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As for me, I'd settle for unpainted plastics for the purpose representing "mooks". As a general comment, I find that plastics are a little more durable, in my humble opinion, for regular gaming use. I am not into making "Display Master Pieces" for something that will go through the rigors of constant use from gaming.
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I've repainted several of the WotC plastics, when the paintjob was messy, and for the most part, the original paint didn't obscure the details.
A quick black spray and some primer, and they looked much improved, the detail was still there to see, and paint back properly.
Same with various MageKnight and Heroclix, though the sculpting on those is much more hit and miss.
Although I would primarily use prepainted minis for RPGing, (And would want the product arrayed as such. The model in the previous post seems like it would work splendidly for this.) I also wouldn't mind a new minis game. So the market must still exist for that, since it took me a while to be won over to minis gameplay.
I also wouldn't mind a new minis game. So the market must still exist for that, since it took me a while to be won over to minis gameplay.
Hear, hear!
A minis game just seems to make sense. It gives you something else to do with your minis, making them a bigger "value" than just RPG use, and it opens the market to CMG crowd that doesn't want to collect minis.
I thought heroscape would fit that avenue, but unfortunately, it was decided to start re-using pre-existing molds, versus making the product seperate and distinct. I didn't mind changing the bases, and it was even better when they started to use standard bases for the medium size figures.
There is a market at the right price, and people are spoiled with the prices initially offered by wizards. Whether a smaller company could offer the same is doubtful, unless the quality offered is that much greater. Even then, you probably need a crystal ball in regards to what people will consistently buy over the long term. Introducing a quick mini game, similar to magic the gathering card game, would be the best bet.
Kevida, here is the link you wanted, for the Pathfinder excel character generator and spell list generator:
Wow, been reading over all the posts in this thread....
What about a compromise between blind-packs and the sets that everyone asks for?
Some bring up theme sets, much like WotC Dragoneye and Giants of Legend sets....Some have asked for themed Orc sets, or BBEG with minions....
What about combination blind-pack theme sets?
Savage Humanoids - Combo Theme Set....Orcs, Goblinoids, Lizardfolk, Kobolds, and so on....
You could do a combination theme blind-pack for many other themes...
The Planes.....Angels, Demons, Devils, Astral, Ethereal, and so on...
Summoned Creature Set combo blind-pack...It would include animals, elementals, and all other sorts...
A Nature Combo Pack - Fey, Plant, Vermin, and humanoids that have something to do with nature....
Arcana based Combo Pack - Magical Beasts, Constructs, Dragons, and so on.....
Most of these seem like they are based on the Knowledge Checks...but you could do Earth/Under Ground Theme.....
Dwarves, Giants, Earth Elementals, Drow, Aberrations, Earth Based Outsiders...
For Pathfinder you could also do the APs most needed/iconic line....instead of trying to cover each AP combined them...and cover your basis....
WotC tried the themed blind-pack, every set they did with a theme, there were a large chunk of miniatures that really didn't need to be in that set or weren't useful at all...
With the Combo themed blind-pack....you are on a business model that can succeed, but at the same time caters to what a lot of people need....lots of specific stuff...
These sets won't have all the useless random junk were used to seeing, they will have tons of common stuff we need....
So for instance...say that you did a Savage Humanoid Theme....
50 minis.... 30 common, 15 uncommon, and 5 rare....You do Orcs, Goblins, Kobolds, Lizard Folk, and Hobgoblins....
6 common for each race, 3 uncommon, and 1 rare....
Hence Combo Sets....these are random, but people will want to collect the blind-packs to get these smaller themed sets....but they will be easier to get since more than half of each are common.
Just do the most common molds...using different weapons, stances, and archetypes for each of the commons....then do class based for the uncommons...like a Cleric Lizard Folk...they come up, but uncommon...
Then for the Rare...you do a cool BBEG for each race....
What do people think? Combination Themed Blind-Packs, more specific than any other themed pre-painted plastic minis. They compromise the collectors, the RPers, the GMs looking for useful minis, and the people who like the random packs....all into one, without making a ton of useless minis...
They could shoot for several releases a year, since they have a better targeted market, putting out several combo themes. The combo themed blind packs will have better market than selling individually or in known themed packs, almost as good or better than totally random blind packs.....
Bottom Line....you know that even though its a random pack of minis your getting something that you will use. The average person won't mind buying more and more packs looking for those uncommon and rare minis, cause they can trade and sell off what they have without any problem.
Since Reaper already had a prepainted mini line which was cancelled
LE was cancelled? I haven't read about this. Do you have a link for the announcement?
Oh. And a handy "Complete Iconics" containing all the class iconics. For $20.
Cheapness is relevant. I dont want masterwork plastic figurines. I want many cheap ones. The high-end stuff is for the serious collector.
