Even more shocking is the excuses they'll use to justify why their predictions end up wrong, like 'WotC included Gamma World in the D&D numbers so they should be lower'. It's like the people who claim the Rapture is coming on May 25th, and the last time was a fluke due to 'miscalculations'.People really want to see Pathfinder outsell D&D it seems.On the Paizo forums? SHOCKING!Restated:
Paizo fans on a Paizo forum championing the success of a Paizo product dominating a competitor's product?
Not really shocking at all.
I've participated in a number of edition-war-esque threads on this forum, but it really is, I don't know, tasteless? I suppose to lambaste those fans for their fandom on said forum.
Whatever. It's never going to end, from either side.
Bye.
It should be noted that lumping Gamma World with D&D was Icv2's choice. These aren't sales figures released by WotC or anything. I wonder if they chose to do so based on retailer perceptions or their own.
It should be noted that lumping Gamma World with D&D was Icv2's choice. These aren't sales figures released by WotC or anything. I wonder if they chose to do so based on retailer perceptions or their own.
Similarly with the various supplements by either company - are they separate sales? Are they reporting value or number of units sold? I don't really see the fascination with this survey. If I buy an AP, a module and the PF Core that may or may not count as three sales of pathfinder. Buying the player's handbook the monster manual and the DM's guide may be three sales of D&D. On value spent this would be a 'win' for DnD. If the PF player then subscribes to a bunch of Paizo lines but the DnD player doesn't subscribe to DDI then it's a 'win' for Paizo. The survey doesn't include things bought from Paizo direct and (as I understand the figures) it doesn't include sales through Borders/other mainstream outlets.
I'm mildly curious as to whether there are more or less Pathfinder or DnD players and more curious as to where new RPG converts are going. This survey doesn't seem to provide any meaningful insight into those questions at all.
The thing to remember is this isn't totaling sales numbers at all. It is looking at how well products are doing in hobby stores. What this report is really for is to tell game store owners what they should be stocking. As the Black Diamond guy says, a smart owner doesn't play sides. He stocks what sells.
Despite what some people with grudges think, having several strong competitors is good for the market. I'd rather D&D and Pathfinder have strong sales in an increasing market than have one or the other 'win' and triumph in a declining market. I want to see good hobby stores succeed, and not relegate all RPG sales to Amazon or other online retailers alone.
Forget all this talk about edition wars. The only one that's winning? Me. Duh!
I think that most of the people who still think D&D is a tool of Satan didn't even notice there *was* a movie.Is Not D&D some crappy movie?Sadly, yes. :P
That is a good thing, right? I mean, which would you rather be associated with? :P
That is a good thing, right? I mean, which would you rather be associated with? :P
Given a choice? Satan. Totally. He seems like he'd be fun at parties. Except for the fact that he'd be the jerkwad always bringing brandy to put in the wapatuli making it taste like cough syrup. 'Cos he's evil and stuff.
The thing to remember is this isn't totaling sales numbers at all. It is looking at how well products are doing in hobby stores.
When I read this statement I thought... "I don't buy my Pathfinder books and PDFs from a hobby store. I buy them from Paizo. I am not in these numbers."
I am guessing a lot of people in the forums also get there books from Paizo directly too. Therefore, Icv2 numbers are well and good but they are not the whole picture.
I don’t care if Pathfinder is out selling D&D 4e or not. In my book, Pathfinder is the better game then D&D 4e. I am a family man with a job and I find time to GM and play in two Pathfinder games. That says a lot about how much I like this system.
I would like to say “thank you” to Paizo for making a great product.
What do people outside the industry see D&D as. Here is what I hear from non-RPG players.
1) D&D is what those 'geeks' played in HS...
2) D&D is a waste of time...it is timwe to grow up...stop making make believe.
3) D&D is Satan.
4) Is Not D&D some crappy movie?
5) Is it not some computer game? (and this was before there was any direct D&D computer game).
You forgot one more option to make it a proper 1d6 randomized table. I'd say #6 is:
6) Isn't D&D where you dress up in old time clothes and run around with a card board sword?
