"5 more BAB"= 1 more attack a round
They receive a rogue talent every even level, they are more specific than feats, feats in many cases are better.
The damage bonus can't always be applied and cannot be applied to everything, as opposed to the fighter bonus.
Fighters get reduced penalties for fighting in medium/heavy armor
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So I just now noticed that Rogue receive d8 Hit Die, isn't that a little absurd.
They receive a Rogue Talent almost every even level which are almost equal or in some cases ARE feats.
Receive 6 more Skill Points per level.
Get an additional d6 damage every even level compared to the +1 to hit and damage the fighter gets every 4ish levels.The only thing the poor fighter gets is Full Plate, Shields, d2 more HP, and 5 more BAB.
Unlike Rogue, Fighter doesn't need situational conditions to perform at full potential. And even then, he will outdamage a Rogue anytime.
Also the chance for that last attack to actually hit are usually pretty slim =\
Then the rogue's third attack will rarely hit.
Perhaps, but the fighter is usually at least an iterative attack ahead of the rogue in terms of what hits.
The Rogues tend to go usually hit/sometimes hit/rarely hit.
The Fighters tend to go auto-hit/usually hit/sometimes hit/rarely hit.
Greater Weapon Focus and Weapon Training give a Fighter who focuses on using one kind of weapon a +2 attack bonus over what pretty much any other class can achieve at level 5. That stacks up to a +6 bonus at level 20.
That is to say, at level 20 a Fighter using his focused weapon has effectively a +26 attack bonus before even adding in his strength bonus, let alone magic weapons/other equipment. A level 20 Rogue has... +16 (15 Base, +1 Weapon Focus).
He is also 20 hit points ahead assuming they have the same Con scores. The Fighter probably has a better one, netting him an even larger margin or advantage in the taking hits department.
You are right in that the Fighter is still a bit out shined by the casters in the late game, but he also sure as heck isn't gonna be out fought in a stand up fight by a Rogue either, assuming both characters are built by equally competent people.
EDIT: My initial math was off by 1, in favor of the Rogue. So now the Fighter beats him up even harder :P
"5 more BAB"= 1 more attack a round
Also the chance for that last attack to actually hit are usually pretty slim =\
Never mind iterative attacks, the Fighter hits more often period. At every level, he will hit where the rogue might miss. It starts at 5% more likely and climbs from there (+10% at 4th, etc.). Also, said Fighter will confirm criticals more often as well.
fighter bonuses
I would argue that you are in favor of the rogue by 2 more points -- the gloves of the duelist are designed for a fighter and at level 20 he should have a pair which would put him at +28 before anything else kicks in (like magical weapons and the like) -- I point this item out because the rogue has nothing like it and can't use it.
But at the same token the rogue gains an additional 10d6 damage and a save or die effect on sneak attacks.
The Fighter gets DR 5/- at 19th level, a paltry amount at that late in the game IMO.
No amount of Not Dying is paltry.
10d6 = about 35 hp.
The fighter has +4 from greater weapon specialization, +4 from weapon training +2 from duelist gloves giving him +10 immediately.
If the rogue takes power attack he'll get a -4 penalty for +12 damage (if TwF)
The fighter takes power attack and gets -6 penalty for a +18 damage (either TwF or Two Handed) -- he is almost much more likely to be getting anywhere from +10~+15 from his strength to damage as well.
So we have 1d6+5(magical weapon)+12(power attack)+35 for the rogue 3~6 times, at +12~+10 to hit
The fighter has 1d*~2d6+10(above)+5(magical weapon)+10/15(two weapon fighting or two handed strength)+18(power attack either two weapon or two handed) at +22 to hit 4~7 times.
The fighter will auto-confirm criticals for an increased critical multiplier as well.
Also this doesn't take into account the mobile fighter archetype -- which can full attack as a standard action.
And it doesn't take into account the fact that the fighter is millions of times better of being an archer.
The rogue is the classic "glass cannon" without any accuracy.
The fighter can completely avoid hits (with an AC well over 50) can take those that land on him, and can dish it back out much more accurately without needing special circumstances.
So I just now noticed that Rogue receive d8 Hit Die, isn't that a little absurd.
They receive a Rogue Talent almost every even level which are almost equal or in some cases ARE feats.
Receive 6 more Skill Points per level.
Get an additional d6 damage every even level compared to the +1 to hit and damage the fighter gets every 4ish levels.The only thing the poor fighter gets is Full Plate, Shields, d2 more HP, and 5 more BAB.
Whoa... I don't even know where to start, my head hurts now.
I suggest you search the threads for builds and note what the fighter can do in terms of AC and damage compared to rogues
*channeling Agent Smith* What good is your Master Strike... if you are unable to hit?
OK, silliness aside, Master Strike *is* pretty nifty. If you can get the fighter flanked of flat-footed. Also, the Fort save is probably going to be about DC 24 or 25 (10 + 10 + I am guessing an Int of around 18 or 20 with items. Rogues don't tend to have really high Ints, although you could certainly build one that increased that DC by another point or two) which the Fighter has a better than 50% chance of making.
