Alter self into same race

[Ravingdork]

Can you use alter self to appear as another non-specific member of your race?

For example, can a half-elf alter self into a half-elf in order to benefit from the +2 strength bonus of a greater hat of disguise?

[Cheapy]

Yep. There's nothing to indicate that A) you can't alter yourself to be a different member of the same race and B) you don't get the bonus for changing to a creature of your same size.

[Shar Tahl]

It's silly that the spell does that, but yes. It does not specify size differences before the change. A Halfling could also do it as a dex buff

[Ravingdork]

So if I wanted to absolutely powergame a high strength character, I could be an orc barbarian/alchemist with rage, mutagen, and everything dumped into strength with a greater hat of disguise on top of it all? Talk about salt in the wound!

18 base
08 grand mutagen
06 belt
05 level increases
05 manual/wish
04 orc
04 rage
02 alter self

52 TOTAL

I'm sure people can get it higher than that with some tweaking (I remember getting it up to 60 one time, though I don't recall how).

[zagnabbit]

I'm not sure I'd allow the racial bonus twice. That's stacking.

I'd totally allow a +2 on a different stat.

[Cheapy]

... Oh yeah...

[Archaeik]

That's definitely good.
Based on the vivi/bm thread, I worked out 56 if you grab Greater Eldritch Heritage(Orc).

Being an Orc would bump that up by 2. My list was

18 base
02 racial
06 alch(greater)
04 morale(rage)
06 enhance(belt)
06 inherent(IEH-orc)
04 HD (leaves 1 for w/e)
04 dragon disc
06 size(GEH-orc)
--
56

not much room for improvement
Amplified Rage(which you could probably fit) would hit 60 I guess, but you'd need a buddy.

Is there a way to get Giant Form 1 or 2? that would eliminate the need for EH-orc

[zagnabbit]

It could be argued that the racial bonuses don't transfer at all, since it's a +2 and you've already used it. I'd overrule that I think.

Might need to ponder that some more.

Edit: 56 is insane.

[Archaeik]

Quote:

I'm not sure I'd allow the racial bonus twice. That's stacking.

Are you talking about alter self? because it grants a size bonus.

[zagnabbit]

Bit your size isn't changing?
Ravingdork asked about using the hat to morph into another member of his current race.

[Ravingdork]

Also, racial bonuses stack with other racial bonuses.

[Archaeik]

Correct. Polymorph spells ONLY give you what they say in their description.

Alter self can change your size, but you never gain any other benefits/penalties than what is listed.

So, for his example...
Half Elf
18 base
02 racial
02 SIZE

it all stacks.

If it were a halfling stack dex, that would work too.

Edit: did not know that about racial bonuses

[zagnabbit]

Oh really, I didn't realize that got an exemption.
Weird though.

[Shar Tahl]

It seems they made it so it more closely matches the beast shape line, where there are no strength penalties for going smaller or dex penalties for going higher, at least for medium and small creatures to start.

[TClifford]

They way I see it, in the example your STR is already 50...what is a couple more due to a loophole in a magic item. Not much difference between +20 to hit/dam to +21 to hit/dam.

[Malfus]

Could one use alter-self to look like yourself? Or would you have to wear a hat of disguise to look like yourself after you polymorphed (sub-school) yourself into another of your race? This is pertinent as I wish to have a permanent condition that changes my character's appearance, and wish to use a greater hat of disguise to "resume" his normal form.

[cwslyclgh]

Malfus wrote:

Could one use alter-self to look like yourself?

Not by the RAW, assuming that your character is a 'specific individual'.

PRD wrote:

Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type.

However as you can fine tune the details to an extent I would say you could end up looking very similar to yourself. (In fact in my game I would probably just allow it).

[Malfus]

Good enough for me