[rambling]
On one hand, I understand the "loss" of D&D would mean that some hobby stores that only carry D&D will stop carrying RPGs all together. But they are not ordering anything but D&D anyways so why does that matter. I mean, that is an extremely short sighted view, since those gamers will most likely at some point move away and shop at a new game store. And if that gamer is not exposed to the gateway game of D&D, it is quite possible that they will never come to RPGs.
But at the same time, most of us listened to Michael Jackson in the 80's. When he went ... well ... we all listened to started listening to other music. Now there is no King of some genre of music anymore. We all bought our tapes at Tower Records. We now buy our music from the artist or iTunes or Amazon or download it from bitTurrent or whatever. But despite the changes, the industry survives. It is drastically changed, but there is still a music industry.
And in the past 10 years, the gaming industry has drastically changed. Most bought their games in a store. Now online is a major component. Magazines were very much the norm. Now they are online deals mostly. And we'll continue to change and adapt if D&D gets shelves by Wizards. That's the way of business and that's the way these are these days. Adapt to the latest major change or go under.
[/rambling]
My biggest concern if D&D were to go away (which it isn't but this is an interesting mental exercise), would be the loss of RPG visibility in major chain stores and book stores. Maybe the PF intro game will give Paizo more visibility in these areas, but until then D&D is the majority of what is available.
Are people still making New Coke references and claiming D&D is dead any day now? Because New Coke lasted like three months, and I saw both those claims the three years ago that 4e first came out at.
I mean, I guess if you state it's due to happen any day every day, you're bound to be correct sooner or later.
I do find it amusing that the these numbers that were declared as utterly and unquestioningly true last quarter are now suddenly called into doubt the second they no longer follow paradigm.
I think that most of the people who still think D&D is a tool of Satan didn't even notice there *was* a movie.Is Not D&D some crappy movie?Sadly, yes. :P
Which is probably a good thing. Their sanity is already questionable and its not fair to inflict that sort of mental trauma on the mentally ill.
Are people still making New Coke references and claiming D&D is dead any day now? Because New Coke lasted like three months, and I saw both those claims the three years ago that 4e first came out at.
I mean, I guess if you state it's due to happen any day every day, you're bound to be correct sooner or later.
I do find it amusing that the these numbers that were declared as utterly and unquestioningly true last quarter are now suddenly called into doubt the second they no longer follow paradigm.
When did anyone claim D&D is dead anytime soon?
I'm glad to see that D&D 4E hasn't had the same level of acceptance and success as 3E. Goes to prove that it isn't as good a game to as many a D&D gamer. So I don't have to listen to 4E fans like yourself that think 4E can do no wrong. To you it may be better than 4E, to me it is an abomination that destroyed the uniqueness the D&D game had.
Sorry, it's not as good as 3E. It split the community. And when such things happen, opportunity presents itself. Paizo took advantage. Kudos to them for saving a game a lot of still enjoyed playing versus WotC attempting to force feed us 4E.
So maybe you go have fun with your favorite edition of D&D and I'll stay here and have fun with my favorite edition. We can leave it at that.
All I know for certain, and this isn't even debateable, Paizo's Adventure Paths are many times better than WotC's 4E modules. Not even a close contest even if 4E sales are doing well.
May Paizo keep on being successful.
|
The problem is that while PF is doing well kow the trust imo is if ot can sustain such success for at least another three years. For me a true success of an rpg is if it can maintain sales for at least five years or more and still be proftable. And despite very purposeful naive clains to the contrary Paizo wants to make a quality rpg and also want it to be profitable.
Either way I like both 4E and PF. I find both have flaws and disadvantages. I am not as huge a fan of 4E and PF is definately not the second coming of D&D. I still do not understand posters who have to come on this board and trash talk both. I'ts not like your doing any a public service. And stop with the "Wotc forced 4E on us" comments. No one forced any rpg on anyone. Did the wotc ninjas break into your home and tie you to a chair pry open your eyelids and force you top read 4E no. Anyone else see how silly that is.
correct me if I am wrong but is trash talking 4E against the forum rules now.
Three things.
One: Cite your sources if you're going to say 4e isn't "as good of a game." Show me how 4e's sale prices in comparison to 3e has nothing to do with the massive changes in the economy.
Second: Stop acting like this is some bizarre you vs me deal. I play 4e...and Pathfinder, and 3e, and, hell, 2e! The only one making this about edition vs edition is you.
