I would like to hear the OP's reason of why not.
In a separate, but probably related note: Magic items are not mysterious and wonderful to me as a player. A new item in a new book may be, but like anything else that is new it eventually gets old, and telling me I can't have it won't make me suddenly go back to thinking it is wonderful.
Sadly, my players are more the "I'm ready for the next scene, Mr. Director" types...
I remember having a group of players and working very, very hard to come up with hooks for each character to follow up on. Two of the players dove right in, bit the hooks, and made their own parts of the story.
The third guy started telling the other people in the group that he didn't really like the campaign as much as he could because I wasn't telling him what his character should be doing outside of combat.
Ironically, when it was his turn to GM, we all desperately clung to every decision we got to make and tried to find some way to have some kind of free will in between his declarations of "you decide going to this town will be a good idea."
On the original topic:
I totally understand if people are trying to construct a low magic feel to their campaigns, or if they want a lot of magic but want to control how it enters the game in a stricter fashion, and as long as they realize that they will have to do a fair amount of work as GMs to make sure they aren't really screwing their characters, that works out fine.
However, to defend the "default" assumptions of the game, i.e. that you can find and buy magic items, I'll throw in a few comments.
There are myths and legends about heroes going to a dwarf or even to a masterfully skilled, world renowned blacksmith or artisan to craft magic items for them. In the pulp stories that inspired D&D originally, you can find references to strange magic shops and bazaars, for example, in the Fafhard and Grey Mouser stories.
I get the feeling that people go a bit "in for a penny, in for a pound" when it comes to buying magic items. While I don't like the idea of PCs just happening to find what they need all of the time, there is still a bit of a disconnect between that scenario and assuming that someone that has magic for sale will be selling everything in the shop that is appropriate to the wealth level of the settlement.
By now its become a pretty solid trope that dwarves are master craftsmen, and in Pathfinder they can take a few feats to justify how they can make magic weapons and armor, for example. And any setting that has a god of wealth of any stripe is probably not going to be against their members making magic items for money to support the faith in the manner to which it has become accustomed.
Also, with the addition of the Bestiary 2, you now have alien magic item merchants and extra-planar magic item merchants as "monsters" that are likely to be able to find what an adventurer needs.
Even in smaller cities, its not too hard to picture that there isn't one magic shop, but an alchemist on one corner that has X, a skilled dwarf with Y available, some temples that sell divination or healing themed magic, and hedge wizard that's primarily concerned with enhancing objects to make a living.
If its really a sticking point from a roleplaying perspective, you can still easily make magic items available but make the PCs wait while its "custom" built. It even builds some downtime into the game to let the PCs do things they would want to do with their downtime.
As to the "super legendary" weapons in stories, if you notice, in Pathfinder, the cap of what is available for sale even in a huge metropolis is much lower than 3.5. The legendary "kingsword" will still likely be the work of their own hand, or something they find, but by limiting only the really top end, expensive magic items, the game still functions with the mid range and lower upper tier magic items obtainable so that PCs have the "expected" magic items.
I can understand not liking all encompassing magic shops, but I do think you can get around that idea in setting with just a few added details to flesh things out. On the other hand, I can respect lower magic, more restricted access to items, I'll just say, please make sure your players know that is a feature of the setting they are playing in before they get too far into the campaign, because its does change how someone might develop and envision their character.
I suppose the answer to whether a GM "should" is based on the power level of the game. I always run ridiculously high powered games (my players and I enjoy it), so the oft-mentioned "MageMart" usually exists for me in towns an economy size or two less than should actually support it. If not, a quick teleport or two solves the problem.
I have found that at the end of the day, most players don't care whether or not the local economy should support the kind of transactions going on, as long as they know why the mage who creates the items is not adventuring herself. If your caster level is sufficient to crank out the bigger wondrous items or even staves, you're probably smart enough to prevent theft. Worst case scenario, my PC's cool their heels while the wizard custom crafts something they want.
