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Thanks. I am one of those guilty of assuming that most 3.5 players had happily switched to Pathfinder.I don't want to take this thread off on any more of a tangent than it already has, but suffice to say although the feel is the same the rules are different. Different enough to require double checking everything and requiring conversion of 3.5 material but not different enough to make me feel it was worth taking the time and effort to learn the changes.
PFS is the thing that is making it worth the effort now, but as my preferred setting is Eberron that was written for 3.5 and that is the system for which I have loads of sourcebooks that is the system I will be sticking with to play and run everything else (well I might run Freeport eventually with Pathfnder - I bought the PF Companion, but then I have the M&M, Savage Worlds, 3.5 and 4e companions too, so maybe not :)
Yep, there are a couple of deranged 3.5 holdouts - but never fear, we shall find them, drag them out in the sun and make them an offer they won't be able to refuse. Once they finally swear their loyalty to Pathfinder we will usher a new era, where 3.5 will be rightfully forgotten and Erik Mona will be hailed as a Supreme Overlord of Humanity.
Of course, first we have to eradicate that whole 4e thing, but that's on schedule.
(And now I'm either pulling your leg or being dead serious, or perhaps a little from column A and a little from column B. You'll never know for sure :-)
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I played 4th pretty much as soon as it came out. I GMed it right away. Honestly, it was a GM godsend homebrew-wise. Prep time was vastly reduced and I could do more with less encounter-wise.
Thing is, as a player I was disappointed. I cannot tell you why. Never could put it into words. I just found that character construction had lost something ephemeral. Still can't tell you what that is.
4th is much, much, much more accessible to a new player, at least in my experience. I've introduced new players to 3.x and 4th. 4th was a simpler affair.
I've had fun with both, but given the choice I'll stick with 3.x, and I like the PF changes. I like them a lot.
Honestly, though, I do not want Wizards to stop with 4th, and I do not want 4th to fail. These systems are not mutually exclusive. There is room in the world for both, and in a given gaming group for both. 4th can bring more people into the hobby. It helped me introduce quite a few. Those people can go on to try pathfinder if they want. Or Exalted, or Legend of the 5 Rings, or Shadowrun, etc.
PF is my preferred d20 system, though. Pure personal preference, nothing objective.
Honestly, Shadowrun is my favorite system of all. Still, I'll play all 3, so long as I have a good time. That's the goal, isn't it? Paizo facilitates it. Wizards facilitates it. People may not love everything that either or both do, but there are games to play, and you can have fun playing.
I could care less who's ahead in sales.
The sad part is badmouthing any rpg is just not healthy for the hobby in general. You can hide behind free speech and your right as a customer or whatever rationalizations make you sleep better at night. In the end your not helping the hobby which is already in trouble. I can tell you one thing chances are the person badmouthing any rpg the loudest is the one who gets ignored the most by those in the hobby and as far as I'm concerned rightfully so.
Really? Do you think a negative post about an rpg company is going to amount to much on an rpg messageboard? As it is, it seems to me that the line in the sand is already drawn, so these ad hominem attacks will do nothing to those who are reading them here.
Now, if this were a forum for a more stratified crowd, on a board with a more general topic and theme, I could possibly see your point. But this is a very niche and nuanced crowd; I don't think this discussion will do anything to change the opinions or buying habits of the people on these boards.
I removed some posts that were not the least bit constructive. Flag it and move on, folks.
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The thing is whether it's on this message board or in public or private it does not do the hobby good. What tends to stand out are the ba things not the good things. It's bad enough a few rotten apples gave this board an anti-4e reputation just as you have a smimilar problem with the anti-PF posters on the Wotc boards. So far nothing anyone has posted in defence of such behavior willver make me think it's a good thing for the hobby. Teling me "it's okay no one will really know about it" does not excuse imo bad behavior.
PFS is the thing that is making it worth the effort now, but as my preferred setting is Eberron that was written for 3.5
There is a 4e version, too, as far as I know, so it can't be 3.5e only. Plus, Pathfinder is close enough to 3.5e that even a hypothetical setting that was tailored to 3.5e would work with pathfinder.