And third: If 4e is bad because it split the community, what about PF? Pathfinder split the remaining 3e community quite a bit too, you know. Do they just not count?
|
|
And third: If 4e is bad because it split the community, what about PF? Pathfinder split the remaining 3e community quite a bit too, you know. Do they just not count?
My FLGs has two groups who are getting more and more angry that they no longer can get 3.5 book as easily as before. They refuse to switch to Pathfinder. So it's not only 4E buit also PF that has done some damage to the community. But as usual posters who like a certain game close thier eyes to the flaws of an rpg they like.
My FLGs has two groups who are getting more and more angry that they no longer can get 3.5 book as easily as before. They refuse to switch to Pathfinder. So it's not only 4E buit also PF that has done some damage to the community. But as usual posters who like a certain game close thier eyes to the flaws of an rpg they like.
I'm fairly certain that would be true with or without Pathfinder. How many d20 books were released between 4Es release and Pathfinder?
Forget all this talk about edition wars. The only one that's winning? Me. Duh!
Winning!
Are people still making New Coke references and claiming D&D is dead any day now? Because New Coke lasted like three months, and I saw both those claims the three years ago that 4e first came out at.
I mean, I guess if you state it's due to happen any day every day, you're bound to be correct sooner or later.
I do find it amusing that the these numbers that were declared as utterly and unquestioningly true last quarter are now suddenly called into doubt the second they no longer follow paradigm.
When did anyone say D&D was dead? Most of the discussion was over the sales comparisons and a bit about if it would be bad or not if D&D were to suddenly stop production, not that it would.
I'm glad to see that D&D 4E hasn't had the same level of acceptance and success as 3E. Goes to prove that it isn't as good a game to as many a D&D gamer. So I don't have to listen to 4E fans like yourself that think 4E can do no wrong.
No more than anyone else has to listen to people like yourself (regardless of what you may be a fan of) who think that 4e can do no right.
Support your game of choice without feeling the need to justify it by tearing someone else's game down.
|
|
And third: If 4e is bad because it split the community, what about PF? Pathfinder split the remaining 3e community quite a bit too, you know. Do they just not count?
Yeah, and that pissed me off no end and has left me with more dislike for Paizo than any I felt for WotC. I felt Pathfinder has done more to kill off 3.5 than 4e ever did.
Yet I can try to recognise that my dislike is somewhat irrational, and that Paizo are not deserving of it - they made a good business decision without any malice to the likes of me, even if I did come off worse for it (in terms of being able to find 3.5 players and GMs).
I try to be subjective about the PF RPG, praising the improvements it made over 3.5, whilst civilly criticising the changes I did not like. I continue to buy Paizo products like Campaign Map Packs and Flip Mats despite my dislike, and I also have bitten the bullet and started playing in PFS again at conventions (a case of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em") as it at least scratches the 3.x itch I get (I have even bought a few PDFs).
So whilst I may suffer nerd rage against Paizo, I try to recognise that it is nerd rage, and attempt to be civil, not trash talk PF, and keep an open mind about both the company and the RPG.
I just wish some Paizo / Pathfinder fans behaved the same in regards to WotC and D&D 4e. Every time I hear a "WotC betrayed us" "4e is just a board game" or "I hope D&D dies" comment it just makes me want to play 4e more and distance myself from the Pathfinder RPG.
So please, by all means big up Pathfinder and Paizo, civilly discuss the pros and cons of 4e and how Wotc has done in terms of marketing and business strategy, but please avoid the WotC / 4e trash talking because you do Paizo and the Pathfinder RPG no favours.
Given a choice? Satan. Totally. He seems like he'd be fun at parties. Except for the fact that he'd be the jerkwad always bringing brandy to put in the wapatuli making it taste like cough syrup. 'Cos he's evil and stuff.
That is a good thing, right? I mean, which would you rather be associated with? :P
"Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste..."
(Just in case anyone doesn't know - The Rolling Stones 'Sympathy for the Devil')
|
Are people still making New Coke references and claiming D&D is dead any day now? Because New Coke lasted like three months, and I saw both those claims the three years ago that 4e first came out at.
I mean, I guess if you state it's due to happen any day every day, you're bound to be correct sooner or later.
