If you have a Portable Alchemy Lab are you considered able to create extracts, mutagens and bombs? Or do you need the Alchemist's Kit?
As near as I can tell, the Alchemist's Kit is all that's necessary.
The Lab (and its portable variation) is just for a bonus to Skill Checks, it doesn't actually provide you with any materials necessary to create items (you still pay raw material costs for things you make with the Lab). By extension, it shouldn't provide you with materials necessary to perform acts not covered by the skill (such as your Alchemist class abilities).
You would not consider extracts, mutagens and bombs alchemical items?
Alchemist's Lab:
This lab is used for making alchemical items... Without this lab, a character with the Craft (alchemy) skill is assumed to have enough tools to use the skill....
No they are not alchemical items specifically, as extracts, mutagens, and bombs are all called out as distinct from mundane alchemical items in the Alchemy class feature:
Alchemy (Su): Alchemists are not only masters of creating mundane alchemical substances…but also of fashioning magical potion-like extracts in which they can store spell effects.
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An alchemist can create three special types of magical items—extracts, bombs, and mutagens.
Now, for these, the extracts and bombs specifically mention component requirements:
Creating extracts consumes raw materials, but the cost of these materials is insignificant—comparable to the valueless material components of most spells. If a spell normally has a costly material component, that component is expended during the consumption of that particular extract. Extracts cannot be made from spells that have focus requirements (alchemist extracts that duplicate divine spells never have a divine focus requirement).
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In order to create a bomb, the alchemist must use a small vial containing an ounce of liquid catalyst—the alchemist can create this liquid catalyst from small amounts of chemicals from an alchemy lab, and these supplies can be readily refilled in the same manner as a spellcaster's component pouch.
In the bomb description, it specifically states you can use a lab, and replenish supplies "in the same manner as a spellcaster's component pouch" (which ironically is not a defined process).
Alchemist's Kit: An alchemist with an alchemist's kit is assumed to have all the material components needed for his extracts, mutagens, and bombs, except for those components that have a specific cost. An alchemist's kit provides no bonuses on Craft (alchemy) checks.
Alchemist's Lab, Portable: This compact version of a full-sized alchemist's lab provides a +1 circumstance bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks.
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Alchemist's Lab: This lab is used for making alchemical items, and provides a +2 circumstance bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks. It has no bearing on the costs related to the Craft (alchemy) skill. Without this lab, a character with the Craft (alchemy) skill is assumed to have enough tools to use the skill but not enough to get the +2 bonus that the lab provides.
So, my conclusion from the text is that you need the Alchemist's Kit to create extracts and mutagens, while either a lab or kit can be used for bombs. I'd actually extend this to say an alchemist with access to a lab and no kit can also create extracts and mutagens, but there will be DMs, I'm sure, that challenge this per the above rules.
You would not consider extracts, mutagens and bombs alchemical items?
Alchemist's Lab:
This lab is used for making alchemical items... Without this lab, a character with the Craft (alchemy) skill is assumed to have enough tools to use the skill....
Regardless of whether they are alchemical items or not, a Lab gives you the tools needed to perform the skill, but not the raw materials. That would be what the Kit is for, assuming you don't just use skills to gather what you need (if the DM makes it available).
If you can't gather the supplies from around you using Knowledge (nature) and Knowledge (arcana), then refining them into appropriate distillates using Craft(alchemy), the Kit has all of the materials you should need for them.
And for the record, I agree with Erian_7... ordinary Alchemical items, such as Alchemist's Fire or Bloodblock, don't require any magic to craft or function. Extracts, Mutagens, and Bombs depend on magic to function or at least activate.
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Personally see no true difference in spending the 20gp for a fluff item and spending more and adding the fluff to the more expensive item.
The magic for the Extracts, Mutagens and Bombs comes from the Alchemist himself whether he uses kits or labs or his 3 day old socks.
I see them as alchemical items. Infused with magic, yes, but still alchemical items.
Personally see no true difference in spending the 20gp for a fluff item and spending more and adding the fluff to the more expensive item.