To me, there's nothing worse in table-top RPG's than feeling underpowered in the line of duty, especially when stupidly-powerful villains are running amok, doing villainous things in all corners of the globe.
I'm using the 1e PHB as a mousepad. Let me check...
Permanency is an automatic -1 con in 1e.
Which is pretty meaningless when a Wish can raise it right back. Per pg. 11 on the 1st Ed AD&D DMG, as long as the score is under 16, it's one Wish per point of increase.
Permanent magic items (unless clerical/druidic or racial items, as laid out on pg. 116-118) could only be made by 16th+ level magic users with 16+ Int (to be able to cast Permanency) or 14th+ level illusionists (using Major Creation and Alter Reality) in 1st Ed AD&D, anyway. Given the limitations, most "minor" permanent items would probably be created by churches or illusionists. The only magic users willing to "mass produce" permanent magic items would be 18th+ level arch-magi with 18+ Int who can cast Wish to recover the lost point of Con (of course, an arch-mage should have raised all of his ability scores other than Int to 16 with Wishes, if we're actually running them "correctly" in 1st Ed).
Which is pretty meaningless when a Wish can raise it right back. Per pg. 11 on the 1st Ed AD&D DMG, as long as the score is under 16, it's one Wish per point of increase.
Meaningless? When that wish is going to age you 3 years (1e DMG page 13)? I wouldn't consider that meaningless.
One thing to consider about this whole issue is the time, effort and investment to make magic items. Enchanting objects is most efficiently done in 8 hour chunks, so someone who is making an object really isn't doing anything else (who likes working more than 8 hours a day?). Then add in the fairly frequent need for two kinds of spellcasters (lots of objects require both divine and arcane spells in their construction), and you need to co-ordinate a couple people to make some items. Then there's the money - lots of money. Obviously, the potential to double your money is tempting, but will the item sell immediately? Probably not. If the enchanter in question is hurting for cash already, he's hurting even worse if it doesn't sell right away. If he's flush with cash, he can take the risk, but he's already flush with cash.
I think the idea of magic-mart falls apart on close examination. There should be shops for material components and enchanting supplies in any community with a decent spellcaster presence, and some high-demand consumables will always be around (potions, scrolls). Other than that, I'd assume that if someone wants an item, they don't go shopping for that item, they commission someone to make it for them.
This is a winning scenario for the enchanters. You have a guaranteed buyer come along. You use his money to make the item. Your time isn't wasted, your money isn't tied up. However, if you assume that eventually those enchanters will be fairly rich (a few items a year to cover expenses, as long as they're not personally upgrading gear), getting them to do stuff for you will be part payment, part adventure hook (do me X favor and I'll make Y item). This won't always happen (heck, sometimes they'll just refuse, as their time is otherwise occupied), but more story hooks for GM = good thing. It also emphasizes the need for good contacts among spellcasters, as wizards who LIKE you are more likely to drop everything to spend 30 days making that expensive item for you.
So what about those extra magic items the players have kicking around? Does no-one buy them? Well, yes, yes they do. There are always a few people around looking for bargains. Paying full price is for people who NEED these items; everyone else who might be interested can leave a note with the local wizards/church/magic supply shop that if item X comes around, he might be interested if it's reasonably priced. For example, a lesser noble has a newborn son, who will inherit his position. He starts saving for his son's needs - after all, some magic armor and a magic sword will help his offspring survive, but he's got 18-odd years to acquire this stuff.
Of course, eventually adventurers should exhaust their market if they're in one area long enough. There are only so many +1 sword bargain hunters out there. Another option is to assume the magic item cannibalization is possible - after all, making an item requires X gold piece VALUE of ingredients, but doesn't tell you what you need as an ingredient. "Other magic items" may well be a viable ingredient (at 1/2 full price, probably). While some may balk at the idea of turning a bunch of +1 swords into a suit of +3 full plate, it's no less reasonable than turning a bunch of rare oils and sacred scrolls into the same thing. You're just moving the magic from one thing to another.
