Per the Core book (and the d20 SRD 3.5 PHB), a ranger in my party wants to research his own spells so he can cast stuff like obscuring mist, faerie fire, etc.
While the rules say you "can" do it, they are pretty vague. How have others ruled on it? Spellcraft DC's, etc...
I was thinking along the lines of spending a feat or a trait? then maybe make the spellcraft Dc the same as/similar to a UMD check.
There's a specific Research feat in Eberron but I think it makes for too much feat bloat and I'd just let anyone research with the same rules if they feel like it.
The thing is you'd need access to a research facility, meaning either a large university or a 500 GP private lab on the same order as an alchemist's lab. Yes, a ranger wouldn't be in a university, but charge him the same to pimp out his hunter's hut with what he needs to figure out the nature magic.
Apart from that, it's a GM call, but I'd say it would take a high Knowledge check of the relevant knowledge and an associated spellcraft check.
Question 1 = Should the Ranger have to spell. If you as DM do not think it fits with the Ranger class, then NO, the ranger can not learn the spell. If you think the spell fits with the ranger class, then yes.
Question 2 = What level should the spell be. For 1-2 level spell, they should remain as 1-2 level spells. 3th-4th level Appropriate spell should also remain as 3-4th level spell.
Exception = Sometime if the spell really fits you might allow a 5th level spell to be lowered to 4th level. Example: Tree Stride is 5th level druid spell but 4th level ranger spell. This even out because a 5th level druid spell can be cast by a druid at 9th level. While a 4th level ranger spell can be cast by a ranger at 13th level at the earliest. Again, only if this really fits the ranger concept in your games.
If the spell sorta fits but sorta does not, well you should up the spell level by 1 or 2 level. (Example= If i allowed a Ranger to learn the spell "Tiny Hut" as a ranger spell, it would be up in spell level to 4th level).
Question 3 = How hard Do you want to make it for the ranger to get the spell as DM ??
If it really fits, and you like it alot, and want all your NPC ranger to also have access to the spell. Then let them have it for free.
It you do not want your NPC or other PC having the spell, then the Player needs to research the spell. Page 219 PF phb, list Independent Research. So 1 week for each spell level the spell has. 1,000 gold for each spell level the spell has.
A knowledge check (spellcraft) is what everyone says.... i do not like that but oh well. If i was DM, i would give the player the choose of that or Knowledge (Nature) check if learning a druid spell. (to each his own).
A failed check = loss of time and gold. On the other hand, for each extra week spend learning the spell +1 to check, for each 1,000 gold spent extra +1 to check. ((This helps with PC who did not invest in Knowledge skills and who did not learn spellcraft or knowledge nature )).
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Anyway thats the way i would reason it out.
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My suggestion would be to follow the guidelines as much as possible for independent research.
Basically, the cost is 1000g per level of the spell to be researched. It also takes at least 1 week, and requires a number of Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) checks.
I would extrapolate on this to mean spells that fit into the class are 1000g and one week, spells that sort of fit are 2000g and two weeks, and spells that really don't fit are 4000g and four weeks or just plain not going to happen. If you really don't want a character to have a particular spell, just give him some divine interference crap. He should take the hint.
Additionally, you need a number of spellcraft and Knowedge (arcana) checks.
I would set the spellcraft check at 20+spell level. If the check fails, the character has to gain another skill rank before trying to learn the spell again. No automatic 10's or 20's. One spellcraft roll and one knowledge: arcana roll a week. Failure means the gold spent in research so far is wasted.
Knowledge: arcana I would set the dc to 20+ spell level as well. Same details on 10's and 20's, and failure results.
I love the idea of researching spells, as it gives a little more personality to what people cast. As far as being inappropriate for the spell list is concerned, my bigger concern as a DM would be appropriateness to the character doing the research and the powers that provide the oomph behind their spells. If they are going to spend that much gold and time on a spell, may as well let it be one that is already existing in the book; only thing I would do is adjust the level as appropriate based on the character and how close it matches his ideals and practices.
thanks for all of the input! the rule states that you can duplicate existing spell effects, so thats where I was getting the learn spells from another list:
"A wizard can also research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one."
then theres apparently a blurb stating divine casters can do the same
i just picke dup a copy of the gamemastery guide, and it pretty much answers all of my questions, but some of the suggestions here were spot on. the GMG says DC20 +2x spell level, with spellcraft and knowledge checks
thanks for all of the input! the rule states that you can duplicate existing spell effects, so thats where I was getting the learn spells from another list:
"A wizard can also research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one."
then theres apparently a blurb stating divine casters can do the same
yar, though I am pretty sure that is meant to mean spells that are on the wizard's list not a spell that is on the cleric list. Thus a wizard can research fireball or create an entirely new spell.
That said it is fine to let a character research a spell from another list, but you should give it very careful thought on why it isnt included on the list to start with. Most spells probably shouldnt be added, other spells only at a higher level than the original, still other spells might need a small adjustment to make them more appropriate to the class.
Instead of letting the player research druid spells you might just assume the ranger can cast druid spells at the same level if they are appropriate. My preference really, I dislike research into divine spells... thematically I find it less fitting, especially if the spells are just something to add to the toolbox rather than a very specific need.
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A player in my game asked if the spells mount or phantom steed could provide something for his Large minions to ride.
Ah, now I'm flashing back to the good old days, when mount scaled up and could (eventually) summon an elephant!
That was some trippy stuff, back in the day.
Depending on how many minions he's got, just a huge mount might not be enough, he might want to research a mass huge mount spell...
Or a mass overland hustle spell that allows 1 target / level to hustle (out of combat only!) without any ill effects for 1 hour / level.
"Uh, Bob, that squad of armored Ogres is *sprinting* at us. Really, really fast..."
Any thoughts on how to handle a failed Spellcraft check in this example?
That sort of fuzzy area is where GM's live and breathe! Something happens that requires some sort of adventure / encounter / skill challenge / slicker-n-snot use of diplomacy to resolve!
Maybe you discover that, to complete this spell, you need ground up firethorn crystals, that only grow near the magma-falls of the Inverted Peaks.
Maybe something is summoned, a living spell-like representation of the force you are attempting to control (using Eberron Living Spell rules?) and you have to capture and defeat it and bind it in place before you can continue your research.
Maybe a genie sorcerer appears and tells you that the spell you are attempting to create has already been created, by him, and that he simply does not allow anyone to copy his spells... unless they are his friends, and friends do each other favors, right? It just so happens, he's got a favor in mind...
thanks for all of the input! the rule states that you can duplicate existing spell effects, so thats where I was getting the learn spells from another list:
"A wizard can also research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one."
then theres apparently a blurb stating divine casters can do the same
I'd be reeeeally careful though!! Realise, you are not talking about creating a new spell, you're altering a class description.
Class spell lists are in there for a reason. Some classes are not meant to have some spells. If the guy wants spells from another spell list, a way go about is to multiclass. If he's trying to extend the class spell list for ranger to include spells from another class, what he's really doing is asking you to make a house rule to hybred Ranger with another class.
Also consider in terms of the story of the game, the spell he wants to add to his class list isn't a new spell, it's actually a spell that's been around a long long time. Many MANY other rangers would have tried to do what he wants to do over the years, and since the spell isn't already on his class' spell list - by definition all of them have failed.
If he wants to do something nobody's ever been able to do before, which also effectivly house rules the class description for Ranger, I'd at least make it the focus of a major quest - maybe build a whole campaign around it. I wouldn't leave it as just some money and some time and a skill check. That approach is more for wizards having trouble buying an existing spell from their class list, or for letting in a totally new and unique spell concept that you find cool and want in your campaign.