Applying the Young template to a Dog; did I do this right?


Rules Questions


I'm excited!

I'm preparing to play a Witch in my first Pathfinder campaign and I'd like to get a second opinion on the math I performed while converting the Dog in Bestiary 1 to a Fox familiar (as per the instructions given in the Advanced Player's Guide pg. 70).

The original Dog (Bestiary 1 pg. 87):
DOG CR 1/3 ANIMAL/URBAN/TEMPERATE
XP 135
N Small animal
Init +1; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +8
DEFENSE
AC 13, touch 12, flat-footed 12 (+1 Dex, +1 natural, +1 size)
hp 6 (1d8+2)
Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +1
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee bite +2 (1d4+1)
STATISTICS
Str 13, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +0; CMB +0; CMD 11 (15 vs. trip)
Feats Skill Focus (Perception)
Skills Acrobatics +1 (+9 jumping), Perception +8, Survival +1
(+5 scent tracking); Racial Modifiers +4 Acrobatics when
jumping, +4 Survival when tracking by scent
ECOLOGY
Environment any
Organization solitary, pair, or pack (3–12)
Treasure none

The applied template (Bestiary 1 pg. 295):
Young Creature (CR –1)
Creatures with the young template are immature specimens of the base creature. You can also use this simple template to easily create a smaller variant of a monster. This template cannot be applied to creatures that increase in power through aging or feeding (such as dragons or barghests) or creatures that are Fine-sized.
Quick Rules: +2 to all Dex-based rolls, –2 to all other rolls, –2 hp/HD.
Rebuild Rules: Size decrease by one category; AC reduce natural armor by –2 (minimum +0); Attacks decrease damage dice by 1 step; Ability Scores –4 Strength, –4 Con, +4 size bonus to Dex.

The final product:
FOX FAMILIAR
N Tiny animal
Init +3; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +8
DEFENSE
AC 15, touch 15, flat-footed 12 (+3 Dex, +0 natural, +2 size)
hp 6 (1d8+0)
Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +1
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee bite +2 (1d4+1)
STATISTICS
Str 9, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +0; CMB +0; CMD 11 (15 vs. trip)
Feats Skill Focus (Perception)
Skills Acrobatics +1 (+9 jumping), Perception +8, Survival +1
(+5 scent tracking); Racial Modifiers +4 Acrobatics when
jumping, +4 Survival when tracking by scent

Yes? No? Where do I reference the proper reduction of damage dice?

Many thanks in advance!


I've bolded the changes that was missing.
There is changes to melee attack and damage (and a link below), average HP (although if witches familiars are like wizards it might not matter), and reflex/fort saves, CMB/CMD, and the acrobatics skill.

The final product:
FOX FAMILIAR
N Tiny animal
Init +3; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +8
DEFENSE
AC 15, touch 15, flat-footed 12 (+3 Dex, +0 natural, +2 size)
hp 4 (1d8+0)
Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +1
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee bite +1 (1d3-1)
STATISTICS
Str 9, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +0; CMB -3; CMD 10 (14 vs. trip)
Feats Skill Focus (Perception)
Skills Acrobatics +3 (+11 jumping), Perception +8, Survival +1
(+5 scent tracking); Racial Modifiers +4 Acrobatics when
jumping, +4 Survival when tracking by scent

You can find the chart of size and damage here: link

Feel free to ask if anything needs clarification.

Edit: highlighted acrobatics.

Dark Archive

dpnorton82 wrote:

The final product:

FOX FAMILIAR
N Tiny animal
Init +3; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +8
DEFENSE
AC 15, touch 15, flat-footed 12 (+3 Dex, +0 natural, +2 size)
hp 6 (1d8+0)
Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +1
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee bite +2 (1d4+1)
STATISTICS
Str 9, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +0; CMB +0; CMD 11 (15 vs. trip)
Feats Skill Focus (Perception)
Skills Acrobatics +1 (+9 jumping), Perception +8, Survival +1
(+5 scent tracking); Racial Modifiers +4 Acrobatics when
jumping, +4 Survival when tracking by scent

Yes? No? Where do I reference the proper reduction of damage dice?

Because it's Constitution and Dexterity scores have changed, it's Fort save drops to +2 and its Ref save increases to +5.

Hit Points for a d8 HD would be 4.5 (round down to 4), and he's no longer got a Con bonus, so just 4 hit points. (Being a familiar, that hardly matters, as he'll have half of your hit points instead, if that's better, making Toughness, like Improved Initiative, one of those feats that helps you *and* him, if you take it.)

PFRPG (the core book) p 145 has a weapon damage chart that modifies die types for larger or smaller weapons, and that's what I use for creature damage types when they change sizes as well. 1d4 at size Small would turn to 1d3 at size Tiny. Note that the Str bonus becomes a Str penalty, so the bite is for 1d3-1.

Melee bite attack roll drops to +1 (+2 size bonus, -1 Str penalty).

CMB should be -3 (-2 for size, -1 for Str penalty) and CMD should be 10 (-2 for size, -1 for Str, +3 for Dex bonus), although still +4 vs. trip attacks.