The thing is whether it's on this message board or in public or private it does not do the hobby good. What tends to stand out are the ba things not the good things. It's bad enough a few rotten apples gave this board an anti-4e reputation just as you have a smimilar problem with the anti-PF posters on the Wotc boards. So far nothing anyone has posted in defence of such behavior willver make me think it's a good thing for the hobby. Teling me "it's okay no one will really know about it" does not excuse imo bad behavior.
Bad behavior is one thing - stay classy, peoples. But worrying about the strength of the hobby due to people having a back and forth on a messageboard is a little extreme. In all honesty, even with the ongoing recession, the hobby is doing better now than it ever has. Look at the sheer number of third party publishers in the business as opposed to what was available just 15 years ago. One could argue that the passion of the consumers as exhibited on these boards is actually good for the hobby, as opposed to your point of view.
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Really? Do you think a negative post about an rpg company is going to amount to much on an rpg messageboard?
It may not do anything massive, but it can still have effects, and those effects can sometimes ripple out.
Making one player of Pathfinder feel unwelcome here on these forums because another of their favourite games gets unfairly bad mouthed (whether that is D&D 4e, 3.5, Shadowrun, Savage Worlds or FATE) may lead to that player not being enthused about Pathfidner anymore, and if they were their group's GM, that could mean less Pathfinder played, and their FLGS selling one or two less PF books etc.
Being specific to my situation, before Pathfinder RPG came out I GMed PFS for Season Zero. I ran scenarios here in the UK at Conception, Indie Con and for my own local Meetup group. I attended the first PaizoCon UK as a player to support the organised play.
Now when Pathfinder RPG came out, I didn't (and still don't) feel comfortable GMing it as I have not read the rules. And so I also stopped playing and GMing PFS.
But I have gotten bitten by the PFS bug again (I play Living Forgotten Realms as well, but PFS seems to be more popular here, and I am not the biggest fan of FR anyway) and so have just started playing again and will be attending PaizoCon UK this year as well. I have even asked if anyone in our Meetup would be up for GMing some PFS, however although some people seem interested in playing no one is willing to GM.
Now, I am considering whether it would be worth me taking the time to read the PF RPG so that I can once again GM PFS. I am a hellishly slow reader so I am talking about taking a month or two to read the book (as I like to read books cover to cover), time in which I could read a couple of other RPGs & supplements I have sitting on my shelves unread (e.g. Icons, Eberron Campaign Guide, Traveller Little Black Books, Strands of FATE etc).
The benefits of taking that time would be that I would be guaranteed games at conventions if I were GMing as PFS is usually over-subscribed. I would be able to level up my own character even if there are no other scenarios on offer applicable for my character's level. And I would also feel part of a community that already includes some of my old gaming group and some faces I see again and again at local cons.
Now, for me coming to the Paizo forums, which should be an extension of that community, and again and again seeing pot shots being taken at another game I play (in this case 4e, but it would be the same if people were insulting FATE or Savage Worlds, or Doctor Who) makes me feel less inclined to pursue the PF RPG and PFS as a GM.
So in summary, sustained "negative post[s] about an rpg company" could in my case lead to a loss of a potential PFS GM, which in turn would mean a loss of say 18 player spaces at PFS games at an average of 2 or 3 conventions a year in the UK (Conception, UK Games Expo, Continuum and or Paizo Con UK, and possibly Consequences), so about 45 player spaces.
Add to that the liklihood that PFS in my local Meetup group would not happen without me at least starting the ball rolling by GMing the first few times, and that is probably another 15 or so player spaces in a year.
So, potentially 60 player spots in PFS games lost per year, which may mean a loss of some PF RPG players starting to play the game (e.g. no one in my Meetup group plays PF, yet) and thus potential lost sales. And if any of those players would to go on to GM games that could be further lost players.
Its still only a drop in the ocean of the RPG hobby, so I have no delusions that me choosing not to GM PFS (because I feel unwelcome on these forums) is going to make any noticable impact on Paizo or PFS play in general. But annoy enough people and you might see a blip, and in this hobby, especially in this economy, even a blip is not likely welcomed by any game company.
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There is a 4e version, too, as far as I know, so it can't be 3.5e only. Plus, Pathfinder is close enough to 3.5e that even a hypothetical setting that was tailored to 3.5e would work with pathfinder.
PFS is the thing that is making it worth the effort now, but as my preferred setting is Eberron that was written for 3.5
I have actually got the 4e Eberron books as well and am currently wrapping up a campaign in it - it has been fun, but I do still prefer the 3.5 rules to 4e.