I do find it amusing that the these numbers that were declared as utterly and unquestioningly true last quarter are now suddenly called into doubt the second they no longer follow paradigm.
Actually, last quarter we were discussing the fact that ICv2 didn't include all sales. In fact that has been a part of the discussion since the report that Pathfinder and D&D were tied for 1st place in Q3 of last year.
Also, you were corrected on the 'dead any day now' comment once already in this thread. The only person saying that, in any context, seems to be you.
If someone was "winning" besides the fans, it would be us 3rd party publishers. Those of us that do this as a full time job would have to get a real job otherwise. And those of us that day jobs (like me) have hope that someday we'll be able to join their full time ranks.
So thank you Paizo. And thank you fans for being as passionate and as supportive as you are.
Round and round we go again "4E kills puppies, Pathfinder explodes kittens my poor game system is no longer supported by the company that made it so I will hate a different company"
We can all build our strawmen and shove them in a big wickerman and set on fire and dance around it naked with goats. All the while getting off on being a super defender of my chosen game and having to rush in any time some A-hat looking to stir up some shyte taps out some negitive nonsense about a GAME...
Back in the real world people are getting their lives back in order after civil uprisings, floods, cyclones, earthquakes, tsunamis and meltdowns. Those people have something to complain and b$~@! and get all riled up about.... YOU DONT if you are just whining about something some clown said on the intarwebz.
Stop being A hats stop turning threads into Edition morasses.. you dont need to rush to the defence of a game when somebody says something wrong or negative or pro oneside......
The majority of people are smart enough to know when A-hats are talking through their arses and looking to get a laugh out of you stepping on up to defend your game.
If a edition war like post is made, I can accurately predict who will respond and roughly the time it will take for the response to be made... I can also accurately predict who will turn up and provoke the easily provoked and get their jollies pushing the crud that the thread has turned into because it is fun for them.
All those people are in this thread...
So please just shut up about who has the bigger shlong and let me read the interesting facts about how the game system is selling.
Dont get this thread locked by pushing it into the stinking sewer of the edition wars ..... sod off if you don't have something relevant to the thread to say.
|
And third: If 4e is bad because it split the community, what about PF? Pathfinder split the remaining 3e community quite a bit too, you know. Do they just not count?Yeah, and that pissed me off no end and has left me with more dislike for Paizo than any I felt for WotC. I felt Pathfinder has done more to kill off 3.5 than 4e ever did.
Yet I can try to recognise that my dislike is somewhat irrational, and that Paizo are not deserving of it - they made a good business decision without any malice to the likes of me, even if I did come off worse for it (in terms of being able to find 3.5 players and GMs).
I try to be subjective about the PF RPG, praising the improvements it made over 3.5, whilst civilly criticising the changes I did not like. I continue to buy Paizo products like Campaign Map Packs and Flip Mats despite my dislike, and I also have bitten the bullet and started playing in PFS again at conventions (a case of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em") as it at least scratches the 3.x itch I get (I have even bought a few PDFs).
So whilst I may suffer nerd rage against Paizo, I try to recognise that it is nerd rage, and attempt to be civil, not trash talk PF, and keep an open mind about both the company and the RPG.
I just wish some Paizo / Pathfinder fans behaved the same in regards to WotC and D&D 4e. Every time I hear a "WotC betrayed us" "4e is just a board game" or "I hope D&D dies" comment it just makes me want to play 4e more and distance myself from the Pathfinder RPG.
So please, by all means big up Pathfinder and Paizo, civilly discuss the pros and cons of 4e and how Wotc has done in terms of marketing and business strategy, but please avoid the WotC / 4e trash talking because you do Paizo and the Pathfinder RPG no favours.
I find some of your comments interesting. Do you, DigitalMage, frequent the WotC boards? I am not asking who you are there, just curious if you do.
If you don't then I suggest you probably would be happier over there. They are more of a mind like you (love their 4e and for many many posters dislike 3.5/PF/Paizo).
