks good, needs testing.
Umm, no duh? Kinda stating the obvious here...
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Quick Questions,
With the picture coming to my mind of a "buccaneer" with multiple Single Shot pistols, is it possible if I had multiple single shot pistols could I use iterative attacks with them in conjunction with two weapon fighting for the off hand? if so what are the mechanics behind it and what would you need?
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I kind of can't believe that we're on page three, and nobody has even mentioned the most iconic gunslinger ever and how the class stacks up to him, he being Roland Deschain of Gilead. Seriously, if you haven't read these books (and I can't imagine who among us hasn't), stop what you're doing and read them. They're incredible. Masterpieces from a true master.
If you haven't read the books, Roland is a sort of mysticized cowboy. He is one with his guns, they are as much an extension of and a reflection of his personality as the clothes we wear, the music we listen to, etc.
This class (or sub-class - whatever - I'm not sure why so many people are getting worked up about that aspect of it - who cares?) and related feats do an excellent job of portraying Roland and his gunslinger ilk, in my humblest of opinions. In the King books, gunslingers would not be tested and sent out into the world until about level 10, but levels 1-10 do an excellent job of portraying the training that gunslingers might have gone through in the King books.
I'm not a numbers guy, I concentrate on the flavor of classes and play those that appeal to me. This one absolutely does appeal to me. Congrats, Jason and Stephen - unless the class plays horribly (which it doesn't seem like it will) you have hit a homerun as far as I'm concerned.
I kind of can't believe that we're on page three, and nobody has even mentioned the most iconic gunslinger ever
The Man with No Name?
and how the class stacks up to him, he being Roland Deschain of Gilead.
Oh, Dark Tower. Sure whatever.
Needs some work, but I like it.
It DOES feel like a separate class.
Maybe bring it a little closer to fighter.Make brave and tough into 'Quick and the dead'
That way you can use the normal fighter saves, then have quick and the dead give them will and ref bonuses.Don't let the guns by pass armor and dex. Hitting touch AC is gonna be too easy for a full BAB class with gtr wpn focus: pistol even with deadly aim up.
Well, "The following is a preview of the firearm rules that appear in both The Inner Sea World Guide and Ultimate Combat and includes a slight revision to the Rapid Reload feat that takes into account the firearm rules. While the gunslinger utilizes these rules, the following are only included in the playtest so that you can play the gunslinger. These rules are final and not open for playtest."
1) Doesn't bypass Dex. 2) Not open for discussion.
No need to introduce revolvers. The class can full attack by 11 when using Grit at no cost to reload as a free action.So, as a Full BAB class I have to wait until level 11 (which many campaigns NEVER reach) to full attack with my weapon of choice when those with bows and light crossbows can do it from level 1, and those with heavy crossbows can do it from level 2? And I'm restricted in what armor I must wear? Thanks, but no thanks.
If someone wants to wield two pistols- they should need to take the TWF line.Other than that initially looks good, needs testing.
Umm, no duh? Kinda stating the obvious here...
+1 to the waiting til 11th level. Not gonna do that. Give em revolvers.
I agree with you here..I kind of can't believe that we're on page three, and nobody has even mentioned the most iconic gunslinger everThe Man with No Name?
Was Stephen King's inspiration but when you have 1000's of pages versus a 70 page script you can really develop it a bit more. Also is a fantasy setting that other than high plains drifter being a ghost story dosent happen in spaghetti westerns, unless you are talking about the Deadlands RPG.
I have to agree that waiting till 11th level to full attack when PFS play stops at 12 seems to be umm, disincentiveizing (yea, I made up a word) most home brew games I have been invloved in peter out between 6-12 (what we call the "sweet spot": iconic monsters, all classes should have enough of thier schtick to be cool but not totally overshadow, etc.)
Roland Deschain : Man with no Name :: Hawkmoon : Eternal Champion
Roland Deschain : Man with no Name :: Hawkmoon : Eternal Champion
Davey Crocket
Vasily Zaytsev
Annie Oakley
Quick Questions,
With the picture coming to my mind of a "buccaneer" with multiple Single Shot pistols, is it possible if I had multiple single shot pistols could I use iterative attacks with them in conjunction with two weapon fighting for the off hand? if so what are the mechanics behind it and what would you need?