And as I have no big issue with the 3.5 system, and would have to convert material to make it work with PF rather than 3.5, I would prefer to simply run Eberron in 3.5.
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Making one player of Pathfinder feel unwelcome here on these forums because another of their favourite games gets unfairly bad mouthed (whether that is D&D 4e, 3.5, Shadowrun, Savage Worlds or FATE) may lead to that player not being enthused about Pathfidner anymore, and if they were their group's GM, that could mean less Pathfinder played, and their FLGS selling one or two less PF books etc.
No offense but if you are less enthusiastic for a game due to the type of negative attitude people show towards, it then I wonder why you went and played 4e at all since 3e/3.5 gets trashed heavily in many areas by 4e supporters.
Heck there are many many 3.5 people that have a hate-on for 4e. I am sure there are many players of other systems you play that hate 3e and/or 4e.
i just think you take it too personally as an internet thing.
i got so peeved at a "friend" during the early days of 4e cause all he would do is trash talk 4e, even knowing I liked it. I finally had enough one day and started yapping back at him. It caused a rift in our "friendship" and he severed communications (he did stuff like deleted me as a facebook friend and things like that).
What was the point of my story? Well. In your private life if someone you are "friends" with is bad mouthing things you like, it is only reasonable to tell them that you do not appreciate it, and ask them to stop.
On the internet, you telling people to stop bad mouthing a game you like or the consequences will be that you will not support a game they like, is not reasonable at all.
Paizo is not making these statements why would you not support their material because other customers are saying things you do not like.
Just because you may walk away does not mean the numbers you used to show their loss would even likely occur. There are people joining at a fairly reasonable rate I assume (and that is all that statement is, assumption). You loss is subsumed in their growth.
Just saying. Not fighting.
And as I have no big issue with the 3.5 system, and would have to convert material to make it work with PF rather than 3.5, I would prefer to simply run Eberron in 3.5.
What would you have to convert, actually?
I never got into Eberron (I got a "EXTREEEME!" vibe off of what was said about it, an instant turn-off), but I used to be a huge FR fan (wotc cured me of that), and other GMs ran some of their Pathfinder campaigns in the Realms. And we used some of the rules elements from the FR books, too.
And I did run all three 3.5 Pathfinder Adventure Paths. I redid some of the more notable end bosses for Pathfinder (and to adjust them to the party), and of course used the monster stats from the Bestiary rather than the Monster Manual whenever the adventures just called from something straight from the books), but other than that, I just ran with it.
I had no problem whatsoever, and we're talking adventure modules here. They're heavier on rules content than campaign setting materials.
Sure, when we played in the FR using PF, we didn't use everything, but that wasn't that different before: Many prestige classes were useless even before PF strengthened the base classes to make them worthwhile all the way up to 20, others were already banned on general principle, and the same goes for other rules materials. The rest you could usually use without much hassle.
After all, the important part of a Campaign Setting is the fluff, not the crunch.
Yep, there are a couple of deranged 3.5 holdouts - but never fear, we shall find them, drag them out in the sun and make them an offer they won't be able to refuse. Once they finally swear their loyalty to Pathfinder we will usher a new era, where 3.5 will be rightfully forgotten and Erik Mona will be hailed as a Supreme Overlord of Humanity.
Of course, first we have to eradicate that whole 4e thing, but that's on schedule.
(And now I'm either pulling your leg or being dead serious, or perhaps a little from column A and a little from column B. You'll never know for sure :-)
Hah. You haven't even caught all the 2e players yet!
(Assumes you were pulling leg.)
I think the plan is to get the 4e heretics first.
The 2e players are all freakishly old now, so we hope that they all die of old age by themselves.
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No offense but if you are less enthusiastic for a game due to the type of negative attitude people show towards, it then I wonder why you went and played 4e at all since 3e/3.5 gets trashed heavily in many areas by 4e supporters.
As previously mentioned I don't tend to visit the WotC forums so perhaps haven't experienced this as much as others have. But on the flip side I therefore don't see as much of the community as I do for PF, be it online or at cons (PFS seems more popular than LFR at the cons I go to).