All you need is a couple hundred thousand others to want the same thing and you're good to go.
One thing both wotc and Reaper said repeatedly is that the fixed costs for plastic miniatures is enormous. Since those fixed costs will be spread over the total production, you need to sell lots and lots of figures to get them to be cheap.
One big problem with DDM was that the miniatures got worse over time, not better.
At first, there was a steady increase in quality. This peaked at the Underdark set (set 8, I think). There are common miniatures from that set that look better than some rares from the early sets.
But starting with the next set, Wardrums, things went downhill. Miniatures became more expensive, but at the same time, the quality decreased. They got less paint steps (so there was a lot less colour on them), and there were more crappy rares again. Since rares are supposed to be those super figures that are not only powerful in the DDM game, but also really awesome and have more complicated sculpts and paint jobs (you got a set of 8 figures - 4 common, 3 uncommon, 1 rare. Since the commons were simpler sculpts and point jobs, the extra effort could go into the rares and it all was supposed to even out).
Add to that some instances of false advertising (the pictures they showed of the miniatures were not figures you could get out of the boosters, but rather paint masters with a lot more detail.)
I just ordered a tube of Silver Warriors from Plastoy (they remind me of Heroes of Might and Magic V haven squires) from amazon.co.uk. They're supposed to be 4.5cm tall. A bit bigger than your usual DDM/Reaper pieces, but I'll let you know whether they still fit the grid.
The problem that I see with themes are that, when they started using them, the themes WotC used were their campaign settings, or major events in those campaign settings.
This allowed them the leeway to (usually) put in a decent amount of general purpose minis to attract people to purchase a themed set they otherwise wouldn't have.
The first several sets weren't really themed, and even subsequent sets that carried a theme (say, for example, "Underdark") weren't so theme heavy.
Later set sculpt-quality and paint-quality issues aside (to say nothing of re-sculpts or repaints), it really does seem like catering to the various complaints that people had about D&D Miniatures was what seemed to seal their doom.
Specifically, non-blind packs, heavier themed packs, disinterest in skirmish game, packs of "only monsters", etc.
By most accounts, the partial-blind packs didn't sell well, the "Player's Handbook Heroes" packs didn't sell well, and the selection of minis from those later sets just wasn't good.
Further, in order to accommodate those complaints, they had to raise the cost of the minis rather substantially. Set-based boosters contained less minis for the same price (You got 8 minis in a pack of "Against The Giants" compared to 5 minis in a pack of "Legendary Evils"). The completely non-blind "PC" packs ("Player's Handbook Heroes") retailed for $10.95 for 3 minis - and even at that price, the sets contained repaints, and poor quality repaints at that.
I fully realize that DDM died during what could be considered the worst parts of the whole recession period, and I'm sure that didn't help things, but really, DDM had been on a decline for a bit, the massive acceleration to their death was listening to the people who WEREN'T buying the minis and giving them what THEY wanted, rather than the people who WERE buying them already.
The fact is, in regards to D&D Miniatures, the only time they ever sold well was when they were sold as a non-themed or loosely-themed completely blind booster that also contained a quality skirmish game.
Heavier theming of a set would (and did) turn off a lot of potential buyers.
When they switched to the partial-blinds (heavily themed around the 4E Monster Manuals), a lot of folks admittedly stopped buying boosters or cases, and just waited for the singles market to give them what they wanted.
Heck, near the end, online discounters were dumping CASES of the partial-blind sets for barely above their cost, due to how poorly they were selling. Cases of Legendary Evils were selling for $59 and cases of Savage Encounters were going for $49.
Considering that retail cost of the LE case was $175.92 and SE was $119.92, it's easy to conclude that they weren't selling well for WotC.
"Liberace beholder"
Just now got around to reading this thread. Thanks, Kevin - I've been looking for a new villain NPC to introduce into my campaign, and the Liberace eye tyrant is the best idea anyone's given me yet!
LE was cancelled? I haven't read about this. Do you have a link for the announcement?
Since Reaper already had a prepainted mini line which was cancelledNope, not cancelled. As a matter of fact, there are new minis in the line coming next month.
-Lisa
Ah, good. Send them right on to me, you have my address. :)
What's in the line-up? I read something about scaled ra - uh, I mean, kobolds, but what else?
I'll need a dozen scaled rats at least.
LE was cancelled? I haven't read about this. Do you have a link for the announcement?
Since Reaper already had a prepainted mini line which was cancelledNope, not cancelled. As a matter of fact, there are new minis in the line coming next month.
-Lisa
Hurrah! :D
-The Gneech
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Ah, good. Send them right on to me, you have my address. :)
What's in the line-up? I read something about scaled ra - uh, I mean, kobolds, but what else?
I'll need a dozen scaled rats at least.