While its not part of the template, it's common for a tiny creatuure to have Weapon Finesse as well, so you might want to see if your GM will allow you to swap out the Skill Focus (perception) for Weapon Finesse, which will boost your Atk number to +5. (Then again, your Familiar probably should be nowhere near combat, so perhaps it's easier to avoid the temptation and keep him useless in that role!)

Edit: I checked Acrobatics twice, and I have no idea what's up with that wall of text skill description. I didn't see any size modifiers, just one for a critter with a 40 ft base move, which it already had as a dog, so nothing should change there? I dunno.

Edit 2: Oh. Dex changed. Acrobatics thus changes. My bad. DOH!


HaraldKlak wrote:

I've bolded the changes that was missing.

There is changes to melee attack and damage (and a link below), average HP (although if witches familiars are like wizards it might not matter), and reflex/fort saves, CMB/CMD, and the acrobatics skill.

The final product:
FOX FAMILIAR
N Tiny animal
Init +3; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +8
DEFENSE
AC 15, touch 15, flat-footed 12 (+3 Dex, +0 natural, +2 size)
hp 4 (1d8+0)
Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +1
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee bite +1 (1d3-1)
STATISTICS
Str 9, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +0; CMB -3; CMD 10 (14 vs. trip)
Feats Skill Focus (Perception)
Skills Acrobatics +3 (+11 jumping), Perception +8, Survival +1
(+5 scent tracking); Racial Modifiers +4 Acrobatics when
jumping, +4 Survival when tracking by scent

You can find the chart of size and damage here: link

Feel free to ask if anything needs clarification.

Edit: highlighted acrobatics.

Quick reply! Thanks. :)

I guess I'm just missing where to reference the baseline for the stats so I could see how the template would impose itself upon CMB, CMD and the skills...


Set wrote:
dpnorton82 wrote:

The final product:

FOX FAMILIAR
N Tiny animal
Init +3; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +8
DEFENSE
AC 15, touch 15, flat-footed 12 (+3 Dex, +0 natural, +2 size)
hp 6 (1d8+0)
Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +1
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee bite +2 (1d4+1)
STATISTICS
Str 9, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +0; CMB +0; CMD 11 (15 vs. trip)
Feats Skill Focus (Perception)
Skills Acrobatics +1 (+9 jumping), Perception +8, Survival +1
(+5 scent tracking); Racial Modifiers +4 Acrobatics when
jumping, +4 Survival when tracking by scent

Yes? No? Where do I reference the proper reduction of damage dice?

Because it's Constitution and Dexterity scores have changed, it's Fort save drops to +2 and its Ref save increases to +5.

Hit Points for a d8 HD would be 4.5 (round down to 4), and he's no longer got a Con bonus, so just 4 hit points. (Being a familiar, that hardly matters, as he'll have half of your hit points instead, if that's better, making Toughness, like Improved Initiative, one of those feats that helps you *and* him, if you take it.)

My own typo. I caught the modifier change and reduction in hp, I just failed to update the hp part. :-P

Quote:
PFRPG (the core book) p 145 has a weapon damage chart that modifies die types for larger or smaller weapons, and that's what I use for creature damage types when they change sizes as well. 1d4 at size Small would turn to 1d3 at size Tiny. Note that the Str bonus becomes a Str penalty, so the bite is for 1d3-1.

I see it now.

Quote:

Melee bite attack roll drops to +1 (+2 size bonus, -1 Str penalty).

CMB should be -3 (-2 for size, -1 for Str penalty) and CMD should be 10 (-2 for size, -1 for Str, +3 for Dex bonus), although still +4 vs. trip attacks.

This is where I get lost...

Contributor

It would be really nice if this could be done up as an official PDF for the free download section with the artwork clipped from any of the many pictures of the iconic witch with her fox. If I'm running a witch NPC or PC, just being able to pull out the quick reference sheet for the familiar would be highly useful.

Actually, it would be useful for all the familiars.


Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:

It would be really nice if this could be done up as an official PDF for the free download section with the artwork clipped from any of the many pictures of the iconic witch with her fox. If I'm running a witch NPC or PC, just being able to pull out the quick reference sheet for the familiar would be highly useful.

Actually, it would be useful for all the familiars.

I wholeheartedly agree!


Set wrote:


While its not part of the template, it's common for a tiny creatuure to have Weapon Finesse as well, so you might want to see if your GM will allow you to swap out the Skill Focus (perception) for Weapon Finesse, which will boost your Atk number to +5.

Familiars get a virtual version of Weapon Finesse for free:

"Attacks: Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the familiar's Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar's melee attack bonus with natural weapons."

Shadow Lodge

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:

It would be really nice if this could be done up as an official PDF for the free download section with the artwork clipped from any of the many pictures of the iconic witch with her fox. If I'm running a witch NPC or PC, just being able to pull out the quick reference sheet for the familiar would be highly useful.

Actually, it would be useful for all the familiars.

I would imagine that when we get a "Meet the Iconic" for Feyia, they'll include information for her familiar as well.

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