Sometimes someone is going to lose magic in the process; turning a useless (to him) 30,000gp item into a useful 18,000gp item. This is not a problem.
So magic marts? Don't really make sense to me, but there should always be avenues for the players to get the stuff they really need/want, so long as they can accept it's not going to be 'instant gratification'.
I hate the fact that some items have become "must haves". The idea that anything but the weakest or most simple to create items being off the shelf..just does not sit right with me. To WoWish...
Meaningless? When that wish is going to age you 3 years (1e DMG page 13)? I wouldn't consider that meaningless.
Which is pretty meaningless when a Wish can raise it right back. Per pg. 11 on the 1st Ed AD&D DMG, as long as the score is under 16, it's one Wish per point of increase.
By the time you have access to Wish as a spell, it's also fairly easy to make Potions of Longevity (although the cumulative 1% chance of reversal means this isn't a good long-term solution) or Elixirs of Youth (if allowing content from 1st Ed AD&D Unearthed Arcana). Note that there are other methods for high-level magic users to extend their life span: Reincarnation and Clone being two possibilities often used by those who don't want to make the transition to undeath as a lich. Higher level versions of Magic Jar to permanently transfer psyches between bodies also received attention in 1st/2nd AD&D.
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In my current campaign, I stick to the rules as written for WBL and buying/selling items. As long as you're in a major city, you can get basically anything below 16,000 GP on command; it'll just be there when you need it if I roll the 75% chance that it's there. If it costs more than that, you can custom-order it for its full normal price, assuming it doesn't require a CL of above 12 to make (in my campaign, 12 is the level cap for PC's, and anyone above it is a serious power in the world, not the kind of person who sits around making magic items for adventurers).
Of course, this 'no higher than CL 12' requirement does somewhat screw with the availability of a few high-end items, like weapons with the Brilliant Energy or Dancing properties or stat-boosting items that boost 3 different ability scores. As a result, if a player seems to be showing genuine interest in acquiring one, I'll drop it into a monster's hoard or treasure chest soon.
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I'm using the 1e PHB as a mousepad. Let me check...
Permanency is an automatic -1 con in 1e.
Which is pretty meaningless when a Wish can raise it right back. Per pg. 11 on the 1st Ed AD&D DMG, as long as the score is under 16, it's one Wish per point of increase.
Permanent magic items (unless clerical/druidic or racial items, as laid out on pg. 116-118) could only be made by 16th+ level magic users with 16+ Int (to be able to cast Permanency) or 14th+ level illusionists (using Major Creation and Alter Reality) in 1st Ed AD&D, anyway. Given the limitations, most "minor" permanent items would probably be created by churches or illusionists. The only magic users willing to "mass produce" permanent magic items would be 18th+ level arch-magi with 18+ Int who can cast Wish to recover the lost point of Con (of course, an arch-mage should have raised all of his ability scores other than Int to 16 with Wishes, if we're actually running them "correctly" in 1st Ed).
And on page 13 of the same book we find each of those wish spells age you 3 years. And, right above that, we see that the starting age for a human magic user is 32 years of age. Now, considering 1e isn't "I can be an archmage at age 23" rapid advancement like 3x, your 18th level wizard type is going to be really old. And, seeing as they had "you can die from natural causes" rules, your wizard could conceivably spell himself to death (but he'd leave a nice, toned corpse with that 16, dex, 16 str and 16 con, adjusted downward for age).
Yeah, a potion of longevity would, on average, knock seven years off of your age, but that still leaves you five years older than when you started casting all of those wishes. And there's that pesky 1% cumulative "this potion might work in reverse" caveat as well.
So, yeah, you're not gaming 1e like 3x, and intelligent wizards aren't cranking out magic items, sorry.
As far as the original topic goes, you can have a "magic item economy" without "Magic-Marts," as several people have already commented.