The magic for the Extracts, Mutagens and Bombs comes from the Alchemist himself whether he uses kits or labs or his 3 day old socks.
I see them as alchemical items. Infused with magic, yes, but still alchemical items.
All I was doing was trying to give you the rules answer. The difference essentially comes down to the fact that all the Portable Alchemist's Lab does is give you a bonus to Craft: Alchemy skill checks, nothing else. It's not needed in the creation of any of your Bombs, Extracts, or Mutagens, nor does it aid them in any way. You do, however, need an Alchemist's Kit to have the supplies, like a spellcaster who doesn't have Eschew Materials.
The reason they don't behave like any other alchemical item is threefold: they use magic, which you've stated you don't care about. Second, every alchemical item is made by using the Craft: Alchemy skill. They all have a DC to create and a raw material cost. Anyone with ranks in Craft: Alchemy can try to create them. Extracts, Mutagens and Bombs can only be made by an Alchemist, regardless of whether or not he has any ranks in Craft: Alchemy, and only an Infused Mutagen has any kind of cost associated with it. Wizards, rogues, fighters and clerics can have all of the Craft: Alchemy ranks they want and never be able to make those items, with or without a lab.
Third, their level 18 ability lets them create any alchemical item as a full-round action. If extracts, mutagens and bombs count you are turning the Alchemist into a spontaneous in-combat Extract maker, and have hundreds of mutagens a day, customized for whatever situation you find yourself in. Bombs would actually be worse off with this ability, since they can already be made as a Standard Action, faster with Rapid Bombs.
As a DM, the reason for not tacking on the functions of an Alchemist's Kit to a Lab is the same as not tacking on the functions of arrows to a bow. Just because a Ranger buys a Masterwork Bow doesn't mean I'm going to let him fire all he wants... he's gotta carry a quiver and arrows.
Fluff-wise, I'd rather be picturing the alchemist just carrying around the attache-sized Alchemist's Kit around, rather than the 20lb desk-full of glassware and beakers that they somehow manage to set up, use and tear down in 1 minute to brew their extract. Instead, they root around in the attache Kit for conveniently labeled vials and tins, shake a bit of this and that into a perfume-bottle sized vial, stir and voila. You obviously have a different image in your mind, but that's just fine too. I know I balked at having to pay 20 GP instead of the spellcaster's 5 GP at 1st level, and felt cheated out of being able to have any sort of Lab with my starting gold. But I got over it and bought one later.
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The reason they don't behave like any other alchemical item is threefold: they use magic, which you've stated you don't care about.
Did I say that? Please. Do not put words into my mouth. The magic comes from the Alchemist, not the components.
Second, every alchemical item is made by using the Craft: Alchemy skill. They all have a DC to create and a raw material cost. Anyone with ranks in Craft: Alchemy can try to create them. Extracts, Mutagens and Bombs can only be made by an Alchemist, regardless of whether or not he has any ranks in Craft: Alchemy, and only an Infused Mutagen has any kind of cost associated with it. Wizards, rogues, fighters and clerics can have all of the Craft: Alchemy ranks they want and never be able to make those items, with or without a lab.
And none know how to infuse the items into a magical/alchemical mixture.
Third, their level 18 ability lets them create any alchemical item as a full-round action. If extracts, mutagens and bombs count you are turning the Alchemist into a spontaneous in-combat Extract maker, and have hundreds of mutagens a day, customized for whatever situation you find yourself in. Bombs would actually be worse off with this ability, since they can already be made as a Standard Action, faster with Rapid Bombs.
Your best point yet, but 18th level? Where other "caster" classes are getting their Wishes and Miracle spells? The thought of the Alchemist doing those things is not so out of concept.
As a DM, the reason for not tacking on the functions of an Alchemist's Kit to a Lab is the same as not tacking on the functions of arrows to a bow. Just because a Ranger buys a Masterwork Bow doesn't mean I'm going to let him fire all he wants... he's gotta carry a quiver and arrows.