But yes, if I visited the WotC forums daily as I do the Paizo forums and continually got people trashing 3.5 (or even PF) then I would probably be even less inclined to play 4e (as it is I have found I prefer 3.5 and so am not pursuing 4e that much anyway).
i just think you take it too personally as an internet thing.
Perhaps, and maybe I should grow a thicker skin or make some sarcastic remark rather or add a roll eyes smiley than try to debate the issue.
On the internet, you telling people to stop bad mouthing a game you like or the consequences will be that you will not support a game they like, is not reasonable at all.
I didn't mean it as an ultimatum! :) I was responding to Talonne Hauk's assertion that "a negative post about an rpg company is going to amount to much on an rpg messageboard".
In general I seem to be getting a vibe (rightly or wrongly) from this thread that 4e & WotC bad mouthing (not negative criticism but trash talking) are to be expected in these forums and that people should not challenge such and just let it go.
Paizo is not making these statements why would you not support their material because other customers are saying things you do not like.
For me debating and discussing RPGs is almost as important as playing them - I roleplay for 3.5 hours a week but I spend much more time on the internet reading reviews, checking out forums (ukroleplayers.com, rpg.net, Mongoose, Cubicle 7 etc).
If I don't feel welcome on the official forums for an RPG, I will likely discuss it less, and so overall my interest in that particular RPG will be less. Maybe that is why I am not that much of a fan of 4e, because the WotC forums organisation and software make it difficult for me to engage with that community. Paizo at the moment is my main forum for 3.x discussions and chat.
Just because you may walk away does not mean the numbers you used to show their loss would even likely occur. There are people joining at a fairly reasonable rate I assume (and that is all that statement is, assumption). You loss is subsumed in their growth.
Oh no doubt, which is why I said it would be a drop in the ocean. But even if a loss if exceeded by other growth, that loss occurred.
At present there are no games in my local Meetup group that are Pathfinder RPG, there are three 4e, a 3.5 and even a Thousand suns campaign. The only suggestion of getting a PF RPG game going has been by me (in the form of PFS).
The last time I was in the LGS stocked no Pathfinder stuff, plenty of 4e, Traveller, Doctor Who etc but no PF.
Wouldn't Paizo gain some benefit, even the slightest, from having a pro-Pathfinder GM in the area offering games and directing people to the LGS to ask them to order in PF stuff? Shouldn't Pathfinder and Paizo fans be looking to encourage such GMs rather than potentially turn them off?
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What would you have to convert, actually?
Off the top of my head, the Artificer class would need looking at as apparently crafting in PF doesn't require XP anymore so the Craft Reserve class ability would need tweaking or perhaps even completely replacing. I would need to determine new class skills (probably not hard, but something that would need to be done).
The races should probably all be looked, in terms of ability bonuses if nothing else.
After that, every 3.5 feat, prestige class, and spell may need to require some GM interpretation to work with PF.
The sheer number of threads I see about Eberron conversions indicate that there will be some conversions needed.
I am not saying its impossible or even that difficult. But when I have no issue with the 3.5 system, any effort to convert would likely be uneeded effort.
TBH if I was going to spend the time and effort to convert Eberron to another system it would be to FATE in the form of Legends of Anglerre - I could actually get enthused about statting up Dragon marked Houses and Nations using the organisation rules and coming up with full conversions for Warforged and the like. That to me would be effort that may be worth it as it would bring the Eberron setting to a whole different type of RPG, one which promotes a narrative view, is fairly rules light and moves away from miniatures in combat.
I had no problem whatsoever, and we're talking adventure modules here. They're heavier on rules content than campaign setting materials.
Actually I would imagine Adventures would be easier to convert than setting campaign crunch as apart from maybe the odd new magic item or spell, most of the rules crunch would be stuff like NPCs and monsters where "good enough" eyeball conversions on the fly may be sufficient because they aren't rules that will stick around to the next adventure.
Prestige classes, races, feats and equipement that players will use to make their characters are likely to be the stuff a GM would need to be more careful with as they will be featuring in every scenario once a player chooses it - and woe betide the GM who later needs to "nerf" something he previously allowed because he didn't understand how the mechanic would change in the PF rpg.
After all, the important part of a Campaign Setting is the fluff, not the crunch.
I agree to some degree (I am using my 3.5 Eberron books to support my 4e campaign), but in a crunch focussed game like 3.5 and PF the setting specific crunch is important IMHO.