All you need is quick draw.
Shoot, quick draw, shoot. Keep going until you run out of weapons.
If you have two weapon fighting it's:
Shoot, quick draw, shoot, offhand, shoot.
The big question is can you use Rapid Shot in conjunction with this?
Shoot, quick draw, shoot, rapid shot quick draw, shoot.
I know that this worked with thrown weapons in 3.5, I'm just not sure if it works any more.
If it works then multiple pistols+quick draw+two weapon fighting+rapid shot equals at least two extra shot's per round.
Until you run out of loaded weapons of course.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Y'all forget the face of your father.
Damn, I love this class. My only beef is the art - which is approaching Rob Liefeld levels of pouches and belts (not to mention the large guns). I suppose it's in part to fantas-ify the gunslinger, but I would prefer a much leaner, less encumbered look, for the iconic.
But still, love the class. Now I need to figure out how legal this is for society play...
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If Clint Eastwood was in his mid-late 50's, he could play Roland Deschain in a Dark Tower movie, and everyone would instantly forget every other movie he ever made. The subject matter is just that much better.
Annie Oakley is surely a more iconic gunslinger than Roland - if you've never read the books or if you've got a really poor visual imagination.
The Two Weapon fighting tree needs a feat that applies only to firearm-wielders that completely eliminates the offhand penalty. I honestly think that's the only thing missing, here. And yeah, six-shooters - but that's so obvious that I'm sure we'll get those. After all, why have a "capacity" column if the answer's always going to be "1"?
As for the gunfighter, I personally feel the "grit" overcomplicates things by tacking on another system that uses points. Why not just give them normal class abilities instead of something that relies in the player trying to get "points" other than xp?
+1
Especially given that over in RPG Superstar-land they're dinging everyone who submits an item that requires "additional recordkeeping."
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All I can think when I look at the gunslinger is, "Man, 1st level is going to suck."1st level may suck . . . but you have a gun . . . ;)
Yeah, it's true. (And see elsewhere for why the amount of money involved in "having a gun" is a little worrisome. Anyone else remember those CharOp builds from 3.5 that involved the 1st level wizard selling their spellbook and buying a bunch of trained wardogs with the cash?)
But gunslingers are ludicrously feat-hungry. And despite being theoretically a fighter class, they simply don't get enough bonus feats to make up the difference.
Rapid Reload is a must. Quick Draw is a must if you're a pistoleer for certain, and probably for a musketeer as well. Secret Stash is a must. Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot are musts. You're not going to have the basic minimum requirements to function properly until level 5, and you've completely skipped Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, again despite being theoretically a fighter. And gods help you if you want to try to maximize your DPR with TWF (for the pistoleer) or Vital Strike (for the musketeer)...
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As for the gunfighter, I personally feel the "grit" overcomplicates things by tacking on another system that uses points. Why not just give them normal class abilities instead of something that relies in the player trying to get "points" other than xp?+1
Especially given that over in RPG Superstar-land they're dinging everyone who submits an item that requires "additional recordkeeping."
I agree.
The whole grit points seemed odd to me as well. I think we need fewer classes with this kind of points mechanic, not more. In the case of this class, it feels really "gimmicky". Normal class abilities is the better way to go in my opinion as well.
But still, love the class. Now I need to figure out how legal this is for society play...
It's legal. :)
Hyrum.
I would like to see the feats that are a "must", like rapid reload, point blank, and the like, be inherant to the class and on their list of abilities. Maybe give them a Feat List that they can pick from every so many levels which gives u the list and u pick one of those feats for that level.
I feel the need to point out that the word "feat" originates from anglo-saxon warriors in mythology literally doing impossible deeds.
Demanding they stay realistic strikes me as being really, really dumb.
Also this class is a mess for reasons I'll get into on another thread.