If you do then you know that mentioning paizo/PF/3e will eventually find you under attack. You do not have to disparage 4e or make any claims that you prefer editions other than 4e. There are people there are the same as some people here (I guess. I have not really seen it but I keep my exposure to the 4e section here to a minimum. I have dropped 4e and am happy keeping it that way)
I left 4e not for a hate of the system but for a hate of the practices of the publisher. I will defend the system if people are making unreasonable claims against it, but will never defend that company again. Some can still call it nerdrage, I don't. I see it as my right as a consumer.
|
On the other hand, complaining that bad Paizo and evil Pathfinder killed off 3.5 and you have *oh now that hurts* play PFS in order to get some 3.5-related gaming is silly, because the company that pulled the plug on 3.5 was called, what was it again, Wizards of the Coast?
His complaint, though, is that Pathfinder FURTHER fragmented the groups that preferred 3.5. Of course, it's not alone in doing this...
FantasyCraft
True20
Arcana Unearthed/Evolved
3rd Era
Trailblazer
probably others I can't think of...
|
|
I find some of your comments interesting. Do you, DigitalMage, frequent the WotC boards? I am not asking who you are there, just curious if you do.
NOt very often at all to be honest (and I go by the same name there too). I find the forum software a pain in the arse and there are just too many subforums for me to easily navigate.
If you don't then I suggest you probably would be happier over there. They are more of a mind like you (love their 4e and for many many posters dislike 3.5/PF/Paizo).
I don't actually love 4e - its not a bad system and there are quite a few things I do like about it, but overall I prefer 3.5. I am running a 4e campaign now because I offered the player the option of 3.5 or 4e and one player preferred 4e with the others happy either way. After this campaign my next D&D campaigns will likely be 3.5.
So the WotC forums, as well as being a being not to my liking in terms of software and organisation, don't offer me too much other than the Previous Editions forum.
Here at the Paizo forums there is a small 4e forum that I can actually peruse, a 3.5 forum and also of course forums for PF which are of interest to me as I once again play in PFS.
I have recently joined the 3.5 Private Sanctuary forums but the traffic there is low.
If you do then you know that mentioning paizo/PF/3e will eventually find you under attack. You do not have to disparage 4e or make any claims that you prefer editions other than 4e. There are people there are the same as some people here
And the thing is, if people started talking b%#&@+*s about Pathfinder or Paizo on there I would probably be challenging those views just as I "defend" 4e here. I just don't come across that stuff because I don't frequent those forums.
I left 4e not for a hate of the system but for a hate of the practices of the publisher. I will defend the system if people are making unreasonable claims against it, {/quote]
That is cool, glad to hear it.but will never defend that company again. Some can still call it nerdrage, I don't. I see it as my right as a consumer.
Don't get me wrong, I am not a big fan of the actions WotC took - initially I was annoyed by the announcement of 4e because I had barely got into 3.5 (but then I saw that many weren't converting and so was happy there would be 3.5 players and GMs still about). I really didn't like them pulling PDFs - I still have loads of 3.5 books unread but am reading a Pathfinder PDF right now because PDFs are more convenient to me.
But overall whilst I didn't like some of what WotC did, I don't believe they did it out of malice, they haven't done anything like exploiting slave labour sweat shops to create their products (AFAIK) or tested their products on animals, so I don't feel it necessary to boycott the company completely.
I can understand some that may feel that way, but as I have more an attitude of indifference for WotC, it would be more a case of cutting off my nose to spite my face if I boycotted them completely - I still collect the Dungeon Tiles! :)
I think that most of the people who still think D&D is a tool of Satan didn't even notice there *was* a movie.Is Not D&D some crappy movie?Sadly, yes. :P
Movies... 2 craptacular movies...
Dundgeons & Dragons (2000) and Dungeons & Dragons:Wrath of the Dragon God (2005)
My FLGs has two groups who are getting more and more angry that they no longer can get 3.5 book as easily as before. They refuse to switch to Pathfinder. So it's not only 4E buit also PF that has done some damage to the community. But as usual posters who like a certain game close thier eyes to the flaws of an rpg they like.
Of course they can't find the 3.5 books as easily as before... they're all out of print. I'd find it hard to blame Paizo for that, though. As soon as WotC stopped supporting 3.5, its days were numbered as a profit-making concern. What publisher, 3pp included, is going to publish material for a game whose core rules can't be bought anew and whose used market will only erode as materials wear out?
And because the OGL prevented certain types of information from being copied from the original rules, any and every new publication including those rules required there to be at least some changes, some new content, to make it a playable game. So any situation in which a publisher wanted to keep a version of 3.5 in print would have led to minor (at least) differences in the system.