In less crunch focused games (like the aforementioned FATE) setting specific rules may not be that important and thus assigning a character an Aspect of "Longtooth Shifter from the Shadow Marches" may be all that is required to "convert" the Shifter race into FATE - extra stunts like Heightened Smell and the Jaws variation on the Fists skill are really optional and simply spending a Fate Point and invoking the Aspect can be enough to amke a mechanical difference between races (e.g. a +2 bonus to a Fists attack or allow the character to make an Investgation roll to track a target by scent for a scene).
I think the plan is to get the 4e heretics first.
The 2e players are all freakishly old now, so we hope that they all die of old age by themselves.
I hope you choke on a THAC0 taco.
2E are more elegant game for a more civilised age.
The sales comparison is a bit interesting, but lacks sufficient context.
The factor that is important to our hobby is are sales adequate to sustain the flow of new materials?
Though my preference is Pathfinder over 4E, I don't care if Paizo outsells WotC; if Paizo is not earning enough to continue, then it is a problem.
If WotC is outselling Paizo, but Paizo is raking in enough to keep things going and perhaps grow and prosper, I consider that a huge win.
Fortunately, despite current economic conditions, it seems the latter continues to be the case.
Could someone please think of the bunnies? They need brutal killing, too!
Just for you Kae, someone who shares your hatred of bunnies (or bunny-phobia as I think of it), Enjoy.
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Chief Technical Officer
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In general I seem to be getting a vibe (rightly or wrongly) from this thread that 4e & WotC bad mouthing (not negative criticism but trash talking) are to be expected in these forums and that people should not challenge such and just let it go.
For what it's worth, as a co-owner of Paizo, I personally declared the end of the Edition Wars a year and a half ago. (Everyone won.) Unfortunately, some of the folks out there either haven't yet received word that they need to stop fighting, or else they just refuse to acknowledge it.
No, fighting over editions doesn't help anyone. With anything. For any reason.
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In general I seem to be getting a vibe (rightly or wrongly) from this thread that 4e & WotC bad mouthing (not negative criticism but trash talking) are to be expected in these forums and that people should not challenge such and just let it go.For what it's worth, as a co-owner of Paizo, I personally declared the end of the Edition Wars a year and a half ago. (Everyone won.) Unfortunately, some of the folks out there either haven't yet received word that they need to stop fighting, or else they just refuse to acknowledge it.
No, fighting over editions doesn't help anyone. With anything. For any reason.
I think more interesting question would be, if 4E and PFRPG had a affair what would the baby look like?
Maybe it would look like an updated SAGA, except it could support more things than just Star Wars? I can dream, can't I?
You can. But I feel I have to warn you that I spliced some Savage Worlds DNA in there, too.
For what it's worth, as a co-owner of Paizo, I personally declared the end of the Edition Wars a year and a half ago.
UNACCEPTABLE!
I hope you choke on a THAC0 taco.
Why would I eat one of those? They're decades old! I eat fresh food.
2E are more elegant game for a more civilised age.
I wouldn't call a game that is made up of separate tables for everything and rules being 75% restrictions (the other 25% being extra books with variant rules that circumvent those restrictions) elegant. :P
And those times were definitely not civilised. The oldies always go on about back in the day they were more civilised, but they're just saying that to annoy those young whippersnappers on their lawns! :D
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For good or bad the forum is the public face of the company. If I want to find out about an rpg I might ask at my FLGS or my freinds who play them. More often than not I go to the companies website to do research and lurk to see how topics and subjects are discussed. If I was a total noob coming here I would be somewhat hesistant to post here. Espcially if I was a 4E fan. Seeing 4E aattacked at least once I week is not going to make me want to post more. Or at all.
It's too easy a cop-out to say do not go by what is on the forum. It's Paizo main forum if I cannot use that as some sort of indicator than just what I am supposed to use. People need to stop forgeting it's the digital age. One bad thing on a forum can be posted an read all over the planet. Negative things get remembered and noticed more than good things.
I'm not saying do not ever post any anti-4e stuff. Just do it in threads that are about that. Not in everyone that has 4E and Wotc in it. I'm not trying to single this forum out. I stopped going on the Wotc forums because of two bad experieces. One guy who kept trying to provec that a 3.5 Barbarians Dr/2 was "horribly broken" and another fan who once he found out that I only spoke french but did not write it well started treating me as if I was some lazy anglo who could not be bothered. Not to mention the very public mental breakdown of a fan when he heard what was being done to 4E FR. He went from being the most rational of posters to having some like me on the board wonder if he was mentally unstable in real life.