OK, silliness aside, Master Strike *is* pretty nifty. If you can get the fighter flanked of flat-footed. Also, the Fort save is probably going to be about DC 24 or 25 (10 + 10 + I am guessing an Int of around 18 or 20 with items. Rogues don't tend to have really high Ints, although you could certainly build one that increased that DC by another point or two) which the Fighter has a better than 50% chance of making.
::Proof of concept on the fighter making this save::
+12 base fort save+5 cloak of resistance
+5 con modifier
+22 fortitude save total
Rangers have been a d10 HD since 3.5 at least, maybe even 3.0.
EDIT: Gloves of Dueling (not"the duelist")are in the APG.
Huh, so did I. What am I thinking of? Maybe the swashbuckler...
Huh, so did I. What am I thinking of? Maybe the swashbuckler...
They were d10 in 2nd though.
I don't see how they would step on fighters toes. the two classes have totally different play styles. rogues rarely come close to fighters in damage and a rogue trying to play like a fighter will likely die in horrible and painful ways.
Rangers were d10 in 3.0 and 8 in 3.5 . At one point they were d8 with 2d8 at first level.
Anyway, the fighter has a higher AC, more of a chance to hit, armor training and weapon training. That and feats make the fighter the king of melee DPR. The rogues SHOULD be doing more.. but they are not. With anyone able to find traps, and all skills open to all characters its the rogue, not the fighter, that seems to have lost there way. There used to be something special about being able to max out your ranks in spot, tumble, bluff and the "cool" skills, now anyone can do it.
So I just now noticed that Rogue receive d8 Hit Die, isn't that a little absurd.
They receive a Rogue Talent almost every even level which are almost equal or in some cases ARE feats.
Receive 6 more Skill Points per level.
Get an additional d6 damage every even level compared to the +1 to hit and damage the fighter gets every 4ish levels.The only thing the poor fighter gets is Full Plate, Shields, d2 more HP, and 5 more BAB.
How does this qualify as a rules question?
A master of learned fighting doesn't necessarily equate to book smarts, the fighter gains good feats, weapon training, and armor training to represent what he knows.
Also with a 10 int any fighter can still have 3 skill points per level.
EDIT: Hit Die was standardized in PF.
Why are the rogue and fighter squabbling over table scraps while the cleric and wizard feast?
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Fighters can max out 2 of those skills,
3 with favored class.
Why does the rogue getting a bigger Hit Die fair for the fighter. He already has plenty of other good perks, why did he need a bigger Hit Die.
Hit Die is tied to BAB in Pathfinder. To keep a d6 HD, the Rogue would have to be downgraded to 1/2 BAB.
my last fighter got 6 sp a level. I don't get where the op is going. rogues have lots of skills because a lot of their traditional class abilities are now skills. the fighter in no version of dn the game has been known for skills
Barbarians need more skills to survive in their harsh terrain without the benefits of civilization. It's a matter of practice.
Barbarians need more skills to survive in their harsh terrain without the benefits of civilization. It's a matter of practice.
Also the barbarian comes out poorer on damage per round and defenses.
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*Head explodes from the OPs assertion that giving the Rogue d8 somehow makes it step on the fighters toes*
Honest question, have you seen the difference in actual game-play situations or are you just looking at numbers and theory-crafting? I have seen a rogue and fighter level up from 1 to now 8 in the current game im in, and even at level 5 the fighter was out damaging the rogue by a lot. A LOT. And at high levels, Ill take a consistent +*insert large number here* to damage over a variable 10d6 ANY day. Never mind the fact that the sneak attack isn't a given, you have to meet certain (albeit reasonably easy) conditions; the fighter bonus damage is always on. Rogues have more to offer out of combat, but in battle, NO ONE brings the straight pain like a fighter does, in nearly ANY situation.
AC wise, fighters will more than likely be a few points higher, thanks to the "just Full Plate" and (usually) with a higher con have more hit points that the rogue even with his d8.
*Head explodes from the OPs assertion that giving the Rogue d8 somehow makes it step on the fighters toes*
Honest question, have you seen the difference in actual game-play situations or are you just looking at numbers and theory-crafting? I have seen a rogue and fighter level up from 1 to now 8 in the current game im in, and even at level 5 the fighter was out damaging the rogue by a lot. A LOT. And at high levels, Ill take a consistent +*insert large number here* to damage over a variable 10d6 ANY day. Never mind the fact that the sneak attack isn't a given, you have to meet certain (albeit reasonably easy) conditions; the fighter bonus damage is always on. Rogues have more to offer out of combat, but in battle, NO ONE brings the straight pain like a fighter does, in nearly ANY situation.
AC wise, fighters will more than likely be a few points higher, thanks to the "just Full Plate" and (usually) with a higher con have more hit points that the rogue even with his d8.