One of the things I liked about 3.x was that the developers finally got rid of the illogic of "magic items are common enough to be found in abandoned houses (U1 Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh) and dungeons, as well as in the possession of a decent percentage of the population (~2-10% is a decent precentage for luxury/niche products) and even monsters, but they are never (or hardly ever) sold/traded." How many people, as a percentage of the population, can afford Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Rolls Royces, stretch limos, etc. or even private jets? Somehow, these items still get created and sold/traded; in fact, there even exist "stores" (show-rooms, etc.) where you can just walk in and buy them "off the shelf."
Granted, these establishments are few and far between, just like high-value jewelry stores/trade shows (another real world equivalent). Treating magic items as a commodity is a smart thing when developing a world; just treat them as high-value items and draw on real world practices to help determine how you handle them in game.
Unstated among the discussion is one other reason some GMs refuse to allow the PCs to purchase magic items: control. Some GMs want to limit the PCs' choices to make it easier to dictate/guide/predict their actions or use certain plot devices. There's a basis for this in previous versions of the game, which could be pretty heavy-handed at times. However, since the CR system (which is not perfect, but a much better guide than existed previously) is so dependent on the expected Wealth-By-Level and "standard" items to function without modification, GMs who restrict magic item availability need to do more work when creating/modifying adventures; this can actually result in an enjoyable campaign, but the GM needs to be aware of it going in and make adjustments or it will start to fall apart when the PCs hit 5th-9th level.
So, yeah, you're not gaming 1e like 3x, and intelligent wizards aren't cranking out magic items, sorry.
See my post above discussing Potions of Longevity, Elixirs of Youth, Reincarnation, Clone, lich-hood, etc.
It's not as easy to "crank out magic items" in 1st/2nd Ed AD&D as it is in 3.x D&D, but it can definitely be done.
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By the time you have access to Wish as a spell, it's also fairly easy to make Potions of Longevity (although the cumulative 1% chance of reversal means this isn't a good long-term solution) or Elixirs of Youth (if allowing content from 1st Ed AD&D Unearthed Arcana). Note that there are other methods for high-level magic users to extend their life span: Reincarnation and Clone being two possibilities often used by those who don't want to make the transition to undeath as a lich. Higher level versions of Magic Jar to permanently transfer psyches between bodies also received attention in 1st/2nd AD&D.Meaningless? When that wish is going to age you 3 years (1e DMG page 13)? I wouldn't consider that meaningless.
Which is pretty meaningless when a Wish can raise it right back. Per pg. 11 on the 1st Ed AD&D DMG, as long as the score is under 16, it's one Wish per point of increase.
Using reincarnate, there's only about a 25% chance of coming back as something that will still allow you to be a wizard under 1e rules (and not much more of a chance of getting something that allows class levels at all). And, if a druid does the reincarnating, there's a good chance of coming back as something that cannot be a player character. And no sane wizard is going to risk that to make a magic item.
And, no, in 1e there were no higher levels of magic jar that did what you say (at least not in the PH or UA) , must have been completely a 2e thing.
I already discussed potions of longevity.
Clone is valid.
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Oh, yeah, and don't forget, for anything more than potion or a scroll, a wizard has to rest a day for every 100xp the item grants (if found). So, that +5 holy avenger would leave the wizard powerless (no spell casting) and stuck out (no adventuring) for 40 days.
No one was "cranking out" magic items. No one would give up spell casting for that long unless they absolutely needed that item to exist, or the commission was too good to pass up.
It depends on the campaign that I am running. When I get around to running Serpent's Skull...probably not. In Kingmaker where you have ample passage of time for characters to create items or take a trip to a large city to find something...sure. Even then they might not locate that dream item that would synergize 100% with their class mechanics. There are a lot of other shades of gray in how I deal with magic items as a GM but that's probably only interesting to me.