I like what I see in the class but i need to see it at the table to really get a good idea of how I feel about it. I think the class faces some very serious problems untill it can reload quickly (11th level is a long time to wait for that). People seem to like the idea of multiple weapons, which works from a flavor perspective, but not from a practical perspective. Firearms are prohibitively expensive as written. Heck You can have magic armor for the coast of a pistol. So the multiple pistol method of getting a full attack is pretty much a non-option for anything close to standard wealth and the written rules for fire arms. I think for this class to work you really need to get it to a position where it can use a feat to at least get pistols to reload as a free action without expense or it is going to be a wasted class. Otherwise it will be impossible for it to compare to an archer or even crossbowmen under the pathfinder ruleset.
i absolutely love the grit mechanic, i love everything about it. it is a point system which the player can somewhat control how fast he gets it back and i love that.
Overall, I like the gunslinger class, though I'd really, really, really prefer to see it as a base class rather than something that feels like a bald attempt to prevent multiclass fighter/gunfighters for some inexplicable reason.
There's only one thing I see that raises a red flag for me - the "no save" effects in there, like making something drop an item - okay, so you shoot at Orcus, get a crit and WOO he drops the Rod of Orcus! Yippee!!!
A similar complaint might be leveled at the effect of making someone flat-footed. So much for Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Given the power of using touch AC for virtually all attacks, trading that off for fewer attacks seems fair to me, so I am not in the "OMG! This class suxors because I can't shoot more than once a round!" camp.
The gunfighter might only be able to shoot once per round, but that shot is going to count.
Personally, I think six-shooters are nuts. This is not a wild west tech level here ... it's back in the days of muskets, dueling pistols, and those insanely huge cannons. Even a double-shot weapon is a bit over the top.
The gunfighter might only be able to shoot once per round, but that shot is going to count.
I think this is just DUMB!
You are a gunslinger. Meaning multiple shots in a round. Not a musketeer.
This class is completely worthless if you can't use guns to make all of your attacks with a full attack action. I'm not gonna play this class and wait til 11th level to get muliple attacks. They are a martial class, and they have good base attack bonuses. They should be able to use them.
Introduce revolvers. I will be making a 10th lvl gunslinger this week and I will b giving him revolvers and TWF and I will post the build and how well he worked on the forums Saturday morning.
As for the gunfighter, I personally feel the "grit" overcomplicates things by tacking on another system that uses points. Why not just give them normal class abilities instead of something that relies in the player trying to get "points" other than xp?+1
Especially given that over in RPG Superstar-land they're dinging everyone who submits an item that requires "additional recordkeeping."
Yes, yes, yes! I was actually thinking, 'this isn't a Superstar class..'
Actually half hoped one of our Top 32 did a Gunslinger archetype, ya know, for comparison's sake. ;)
Not in the competiton that I am aware of but here is one of our locals boys attempts
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/houseRules/archives/theGunslingerHomebrewClassBasedOnTheDarkTowerSeries& amp;page=1#24
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That would seem to complicate combat a bit, with figuring out how much armor bonus and how much you can penetrate.
The Touch attack ruling worries me. I prefer it to be able to ignore armor and shield only. As for natural armor, I prefer it to ignore up to a specified maximum, depending on the gun. For example, a pistol ignores up to +4 natural armor, while a musket would ignore up to +6 or +7? Something along those lines.
I agree guns should not go through natural armor. Armor and shield only I say. Like brilliant energy property, which in itself is already bloody powerful (a +4 weapon enchant if I remember correctly).
Just "touch AC" is too powerful, and makes no sense in a world where you have triceratops and golems.
YEP! against most people an iron golem has an AC of 28... but "Oh noes! here comes the nasty dex-based gunslinger, and my mighty iron golem AC of 28 drops to 8!!!"
That's what I call a game design flaw. I know what they're trying to do, and the class needs something good to make it on par with other classes, but it should stop at shield and armor, and even then just be restricted to the gunslinger class (otherwise, I promise you that EVERY CHARACTER will have a gun at his side, no matter the class)
I'm quite torn right now... I've been wishing that guns would get a power up for a long time, as they were useless as they were written... but to hit an iron golem on an AC of 8 is just wrong, and I suddenly find myself wondering that sometimes, you gotta be careful what you wish for...