I rahter spend my time here yet I also wish that posters would try to be more classy both in terms of 4E and Pathfinder.
I think more interesting question would be, if 4E and PFRPG had a affair what would the baby look like?In general I seem to be getting a vibe (rightly or wrongly) from this thread that 4e & WotC bad mouthing (not negative criticism but trash talking) are to be expected in these forums and that people should not challenge such and just let it go.For what it's worth, as a co-owner of Paizo, I personally declared the end of the Edition Wars a year and a half ago. (Everyone won.) Unfortunately, some of the folks out there either haven't yet received word that they need to stop fighting, or else they just refuse to acknowledge it.
No, fighting over editions doesn't help anyone. With anything. For any reason.
*Does his best Victor (Underworld) impersonation*
Abomination!!!
Are people still making New Coke references and claiming D&D is dead any day now? Because New Coke lasted like three months
New Coke was made from its introduction in 1985 until 2002 (the name was changed from "Coke" to "Coke II" in 1992). But, hey, three months, seventeen years, it's all the same, right?
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i just think you take it too personally as an internet thing.Perhaps, and maybe I should grow a thicker skin or make some sarcastic remark or add a roll eyes smiley rather than try to debate the issue.
I think now I will do none of the above, for Vic Wertz has provided me with a better alternative!
For what it's worth, as a co-owner of Paizo, I personally declared the end of the Edition Wars a year and a half ago. (Everyone won.)
Thanks for that link, I have saved it and I think if I encounter any 4e (or 3.5 or PF) bashing on these forums (and maybe other places too) I will simply reply to the poster with that link. Hopefully that will get the message across without taking threads off on tangents like this one.
:)
Thanks for that link, I have saved it and I think if I encounter any 4e (or 3.5 or PF) bashing on these forums (and maybe other places too) I will simply reply to the poster with that link. Hopefully that will get the message across without taking threads off on tangents like this one.
It's not that I hate the existence of 4E and wish it to burn in the abyss.
It's just that I was really excited for 4E and was very very disappointed in the outcome. It was very sad! And when I occasionally feel like unburdening, someone yells at me.
It's not helping!
*sniff*
2E are more elegant game for a more civilised age.
Late eighties more civilised? That I got my first computer then does not make it more civilised.
Chess is a much more elegant game, and from an arguably more civilized age as well. ;)
If by more civilised you mean that people used fresh leaves and grass for tissue paper and killed themselves with sharp pieces of low-quality iron instead of intercontinental missiles.
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It's just that I was really excited for 4E and was very very disappointed in the outcome. It was very sad! And when I occasionally feel like unburdening, someone yells at me.
It's not helping!
*sniff*
I can understand the need to unburden, in which case if you need to do this on the internet just start a new thread and clearly mark it as such with warnings that not all content is reasoned or even rational :)
Paizo gets my money now. WotC decided they didn't want it anymore.
It's not an edition war for me, it's about supporting the company that supports their products better.
Thanks Paizo.
...The 2e players are all freakishly old now, so we hope that they all die of old age by themselves.
Just so you know, not all the 2E players are really old, and I played it since I was 12. I don't play 2E any more, and switched 3.0/3.5 when it came out, now Pathfinder. I'm only 36, but I'm not a hold out. That's all, carry on! :)
For good or bad the forum is the public face of the company. If I want to find out about an rpg I might ask at my FLGS or my freinds who play them. More often than not I go to the companies website to do research and lurk to see how topics and subjects are discussed. If I was a total noob coming here I would be somewhat hesistant to post here. Espcially if I was a 4E fan. Seeing 4E aattacked at least once I week is not going to make me want to post more. Or at all.
It's too easy a cop-out to say do not go by what is on the forum. It's Paizo main forum if I cannot use that as some sort of indicator than just what I am supposed to use. People need to stop forgeting it's the digital age. One bad thing on a forum can be posted an read all over the planet. Negative things get remembered and noticed more than good things.