I can understand if people don't care for Pathfinder as a replacement for 3.5 because of specific changes they don't favor. But I don't agree that Paizo has damaged the 3.5 community as a whole. I believe it has enhanced it with new ideas while still being largely compatible, realizing part of the great potential of the OGL.
Given a choice? Satan. Totally. He seems like he'd be fun at parties. Except for the fact that he'd be the jerkwad always bringing brandy to put in the wapatuli making it taste like cough syrup. 'Cos he's evil and stuff.
That is a good thing, right? I mean, which would you rather be associated with? :P
Quite the opposite I suspect. Iirc, in the early days of Judaism Satan was God's right-hand angel responsible for handing out brutal justice to those who broke God's rules. That makes him the kind of guy who'd turn up to the party, switch the music off, confiscate your drinks and then send you all to bed.
And that's assuming he didn't just destroy your house whilst you were all partying inside...
|
|
On the other hand, complaining that bad Paizo and evil Pathfinder killed off 3.5
I did not label Paizo as "bad" or Pathfinder as "evil" you did that - quite why you would wish to miscontrue my post like that I am unsure - perhaps you would like to explain?
Ironically the point I was trying to make, perhaps not very well it seems, is that despite being adversely affected by Paizo's business decisions, and despite feeling anger at what happened to the 3.5 player base because of those business decisions, I specifically do not label Paizo as evil or wish their company to fail. I specifically do not "trash talk" the Pathfinder RPG or wish it to fail.
I think Paizo were very canny in their business strategy in bringing out the Pathfinder RPG and their open play tests and their PDF pricing strategy. And even though I am not the biggest PF RPG fan I won't boycott them because I have lost out on 3.5 players due to the success of PF. Instead I support them by buying Map Packs and Flip Mats that I can use in 3.5 and 4e games, and I buy some PF PDFs so I can play PFS.
and you have *oh now that hurts* play PFS in order to get some 3.5-related gaming is silly, because the company that pulled the plug on 3.5 was called, what was it again, Wizards of the Coast?
Admittedly WotC ceased production on 3.5 material and brought out 4e, but 3rd parties could still support 3.5 after that time, and more importantly due to the differences between 3.5 and 4e a lot of 3.5 players were sticking with 3.5 including my weekly group.
Had 4e been more accepted by 3.5 fans, so that they all pretty much converted over, my frustration over 4e may not have subsided so quickly and I may feel that WotC did more to kill 3.5.
However, I was directly responding to a post by ProfessorCirno who brought up the issue of "Pathfinder split[ing] the remaining 3e community".
Two GMs in my weekly group did, after not converting to 4e, move to Pathfinder. And while I gave it a go, I knew that if I wanted to play in a 3.5 game I would need to look elsewhere - that and other reasons led to me leaving that group.
And now when I go to conventions the amount of 3.5 games on offer versus PF has definately swung in favour of PF, and I do wonder if PF hadn't come out would there have been more 3.5 games? Probably less than previously, but likely more than with PF in the mix.
Anyway...
The point to my post was to show that WotC aren't the only company whose business decisions and actions have been cause for nerd rage, but that in the end we should realise it is just "nerd rage"; something somewhat irrational and not a real reason to wish a company to fail or a game to die and that despite our feelings we would do better to try to act rationally and be balanced in our views.
|
|
His complaint, though, is that Pathfinder FURTHER fragmented the groups that preferred 3.5. Of course, it's not alone in doing this...
FantasyCraft
True20
Arcana Unearthed/Evolved
3rd Era
Trailblazerprobably others I can't think of...
True, but none have been so commercially successful (and thus as successful in converting the 3.5 player base) as Pathfinder. Which is obviously a good thing for Paizo :)
|
|
Of course they can't find the 3.5 books as easily as before... they're all out of print. I'd find it hard to blame Paizo for that, though. As soon as WotC stopped supporting 3.5, its days were numbered as a profit-making concern. What publisher, 3pp included, is going to publish material for a game whose core rules can't be bought anew and whose used market will only erode as materials wear out?
Originally, when Paizo announced their intention to create the Pathfinder RPG in order to keep the rule in print I was hoping it would be just that - the 3.5 system still in print, albeit without the IP of WotC, a re-wording of the XP chart so the values could remain the same, and clarification of certain rules.
