I'm trying to create a character that is some kind of a con artist, slightly based on the Saffron ("Our Mrs. Reynolds") character from Firefly. She should, of course be good at bluffing et. al. but also able to hold her own in a fight, maybe even unarmed.
My current idea is a rogue with the spy archetype and master spy prestige class, plus Improved Unarmed Strike and maybe Improved Feint. I don't see her as a spellcaster. She should be around 10th level.
Does anyone have any good ideas?
Rogue into Master Spy?
:D
GNOME
I'd suggest grabbing a varied selection of Professions so your character always has a spare identity to slide into.
Given your character concept Courtesan is a given, and Cook as well. Scribe and Barrister will often allow you access to the wealthy, and Scribe will allow you to forge documents as well.
After that...Sailor or Navigator is good for helping with a fast getaway.
Here's a fast-talking PC of mine. He was slanted as a second story man, but pretty glib too. Nothing flashy in combat. Ranged attacks with the bow or dagger and sneak attacks if he can get a flank. He's been fun to play.
Firest, yes, various Professions is a good tip, so Intelligence should probably not be too low. Thanks!
Romon: was your post supposed to contain a link or something?
Firest, yes, various Professions is a good tip, so Intelligence should probably not be too low. Thanks!
Romon: was your post supposed to contain a link or something?
I think he's posting under the aforementioned character's alias. Click on his name, "Romon". :)
I think he's posting under the aforementioned character's alias. Click on his name, "Romon". :)
Oh, clever. :)
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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I played a Mentalist character once, so I can really understand where you want to go with this.
First, you need to talk to your GM. If they are not up to role playing NPCs you are conning, or feel like the opportunities are going to be few, then I suggest that you look into other builds.
Also, talk to the other players. They need to be willing to give you the spotlight around NPCs, and let you be the party leader and face. This is not so much a problem, but if you have a player who wants to play a character that will rush into every combat, or who has a huge ego, you are going to have a problem.
Con Artist PCs can be fun but the hardest to play if the game and party are not fit for them.
Now how to build one.
Bard is my top choice.
The spells and class features give them the ability to interact with people naturally. It takes little work to build a bard that would could con the bad guys.
Bluff is the one skill you need to keep boosted, clearly, but diplomacy and intimidate will also be key as not all cons rely on lies, but making friends or scaring people. Sense Motive is also key because a con never wants to be conned. Slight of Hand is also a top choice for obvious reasons.
Knowledge skills would be next, with Preform: Storytelling being another skill to consider. Why storytelling? Where bluff and diplomacy are about the words you use, and how convincing they are, storytelling is about the flair of it all. Body language, pitch, tone, voices, and facial expressions are all part of story telling. It can be used to gather crowds, get reactions from people and crowds, and might even give synergy bonus to other skills if the GM allows.
Profession skills would only help if you want to have working knowledge of a profession to better con someone. I don't think these would be that great to put ranks into. However, Craft: Traps might be an appropriate choice of craft skill if you have extra skill points.
Choose spells that work against people and disguise you.
Lastly, as a player you need to keep a notebook of possible ways to con the NPCs. Having a source of such knowledge will help your character seem witty and smart. Shows like Leverage, the Mentalist, and White Collar are great sources for ideas. As you use the material, talk to your GM about how the cons work, and work out a system to determine how well they works. Mostly these would rely on Bluff checks, but other skill checks would need to be used.
Find creative uses for mundane items. This might not seem con artist like, but it will make him feel smart and the creative uses fit the build.
Funny enough, the detective archetype has some abilities that would be useful if you are playing a good aligned con artist (one that would con people into revealing the truth.)
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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I posted this long post, that had tons of advice. It looks like it didn't post. TO paraphrase it:
Talk to your GM and Party. If they feel like the opportunities will be low for conning, or if a PC wont be compatible with your own, then look into another build.
Bard all the way. The Detective Archetype works pretty well if you want to play someone like the Mentalist. Spells need to be about other people and changing their feelings towards you. Disguising spells are a must.
Skills listed in matter of importance:
Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Disguise, Slight of Hand, Stealth, Perception, Perform: Storytelling, Knowledge skills. Profession skills are pretty useless to you unless you need a working knowledge of specific professions for a con. Storytelling is to build on the interaction skills. It might give synergy bonuses as well, and there a some great creative uses for it.
Keep a notebook of con ideas to use at the table. Watch some shows that have con men (mentalist, leverage, white collar) for ideas. Work with your GM on how they work.
Wanting to be a manipulator, fast-talker and influence, you're shooting yourself in the foot by not being a caster at all. A rogue needs to dedicate multiple talents and half his being to do what a bard or enchanter can do trivially with minor spells and class abilities.
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mechanics aside, your best resource will be your table-talk.
stay confident in your every move, and keep the mark talking.
as far as skills go: diplomacy, sense motive, sleight of hand, professions, knowledges, bluff, linguistics will all be key. a few dabblings into the physical skills won't go amiss, either.