At least the brilliant energy ability has that line at the end: "A brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead, constructs, and objects." I know the basic firearm rules are not open for playtest, but they are new nonetheless, and quite broken if one does not at the very least remove the "touch AC in the first increment" clause against undead, constructs and objects...
Just do what I do, when one of my players tries to make an over the top anime character, just kill them horribly. Also, seeing your list of TV shows, I might have to use this class to stat up Raylan Givensi feel your pain, brother. my group is no different. everyone is in love with anime and the like (over the topness). i prefer to stick to shows such as Spartacus, Justified, The Walking Dead, etc.*facepalm*tropy anime ninja.
...
anime sword guy.
Sorry, but everyone I play with watches copious amounts of anime, and it saturates my gaming experience. I really just want to see stuff that deviates from that as much as possible.
I know the modern understanding of ninjas and samurai is heavily inspired by how they are presented in anime, but its very old hat and tropy to me.
as long as we dont give ninjas the ability to summon an eidolon and samurais intelligent swords im good.
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First impressions:
1) This is a Western character with flintlocks and that just doesn't work out. The naming conventions, the gun tricks, everything about this class calls out to the Westerns, but because of the era limitations on firearms, he can't actually use those abilities as people imagine. This seems to be a problem for others and is a disconnect point that I'm not sure is easy to resolve. The cannot full ttack unless you take a specific trick, burn up a very limited resource (grit) or take another feat after that but only after 11th level also really grates on the image.
2) The class is Fighter archetype, which absolutely makes sense given it's a weapon specialist. But the Fighter chasis is hard to make out. Changing the save progression is a big change for an archetype. Especially when you go and give them a good Fort save with the Brave and Tough ability. I can see why you'd want a ranged weapon specialist to have good Reflex, but this didn't happen with the crossbowman or archer archetypes and I think it pulls the class too far from the source. Giving it back the good Fort and making Reflex the boosted save would accomplish this.
3) Gun training doesn't scale and is essentially pointless at levels 13 and 17 in the playtest as there aren't enough guns to use. This isn't a problem with the class but an issue with the playtest design. I understand why you'd want to keep the details of more guns in reserve but it does hamper thigns a little given how central they are to this character.
4) Grit seems to be complicated, very low in points, and doesn't scale with level. If the gunslinger feats added a grit point each as well, this would make the ability more useful (although possibly still too limited at high levels).
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Some first impressions from Pathfinder fans in Japan...
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(In the below, [ ] are my notes on translation. Pardon me if there're any typos or weird expressions. EN is not my native tongue.)
Just wanted to share impressions from this side of the planet with you ;-)
[Edit] BTW, none of the original comments include any ill will. If such expressions exist in the below against the original board and my will, all the blames should be on me. In such case, I hope this post be deleted.
tranlated by thiha
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>Tomo san wrote:
The Gunslinger seems strong but costs money, which sounds cool. But somehow a bit overpowered at high levels, IMO.
Nonetheless, it says that they can use martial weapons normally...does it mean they are light fighters in normal sense?
And the Ninja, cool. Seems they use ninjutsu [ninja arts] wth ki power.
And the Samurai is... can it be differentiated a bit more from the Cavalier?
I feel a bit suspicious about giving him a special mount. Then what's the Cavalier for?
Also, I don't hate his power, but I do dislike his using shields.
People there love Ronin, but is it because they love samurai, and yet don't see bushido [way of warriors]?
Anyhow, it's still in playtest status, and I wish if I could explain what and how samurai should be, to the "original house" [i.e. Paizo.com, US] there......but it's beyond my skills.
Jan. 26th, 2011 - 8:38
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Anonymous san wrote:
>Samurai
>explain to the "original house"
To represent some aspects of bushido, some features to make the Samurai being selfless-altruistic one would be nice, I guess.
Well, on the other hand, taking a look back on samurai depicted in domestic games [i.e. designed and published in Japan], samurai's image is more of a swordsman than a fighter, like having a deadly secret (technique of) sword.
I wish if I could see Samurai differentiated from other classes in that way.