I think there's :
Kobold Warriors (set of 3)Gnoll Warrior
Giant Rats (Set of 3)
and Dwarf Warrior
Coming out this month
Chief Technical Officer
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These are the Legendary Encounters available for preorder right now.
(That link uses our search engine to find whichever LEs are preorderable at any given moment.)
These are the Legendary Encounters available for preorder right now.
(That link uses our search engine to find whichever LEs are preorderable at any given moment.)
I tried to order one of each (except the kobolds, I put 4 packs into the cart) and make it one shipment, but the system would show them shipping separately (with lots and lots of shipping costs). Is it possible to preorder them as a package and get the shipping cost for the whole shebang?
Love pre-done miniatures, although I will admit (from behind my Wall of Force/Wall of Iron with Invisibility cast upon it and with my Ring of Greater Get Me the Hell out of Here! at the ready) that I often use Warhammer Miniatures and modify them to be closer in appearance to Pathfinder 'ideals', and it's quite satisfying to see the GM reach for your Ork, hand-detailed into a unique individual, and use him as the Tribal Champion for an encounter.
And yes, I'd like to see a singular shipping function made available, please, if it's not too much trouble. Shipping costs are murder out here in Australia, something to do with the American crews being too scared of the brain-eating drop-bears and the fact that everything in Australia is either poisonous, man-eating or both.
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I tried to order one of each (except the kobolds, I put 4 packs into the cart) and make it one shipment, but the system would show them shipping separately (with lots and lots of shipping costs). Is it possible to preorder them as a package and get the shipping cost for the whole shebang?These are the Legendary Encounters available for preorder right now.
(That link uses our search engine to find whichever LEs are preorderable at any given moment.)
I *think* that preorders from other companies need to ship seporitly when shipping alone, but if they come in at the same time it will combine (not 100% on that though) another option is to set them to ship out with your next subscription shipment after they come in...
Shipping costs are murder out here in Australia, something to do with the American crews being too scared of the brain-eating drop-bears and the fact that everything in Australia is either poisonous, man-eating or both.
We're afraid of dingoes eating our babies.
And guys with real knives.
Shipping costs are murder out here in Australia, something to do with the American crews being too scared of the brain-eating drop-bears and the fact that everything in Australia is either poisonous, man-eating or both.
We're afraid of dingoes eating our babies.
And guys with real knives.
** spoiler omitted **
Bart: That's not a knife, that's a spoon.
Australian: I see you've played Knifey-spoony before.
I know there has been some discussion of people wanting a Intro Pathfinder game.
Could Pathfinder create a HeroQuest (or even HeroScape) type of game, using very simplified game rules relating to Pathfinder? Have a master set with a board and a set of core miniatures. Then have expansions with sets of more specialized miniatures.
You could play the board game version or you could just buy the packs and harvest the plastic miniatures from them.
Any chance that might be possible?
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Chief Technical Officer
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I tried to order one of each (except the kobolds, I put 4 packs into the cart) and make it one shipment, but the system would show them shipping separately (with lots and lots of shipping costs). Is it possible to preorder them as a package and get the shipping cost for the whole shebang?I *think* that preorders from other companies need to ship seporitly when shipping alone, but if they come in at the same time it will combine (not 100% on that though) another option is to set them to ship out with your next subscription shipment after they come in...
Yep—since we don't know whether grouped preorders from other companies will come in together or months apart, we require that they be shipped separately. (If we didn't do that, people would preorder a bunch of stuff, and one of the products wouldn't arrive for months, and the rest would sit around in our warehouse until the customer got annoyed, and that's just no good.) If they came in at the same time, they'd probably go out in the same package, but since your shipping chrage is set at order time, not shipping time, it wouldn't reduce your costs.
But if you're a subscriber, putting them in your sidecart is a fine idea, as they'll ship within a few weeks of arrival, yet you'll save on shipping.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I know there has been some discussion of people wanting a Intro Pathfinder game.
Could Pathfinder create a HeroQuest (or even HeroScape) type of game, using very simplified game rules relating to Pathfinder? Have a master set with a board and a set of core miniatures. Then have expansions with sets of more specialized miniatures.
You could play the board game version or you could just buy the packs and harvest the plastic miniatures from them.
Any chance that might be possible?
Not really. As we've been saying, our whole problem with plastic minis is that they're too expensive to make. Since intro games need to be reasonably priced, including plastic minis in them is unfortunately counterproductive.
Not really. As we've been saying, our whole problem with plastic minis is that they're too expensive to make. Since intro games need to be reasonably priced, including plastic minis in them is unfortunately counterproductive.I know there has been some discussion of people wanting a Intro Pathfinder game.
Could Pathfinder create a HeroQuest (or even HeroScape) type of game, using very simplified game rules relating to Pathfinder? Have a master set with a board and a set of core miniatures. Then have expansions with sets of more specialized miniatures.