But I am not just talking about "tacking it on". I am talking about spending more on an item and adding the Fluff effect of the other attached. You need something with you components, why not just a portable lab instead of Both Kit and Lab, if you were to want to have the ability to make potions while out adventuring/travelling/etc...
Look in Equipment. Find Quiver. Not there. Why? Cause it is a pure fluff item. Very similar to Alchemist Kit. Arrows just come in groups of 20, assumed to be carried in something.
Fluff-wise, I'd rather be picturing the alchemist just carrying around the attache-sized Alchemist's Kit around, rather than the 20lb desk-full of glassware and beakers that they somehow manage to set up, use and tear down in 1 minute to brew their extract. Instead, they root around in the attache Kit for conveniently labeled vials and tins, shake a bit of this and that into a perfume-bottle sized vial, stir and voila. You obviously have a different image in your mind, but that's just fine too. I know I balked at having to pay 20 GP instead of the spellcaster's 5 GP at 1st level, and felt cheated out of being able to have any sort of Lab with my starting gold. But I got over it and bought one later.
Ooookayy?
No actually I have a similar image, just in mine the WHOLE kit is 20#, yet I can separate it to store it on my body as I need to. Storing, deep in backpack and haversack the items only needed while Potion Brewing, Extract creating and Mutagen mixing, while the components and vials I need to create Bombs (really the only one that you make on the fly in combat) are in pockets and pouches on my outer body.
After presenting my case my DM still tells me to buy both I will, no issues. I have no issue with spending the cash, I am not being cheap, I just see one item being able to cover it all.
OilHorse, did you present my thoughts to your DM? The alchemist rules clearly allow an alchemist's lab as the source for creating bombs. It's not a huge leap to go from there to allowing it for extracts and mutagens. However, I don't advise arguing that these are just other types of alchemical items since the rules obviously place these three things as magical items.
I have an alchemist for my PFS games--a gnome--and he has both the portable lab and his alchemist kit. He carries the kit himself and straps the lab to his dog.
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We are in the process of creating PCs. We start the campaign (Shackled City) this weekend.
I am not even starting as an Alchemist, but have my PC interested in the study of Alchemy, though his Daytime job is as a Bodyguard/City Guide. I took the Rich Parents trait (refluffed it so the money is from my work and not parents) and am buying gear I am gonna need over the long haul (Lab, Portable Lab...kits of various types etc...)
I presented it to the community to gauge reactions over this. I will talk to him about this @ 1st session and live by his decision either way.
For actual in-game use, I've found that having both handy is very nice for both mechanical and RP reasons. I break out the portable lab each morning (RP for creating his mutagen, extracts, and bomb vials) but carry the alchemist's kit to "finish things off" (I always leave an extract slot open so I can have just the right utility extract when needed). Being a gnome, carrying the whole portable lab isn't a good option, but I also reason that it has to be actually set up whereas creating an extract from the kit only takes the 1 minute noted for mixing an extract. Gaining the +1 on Craft checks with the lab is nice at this point, sin ce I'm still low level.
Sorry for the thread resurrection, but starting a whole new thread for one question that pertains to this topic seemed wasteful.
Does the new "Alchemy crafting kit" in the Ultimate Equipment replace the "Alchemy kit" from the APG, and if so, why does it weigh 50 FREAKING POUNDS?!?
Personally see no true difference in spending the 20gp for a fluff item and spending more and adding the fluff to the more expensive item.
The magic for the Extracts, Mutagens and Bombs comes from the Alchemist himself whether he uses kits or labs or his 3 day old socks.
I see them as alchemical items. Infused with magic, yes, but still alchemical items.
Alchemist bombs, extracts, and mutagens aren't items at all for the purposes of game mechanics. They're just class features. Treating them as items would allow for too many ways to screw an alchemist over.
Sorry for the thread resurrection, but starting a whole new thread for one question that pertains to this topic seemed wasteful.
Does the new "Alchemy crafting kit" in the Ultimate Equipment replace the "Alchemy kit" from the APG, and if so, why does it weigh 50 FREAKING POUNDS?!?
It does and it has been stated that that is wrong and you should use the weight from the APG.