Rogue (Spy) will do nicely, Master Spy will work as well (as you've already planned).
I'm not sure if there's a trait or something similar, but the ability to pretend to another race or gender with reduced penalties will help out.
A Hat of Disguise and anything like the old Shiftweave (Eberron stuff - can store multiple outfits in one set of clothes, and able to swap between them as standard action) that can help you quick change yourself will add to your approach/escape vectors.
In game: always be nice, but not overly so, to all the random NPC's you find. Orphan kids, bartenders, hookers, and innkeepers all make great assets. Tip appropriately, and always pay cash. Always keep an eye on the entrances / exits, and don't be afraid to cut & run when it's called for. A con who lives to con again is successful, after all.
Out of game: write up names & 2 line backgrounds for half a dozen personalities, and test the various ones out early on. If you're constantly meeting new people / places, you can be a bit more reckless in your scams. If you have a base of operations, consider becoming a "Pillar of the Community" or similar local "goodguy" to put yourself above suspicion.
Good luck, stay flexible, and enjoy.
1/2 elf Ranger Urban 4 / Rouge cutpurse 4/ Wizard Enchanter 2 /Arcane Trickster 10
Skill Focus Bluff, Familiar, Favor Enemy (What ever race you are going to be fooling/ fighting)
Bluff at level 3 Min +15
Ranks +3
Class Skill +3
Skill Focus +3
Enchanter +2
CHA Stat +1
Trait +1
Favored Enemy most like +2
Rouge Talent Take Combat Expirse and Improved Fient
Team work Presise Strike
Team Work Out Flank
Dirty Trick
Take there stuff in combat and out
Sleigh of Hand, Bluff, Stealth, are your best skills
Thank you all, these are some very helpful tips!
Don't forget to drop a few points into languages, it helps when bluffing if you speak the right language.
And have you considered the Beguiler? Most seem to feel that it can be dropped into Pathfinder as is, but there are a few conversions that smooth out what few issues there are on the forum.
Whatever you choose make sure to max Diplomacy, Perception, and Sense Motive. These skills let you spot a mark, run the con, and get out when the getting is good.
If you are open to book recomendations allow me to point you twords "Lies of Locke Lamora" by Scott Lynch. Good feel for the life of a fantasy conman.
Link:(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lies_of_Locke_Lamora)
~will
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I agree with the Bard detective; good charisma, good dex. For fighting be a half-elf and use nets, they are really solid and let you concentrate stats on dex/wis/chr.
For 20 points:
Half-Elf detective bard
Str: 8
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Chr: 16
Half-elf alts: EWP-net, +1 level on spell-completion
Skills: disable device, perception, diplomacy, bluff, sneak, sense motive, disguise (use favored class for skills).
If you can get a friend to play an inquisitor, they would make an excellent complement, and the two of you would be unstoppable in this idea.
1: Point Blank Shot 3: Precise shot, then start working on skill focuses. If you can get someone to take lookout with you do it.... high perception + augmented bonus will make you able to turn around ambushes well, or act fully when you suprise them. The master spy is OK, but I'd stick with bard and augment self with spells (alter self etc).
You'll be able to con and sneak great, allies
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Rogue is just going to gimp your party beyond belief, I would make a bardDisagree entirely.
I should have clarified that to mean in-combat only. Until you've seen rogues do less damage in an entire campaign than a min/maxxed dpr class can in one round, you are welcome to disagree. In another thread I showed a level 5 that can do almost as much damage as a level 20 (non min/max) rogue who sneak attacks.
Please keep this discussion out of this thread. I'm not looking for a minmaxed/optimized character but for one that is fun to play, still not destined to feel completely useless. I don't care for stuff like "dpr" at all. I am looking for a character designed for role-playing. Also, I've played enough rogues and see them played in my own campaigns to not consider them generally useless at all.
Regarding the idea of a bard, yes it might be useful, but I currently see the character as wanting to achieve her goals by her wiles and not by magic, I think she might consider that a cheap, or even a kind of "cheating".
I could see an Alchemist as a Con Artist. You're intelligence based, meaning you get good skill points. You just need to be able to get Bluff on your skill list (Fast Talker Trait?) and the extracts gives you a lot of options to shine as a Con Artist. (Disguise Self, Alter self, Negate Aroma, Eagle's Splendor, Perceive Cues, Detect Thoughs, Undetectable Alignment, just to name a few.)
And you can make dramatic exits with smoke bombs... yeah.
Could be fun.
Anyway, maybe you consider this to be "spellcasting" - I myself see the alchemist more as a weird scientist or mad doctor, so I proposed the idea anyway.
Interesting idea. Something to think about, at least; thank you!
Interesting idea. Something to think about, at least; thank you!
You're welcome