I'm not saying do not ever post any anti-4e stuff. Just do it in threads that are about that. Not in everyone that has 4E and Wotc in it. I'm not trying to single this forum out. I stopped going on the Wotc forums because of two bad experieces. One guy who kept trying to provec that a 3.5 Barbarians Dr/2 was "horribly broken" and another fan who once he found out that I only spoke french but did not write it well started treating me as if I was some lazy anglo who could not be bothered. Not to mention the very public mental breakdown of a fan when he heard what was being done to 4E FR. He went from being the most rational of posters to having some like me on the board wonder if he was mentally unstable in real life.
I rahter spend my time here yet I also wish that posters would try to be more classy both in terms of 4E and Pathfinder.
*sigh*
Why are you adding fuel to a fire by calling a person "Mentally Unstable"?
I always imagined 4e fans posting on PF forums being akin to those guys who always ended up at the Blue Oyster Bar in Police Academy series. Not exactly unwelcome but never really blending in with the crowd, either.
To nitpick: actually, those guys usually ended up blending in quite well, at least in the first film anyway. =]
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I can understand the need to unburden, in which case if you need to do this on the internet just start a new thread and clearly mark it as such with warnings that not all content is reasoned or even rational :)It's just that I was really excited for 4E and was very very disappointed in the outcome. It was very sad! And when I occasionally feel like unburdening, someone yells at me.
It's not helping!
*sniff*
Agreed and seconded. I can understand and respect that some posters dislike 4E and need to ne vocal about. Just start a thread about it. Then again as long as the 4E thread is a constructive thread and just no a plain old 4E bashfest you should be fine.
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I always imagined 4e fans posting on PF forums being akin to those guys who always ended up at the Blue Oyster Bar in Police Academy series. Not exactly unwelcome but never really blending in with the crowd, either.To nitpick: actually, those guys usually ended up blending in quite well, at least in the first film anyway. =]
My mistake, in the first film those were 2e fans =)
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*sigh*
Why are you adding fuel to a fire by calling a person "Mentally Unstable"?
I do my best to avoid that but all I can say is you just had to be there. If you were I can guarantee you would be agreeing with me. Seeing someone lose it in a public place even a forum is not pretty. How else do you explain someone going from being one of the most rational posters on the Wotc board to vitrollic frothing at the mouth insulting the main 4E FR dev at every opprtunity. While ignoring other posters attempts to calm him/her down. Sometimes you just cannot sugar coat or be politcally correct about the way someone acts.
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I always imagined 4e fans posting on PF forums being akin to those guys who always ended up at the Blue Oyster Bar in Police Academy series. Not exactly unwelcome but never really blending in with the crowd, either.
C'mon give me some credit. I can dance better than the guys from the first movie.
It in all seriousness it all depends on the attitude of the majority of the board. So far beyond a very few rotten apples I do and did feel welcomed here. Our hobby is in trouble. Going around and holding up one nose at other posters rpg choices is just plain silly. I want the hobby to survive so in the end who care what version of D&D anyone plays as long as has fun. And I will be honest to me anyway it shows how insecure and how little faith a person has in PF if they feel the need to validate PF by insulting 4E. Imo their both decent games. Not perfect but I'm not going to insult either.
Your not going to validate how good PF is by insulting 4E. Once you do that for any rpg I'm no longer interested in listening to you. Why would I or anyone else. We have better things to do and spend time on better things than listening to negativity in any form.
...The 2e players are all freakishly old now, so we hope that they all die of old age by themselves.Just so you know, not all the 2E players are really old, and I played it since I was 12. I don't play 2E any more, and switched 3.0/3.5 when it came out, now Pathfinder. I'm only 36, but I'm not a hold out. That's all, carry on! :)
Either one of us is having a bad math day, or you started playing 2e a couple years before it came out :)
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I went through some gaming nostaglia awhile back and wanted to run 2E. After reading through the rules again 2E is still a very serviceable and decent game imo. Just that to me it felt like the designers were "the RAW and nothing but the RAW". Or if you decided to take something that was non-standard say a monster race or heaven forbid a Drow the system did it's best to penalize you. Taking a Drow in 2E was imo a death sentence as a character. Who can forget how human centric it was. If all you can do a second time around to make humans more interesting is to penalize the other races your not going to make me want to play one. At least with 3.5 and up humans have an anctual beyond no level limits. In the end i may run 2E only with the right group and once I'm tired of both PF and 4E.