But in either way, looking forward to seeing Ultimate Combat! (^^
Jan. 26th, 2011 - 11:03
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DDMFAN san wrote:
All of the illustrations for the Gunslinger, Ninja, and Samurai are COOL!
It would be nice if we could get such cool classes even in D&D4th, too ^^
Jan 26th, 2011 - 12:46
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Yuzuru san wrote:
Are they muzzle loading guns?
Free action reload ... ain't possible.
But cool nonethelss.
Sir, sir,
Would you mind run some PF campaign for us...
Why not?
Why not?
Jan. 26th, 2011 - 13:14
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Ryo san wrote:
Oho, the Gunslinger =)
And the Samurai, the Ninja, sounds nice!
but it somehow turns out to be similar to Arianrod [one of the most popular generic fantasy tabletop RPGs in Japan] ^^;
I agree to the opinion that a shield wielding samurai looks weird.
As was expected, Samurai shouldn't wield a shield, IMO.
At least, Master Mifune Toshiro's samurai did't wield one ;-)
Whatsoever, hardly wait to see the product.
Jan. 26, 2011 - 13:46
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Rem Rey san wrote:
>samurai
As Samurai is a substitute class for the Cavalier, more or less, no wonder that their abilities not so differ from each other.
Thinking of constables, hunters, Häyhä, etc., it's a pity that the Gunslinger is not a substitute class for the Ranger but the Fighter. Any substitutes for the Ranger's combat styles would handle the concepts better than a bonus feat per 4 levels.....
Jan. 26th, 2011 - 18:43
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Tomo san wrote:
>As Samurai is a substitute class for the Cavalier...
I overlooked it. Now it's no wonder to be similar. My lame.
... well, no Knowledge for class skills?
I would call for Knowledge (nobility) and Knowledge (architecture) at least.
I wonder if samurai is thought to be a barbarian in the US...
Give us no shields. Give us Knowledge for his class skills.
Any full 20-levels-scale classes designed anew would inevitably lap over existing classes' positions, so it seems they would basically be treated as substitute classes, unless they are innovative ones. It's a bit surprise, though, that even the Gunslinger is a substitute class.
btw, a "substitute class" means that it can't be multiclassed with the original one, right?
January 27th, 2011 - 8:30
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Ryo san wrote:
I've downloaded and flipped through. If it's M size, a pistol's damage is 1d8, and a musket's 1d12 ... for crits, it's x4 and Dex bonus would be added to it.
Wow, so powerful.
Jan. 28th, 2011 - 16:00
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Ishikawa san wrote:
Whoa! Loads of comments =)
>Tomo san
Sure, a shield for samurai just ain't feel right...do people there think ashigaru[infantry sumrai]'s barrier screens to be tower shields?
> Anonymous san
Hmm, some americans might not see some "selfless altruism" and the like, maybe. Some still saying that the Alamo, determined and annihilated, still represents the American spirit, bluh, bluh ...
>DDMFAN san
I don't care, as I don't play 4... (omitted
>Yuzuru san
FYR, without any feat, a pistol can be reloaded wiht a standard action.
Hmm.
If I were designing it, I would make it a bit more powerful and instead make the reloading time longer.
>Would you mind run some PF campaign for us...
Hey, I can't be a player then. lol
>Ryo san
>Arianrod-esque.
Exactly.
Though not that flourishing. =)
>Rem Ray san
The Gunslinger's image is a musketeer, probably. So, she must fire a shot and then unsheathe her sword and charge. That's it, her job, I guess =)
>Tomo san
Aha, exactly. Some Knowledge skills would fit nicely.
Should I post it to the Paizo's forum, including the matter with shields?
>Ryo san
>Re: Damage
Ouch. Forgot.
Well, still it's not that powerful yet, somewhat.
If it had some "ignore armor bonuses" like back in AD&D, it would be awesome, but it's still 1d12 + Dex mod. while two-handed....it depends on how rapidly they can shoot in practice. Oh, and if there's any way to add "keen," that would be great. They are easy to break down. A musket would break on roll 1-2, Hot!, lol.
Jan. 29th, 2011 - 1:33