You could play the board game version or you could just buy the packs and harvest the plastic miniatures from them.
Any chance that might be possible?
I would have thought board game quality miniatures would be substantially cheaper.
The mold to make a plastic mini is much more expensive than the mold to make a pewter mini. Even if that plastic mini is of lower detail than the equivalent pewter mini.
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The mold to make a plastic mini is much more expensive than the mold to make a pewter mini. Even if that plastic mini is of lower detail than the equivalent pewter mini.
You got that right. It's like trading water for whiskey. Hobbyists and under capitalized gamers can realistically get into the lead/pewter manufacturing game without a ton of dough in their pocket. Many have, over the years.
But high pressure injection molded plastic? No. That's a different sort of game entirely. A largish creature set of injection molds is a capital cost measured in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, minimum.
Different scale of capital requirements, entirely.
The mold to make a plastic mini is much more expensive than the mold to make a pewter mini. Even if that plastic mini is of lower detail than the equivalent pewter mini.You got that right. It's like trading water for whiskey. Hobbyists and under capitalized gamers can realistically get into the lead/pewter manufacturing game without a ton of dough in their pocket. Many have, over the years.
But high pressure injection molded plastic? No. That's a different sort of game entirely. A largish creature set of injection molds is a capital cost measured in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, minimum.
Different scale of capital requirements, entirely.
Out of curiousity then, how does the Legendary Encounter's manufacturer do it? I assume they are managing to do it profitably, so it looks like there is a business model that works.
Out of curiousity then, how does the Legendary Encounter's manufacturer do it? I assume they are managing to do it profitably, so it looks like there is a business model that works.
I don't know for sure, but I'd guess already having master molds of all the minis from their initial run as pewter/lead minis probably saves them enough to make it feasible.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Out of curiousity then, how does the Legendary Encounter's manufacturer do it? I assume they are managing to do it profitably, so it looks like there is a business model that works.
I'm not sure either. I do know that not every mini can be made in the LE style, but I don't know what the restrictions are or why they exist. But Legendary Encounters and Reaper are effectively two brands of the same company, and we've told them that if they ever think it makes sense to do Pathfinder Minis as prepainted plastics, we'd be thrilled to see it.
I removed a post using offensive language.
Out of curiousity then, how does the Legendary Encounter's manufacturer do it? I assume they are managing to do it profitably, so it looks like there is a business model that works.
I'm not sure, but I would *assume* (and possibly be making an ass of myself), that they use a more 'rubbery' type of plastic. The more rubbery the final product is, the easier it is to make a working mold. GW-style plastic pieces, that are hard enough to put ultra-fine detail in, as well as being able to be made sharp enough to puncture flesh are VERY expensive to mold.
Compare those to D&D minis, where the swords and spears are often 'floppy', and you could mark a mini with your thumbnail. Those are lower detail, lower quality, and conversely cheaper to create molds than the ultra-high-end GW stuff.
If these guys are even more flexible, they'll be even cheaper to mold. I'd also guess they limit themselves to very basic forms that aren't high stress, either.
However, this is all just guesswork on my part.
Out of curiousity then, how does the Legendary Encounter's manufacturer do it? I assume they are managing to do it profitably, so it looks like there is a business model that works.I'm not sure either. I do know that not every mini can be made in the LE style, but I don't know what the restrictions are or why they exist. But Legendary Encounters and Reaper are effectively two brands of the same company, and we've told them that if they ever think it makes sense to do Pathfinder Minis as prepainted plastics, we'd be thrilled to see it.
Thanks Vic.(if I were ever teaching marketing, you guys would be a great example of a company that engages and informs your customers really well) It is heartening to know that LE is having a go at making their model work and that Paizo is supportive. I guess it is now up to us gamers to buy their minis to make it worth their while to expand their range.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I'm not sure, but I would *assume* (and possibly be making an ass of myself), that they use a more 'rubbery' type of plastic. The more rubbery the final product is, the easier it is to make a working mold. GW-style plastic pieces, that are hard enough to put ultra-fine detail in, as well as being able to be made sharp enough to puncture flesh are VERY expensive to mold.
Out of curiousity then, how does the Legendary Encounter's manufacturer do it? I assume they are managing to do it profitably, so it looks like there is a business model that works.
It's been a while since I've had one in my hands, but I seem to remember that they actually feel more resiny—not quite brittle, but close. Which leads me to think they're not using the really expensive steel molds that are required for the high pressures and temperatures needed to mold most plastics, but probably some softer metal that doesn't allow quite those temps or pressures. But I too am only guessing.
It really is a shame that there's no viable way to do pre-painted minis for the PF line that Reaper has out. I love the way the minis look painted, and would love to have them for my games. But I'm no painter, and I think just about every mini out there looks like garbage unpainted.