+1, theory-crafters always like overlooking the circumstantial nature of Sneak Attack damage. There are quite a few circumstance where sneak attacking is impossible.
Fighters are consistent, that is there schtick.
Do not forget Fighter can get Vital Strike, quicker than a rogue can.
Fighter can get all three for 4d# at level 16.
Rogue can only get two for 3d# at level at level 15.
Not to mention other feat that are BAB based, or require fighter x level.
Do not forget Fighter can get Vital Strike, quicker than a rogue can.
Fighter can get all three for 4d# at level 16.
Rogue can only get two for 3d# at level at level 15.Not to mention other feat that are BAB based, or require fighter x level.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.
It only allows a single attack. It was changed from the Beta.
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You can make a single attack that deals incredible damage.
Prerequisites: Improved Vital Strike, Vital Strike, base attack bonus +16.
Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack four times and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.
Rogues can't get this.
It only allows a single attack. It was changed from the Beta.
1st feat = 2d# damage on one attack
2nd feat = 3d# damage on one attack3rd feat = 4d# damage on one attack
Sorry, I was only talking about one attack.
It only allows a single attack. It was changed from the Beta.1st feat = 2d# damage on one attack
2nd feat = 3d# damage on one attack
3rd feat = 4d# damage on one attackSorry, I was only talking about one attack.
Ah, I see. I misread your post, sorry :)
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Considering one of the top DPR classes situationally can do 5d6+3d4+64 non-crit damage in one round at level 5 (all full round attack hits hasted etc), situational damage of +10d6 at level 20 is a joke. This game is all about BAB, and rogue is the poorest of the damaging classes.
Situational damage is very unreliable, I probably average about 1/3 to 1/4 of my potential damage in a round (which still way outdamages a rogue). Melees are often screwed by the single vs full attack discrepancies.
Where are these gloves of the duelist you speak of.
I personally love fighters and it just annoys me that rogues just step on fighters toes all the time.
Really the fact that that Rangers and Rogues got a step up in HD and that they both have loads more skills than fighters just makes me sad for fighters.
How so? I really doubt a rogue can stand and deliver on the front lines. They don't have the AC for it, and sneak attack assumes you have a competent flanking buddy. Even with sneak attack the fighter should be outdamaging the rogue most of the time.
How do you get that much damage at level 5?!Considering one of the top DPR classes situationally can do 5d6+3d4+64 non-crit damage in one round at level 5 (all full round attack hits hasted etc), situational damage of +10d6 at level 20 is a joke. This game is all about BAB, and rogue is the poorest of the damaging classes.
Situational damage is very unreliable, I probably average about 1/3 to 1/4 of my potential damage in a round (which still way outdamages a rogue). Melees are often screwed by the single vs full attack discrepancies.
Here we are doing play by post arena fights which don't simulate entire adventures but is a good way to test out combat prowess. Feel free to enter the next one.
We also have the DPR Olympics where people built classes to see how much damage they can do by comparison. There is even a program here that does all the math for you.
At the end of the day unless the ranger was going against a favored enemy or a paladin was smiting the fighter was king of damage.
I personally think that being able to bring the pain all day long is generally better than having a higher DPR limited times per session/campaign.
How so? I really doubt a rogue can stand and deliver on the front lines. They don't have the AC for it, and sneak attack assumes you have a competent flanking buddy. Even with sneak attack the fighter should be outdamaging the rogue most of the time.
+1.
In my experience a rogue only really gets to the head of the damage pack if all of the following are true:
1) They can full attack every round or almost every round
2) They have more attacks than "normal" -- two weapon fighting feats or at the least rapid shot depending on how they're set up
3) They can sneak attack with every attack (which almost invariably requires party teamwork to be cost effective in the form of flanking/blinding/greater invis/etc., among other things)
4) DR and other special defenses aren't an issue
and 5) They're going after something with poor AC.
And that's a lot of "if"s.
In practice, this has never been a problem in my games. A well made fighter puts out the damage. A well made rogue does many things, but he basically can't match the fighter for damage no matter what build you use. There might be one or two extreme cases that invalidate that, but envelope-pushing builds tend to be dependent on campaign-specific variables in my experience, so I don't worry about those.
Rogues using crit feats and TWF spam attacks can generate a ton of damage on a very situational basis. This is good because it typically means that the rogue can help the martial types eliminate foes that much quicker. That being said even with enhanced HD he's unlikely to have the AC and HPs necessary to absorb damage from frontline monsters for more than a round or two.
The Rogue should be configured for acrobatics so that he can get into flanking position and occasionally go full defense in order to avoid taking as much damage but even though his DPR is respectable he should never forget that he's a squishy target.
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So my ogre fighters have to have gone to college?
Lol.
Well the archtypical fighter went to fightery school and a barbarian grew up in a barbarian tribe.You would think being a learned person they would get more skills, but the barbarians get more.
Roy certainly went to Fighter school. He has a degree and everything.