If you get setting specific then sure Golarion features a lot of powerful NPC's and magic items but it doesn't necessarily mean everyone has a +1 fork in their drawer. Unless the GM at your table says it is so. In which case, have fun eating with magic forks! Sounds cool! Either way I don't think Lisa Stephens is going to drive to your house, beat down your front door and give you a yellow card for 'doing it wrong.' They'd send an intern to do that...
It depends on the campaign that I am running. When I get around to running Serpent's Skull...probably not. In Kingmaker where you have ample passage of time for characters to create items or take a trip to a large city to find something...sure. Even then they might not locate that dream item that would synergize 100% with their class mechanics. There are a lot of other shades of gray in how I deal with magic items as a GM but that's probably only interesting to me.
If you get setting specific then sure Golarion features a lot of powerful NPC's and magic items but it doesn't necessarily mean everyone has a +1 fork in their drawer. Unless the GM at your table says it is so. In which case, have fun eating with magic forks! Sounds cool! Either way I don't think Lisa Stephens is going to drive to your house, beat down your front door and give you a yellow card for 'doing it wrong.' They'd send an intern to do that...
Yeah, the only people with +1 Forks are ghosts in abandoned houses and random Bugbears.
I am one of those that allow for magic items to be bought and sold.
Several of us have stated that there isn't a "magic mart" that buys and sells them in their worlds, but it is various individuals who may have an item or two for sale. The bigger the village/town/city, the greater chance of finding what you are looking for, or close to it. And if not available, there is a chance that it can be commissioned.
In my campaigns, I assign a percentage chance that the item being sought is available, with a much lower percentage for high end gear.
In the end, the GM should ask himself this,
"How many NPCs are so much higher level than the PCs in the campaign world that they sell off magical items of this caliber?"
I think that you are taking too narrow a view on why magic items may be available for purchase. Why does it only have to be higher level NPCs that are selling off gear?
I can see a merchant selling off a magic item, to help them cover debts for a few months, until their ships return to port with enough profit to pay off their debts, and maybe buy back the item.
I can see a noble family selling off the black sheep's gear when they die/go to jail/are banished/etc..
I can see the crown selling off an executed murderer's gear, or even the gear from a treasonous noble family.
I can see a magic college selling off items the students made, to cover expenses -likely a good source of low level wands, scrolls, potions and wondrous items.
I can see other adventurers selling off gear that doesn't suit them. Not every group will have a longword wielder, so they likely will dispose of the magic longsword that doesn't benefit them (say to buy a magic rapier).
There are a lot of reasons why magic items could be for sale, with the limit being your imagination.
The problem with magic being a "secret" is this:
If 10 people know a secret and 9 refuse to tell it, it's no longer a secret.
You have to make a rediculous situation where literally no wizard ever cooperates with others. All it really takes is for a single wizard to realize that he can cast permanent light (or whatever the spell is called) on a pole and sell them for cash and the work industry radically changes as it divorces itself from the hours of the sun.
Magic has never made "realistic" sense in any sense of the word, and "verisimilitude" is the practice of actively ignoring breaks in reality to allow for more "fun." I simply don't see why magic items are forced into different rules, other then "Well see, the jock classes can use them"
Until 3rd edition, magic item creation depended on a single high level Mage spell, required a roll to make it work, and caused permanent constitution loss. Also, since the entire rule-set for creating magic items was contained in a single 1/2 page spell description, there really wasn't much detail.
No, it was 10% chance of Con loss. And only for permanent non-charged stuff.
So making scrolls and wands if best since no chance of losing Con.
Until 3rd edition, magic item creation depended on a single high level Mage spell, required a roll to make it work, and caused permanent constitution loss. Also, since the entire rule-set for creating magic items was contained in a single 1/2 page spell description, there really wasn't much detail.
No, it was 10% chance of Con loss. And only for permanent non-charged stuff.
So making scrolls and wands if best since no chance of losing Con.
That's, uh, not what my copy of the rule books say.
Until 3rd edition, magic item creation depended on a single high level Mage spell, required a roll to make it work, and caused permanent constitution loss. Also, since the entire rule-set for creating magic items was contained in a single 1/2 page spell description, there really wasn't much detail.
No, it was 10% chance of Con loss. And only for permanent non-charged stuff.
So making scrolls and wands if best since no chance of losing Con.
That's, uh, not what my copy of the rule books say.
The problem with magic being a "secret" is this:
If 10 people know a secret and 9 refuse to tell it, it's no longer a secret.
..and they're all tracked down and assassinated by the sinister facist wizard's guild - for the good of the nation, of course...
...can't have any ole nutter casting spells now, can we?
Crikey, that'd be madness!
While contrived, the idea of a dominate organisation attempting to actively restrain/regulate (with extreme prejudice) magic makes a lot of sense - for exactly the reasons many have discovered when magic is let to run rampant in their campaign worlds.
Of course, many will argue it's a task that's doomed to fail -- which is great! It's from such scenarios we get..
....EPIC DRAMA!
Taking the risky real-world as an example, organisations take great pains to licence and control the flow of technology, the oft-cited real world equivalent of magic.
Now, as you touched upon with your wizard-casting-permanent-light-onto-a-rod-and-selling-it scenario -- magic can really make a mess of an economy, quickly making a select few the dominate forces...
This is campaign-thematics of course but aye, I've always found a campaign world that actually reflects/reacts to the problems magic/casters/items can and do cause highly appealing.
I don't see why some NPC casters wouldn't want to be happily crafting magic items for sale in a magic shop or taking orders for specific items. Not all casters would want to adventure all their lives. I could imagine quite a few adventurers would have one brush with death too many and decide on a quieter life.
A wizard who wants to continue doing magical research - without the risk- would happily craft for cash and then use that cash to pay others to go do the research/copy out the ancient runes in the Lost City of Ra/get 10cc of blue dragon blood/other dangerous stuff etc.
Or a wizard who likes the good life could spend a few weeks per month crafting and live a very, very luxurious lifestyle. If they know teleport they could be a Pathfinder equivalent of a cashed-up retiree and travel constantly.
Your crafting skills never decline so you could craft as often as you like for as long as you like and comfortably - and safely- live whatever type of life you want.
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I don't see why some NPC casters wouldn't want to be happily crafting magic items for sale in a magic shop or taking orders for specific items.
:)
FLEE!
O_O
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.....I don't see why some NPC casters wouldn't want to be happily crafting magic items for sale in a magic shop or taking orders for specific items.Paranoid Fascist Magic-Guild Assassins tasked with maintaining national stability with extreme prejudice for more information. :)
FLEE!
O_O
Unless of course those same magic-guild assassins were the ones making them for sale on the black market. Or a group from another kingdom.
you know kind of like the drug/ sex slave/ stolen art trades that government crack downs work so well stopping on earth. Creating contraband creates black markets
Better to pay low level wizards to examine and wizard mark all magic goods made/ entering the kingdom for tracking purposes. Still people will circumvent it to be sure, but it frees up those mage assassins to be generating taxable revenue in selling goods rather than taking from the states coffers to track down folks.
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Until 3rd edition, magic item creation depended on a single high level Mage spell, required a roll to make it work, and caused permanent constitution loss. Also, since the entire rule-set for creating magic items was contained in a single 1/2 page spell description, there really wasn't much detail.
No, it was 10% chance of Con loss. And only for permanent non-charged stuff.
So making scrolls and wands if best since no chance of losing Con.
1e it was a 1 point con loss. Not a 10% chance. Go to page 91 of your Player's Handbook. Look up "Permanency".
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Interestingly not many of my players care all that much about what magic items they have. (One or two of the WoW players go googly eyed, and my girl gamers like any magic item that does something weird/different (like letting them shapeshift, or folding boats)). For the most part though, they never seem to be looking for anything specific to augment their abilities.
I feel I should encourage the sorcerer to seek out more scrolls, if only to increase his utility.