I was imagining groups of players where some used the 3.5 PHB and others the PF RPG core rulebook.
I imagined as Paizo's bread and butter was adventures and setting sourcebooks that not everyone needing to buy the core rules was not an issue - it would be an enabler to sell the stuff that made money.
But Paizo I guess wanted to try to re-capture some of those fans who had left 3.5 due to issues with the system and so made changes that meant 3.5 PHB & PF RPG books being used interchangeably could not happen.
But I don't agree that Paizo has damaged the 3.5 community as a whole. I believe it has enhanced it with new ideas while still being largely compatible, realizing part of the great potential of the OGL.
If you change "3.5" to "3.x" in that quote I would agree with you 100%.
My name is Ed, and I approve of this thread.
...I knew that if I wanted to play in a 3.5 game I would need to look elsewhere...
Out of curiosity, do you mind sharing why this is so? They hardly seem different "enough" to me to make the switch more than a speed bump. Don't get me wrong, there are lots of little changes (some of which I'm still finding), but the overall feel is nearly identical (to me).
4E kills puppies, Pathfinder explodes kittens
Could someone please think of the bunnies? They need brutal killing, too! Richard can't do al the work by himself. Could maybe the Third Party Publishers get in on that? We're all counting on you!
Back in the real world people are getting their lives back in order after civil uprisings, floods, cyclones, earthquakes, tsunamis and meltdowns. Those people have something to complain and b!*!# and get all riled up about.... YOU DONT
So all this bad things stuff is relative? If someone's worse off, then you are not allowed to complain?
Well, I'd say only Japan is allowed to complain, as they had an earthquake, a tsunami AND a nuclear meltdown. Everyone else please shut the hell up.
Except that this is crap, of course. If someone's bad, you complain. Doesn't matter one bit whether someone else is worse off, or even a lot worse off. There's always someone worse off.
Whether the 3e/4e/PF thing is something people should complain about or not, or whether they're overreacting, is quite beside the point. If you think they're overreacting, tell them that.
But don't use this fallacious statement that everything is fine if someone else has bigger problems. This isn't a contest.
So please just shut up about who has the bigger shlong
This can only be decided in one way: Everyone get a webcam and a ruler and settle this like men.
Movies... 2 craptacular movies...
The second film was okay. Not outstanding, but okay. It probably would have tanked if they had tried to sell it on the big screen, but at least the D&D elements were recognisable (which they weren't in the first film).
Not something that just blows you away, but not bad enough to make you stop watching.
Well, I'd say only Japan is allowed to complain, as they had an earthquake, a tsunami AND a nuclear meltdown. Everyone else please shut the hell up.
Yes, but is Pathfinder outselling D&D there?!
;-)
|
|
Out of curiosity, do you mind sharing why this is so? They hardly seem different "enough" to me to make the switch more than a speed bump. Don't get me wrong, there are lots of little changes (some of which I'm still finding), but the overall feel is nearly identical (to me).
I don't want to take this thread off on any more of a tangent than it already has, but suffice to say although the feel is the same the rules are different. Different enough to require double checking everything and requiring conversion of 3.5 material but not different enough to make me feel it was worth taking the time and effort to learn the changes.
PFS is the thing that is making it worth the effort now, but as my preferred setting is Eberron that was written for 3.5 and that is the system for which I have loads of sourcebooks that is the system I will be sticking with to play and run everything else (well I might run Freeport eventually with Pathfnder - I bought the PF Companion, but then I have the M&M, Savage Worlds, 3.5 and 4e companions too, so maybe not :)
I don't want to take this thread off on any more of a tangent than it already has, but suffice to say although the feel is the same the rules are different. Different enough to require double checking everything and requiring conversion of 3.5 material but not different enough to make me feel it was worth taking the time and effort to learn the changes.
PFS is the thing that is making it worth the effort now, but as my preferred setting is Eberron that was written for 3.5 and that is the system for which I have loads of sourcebooks that is the system I will be sticking with to play and run everything else (well I might run Freeport eventually with Pathfnder - I bought the PF Companion, but then I have the M&M, Savage Worlds, 3.5 and 4e companions too, so maybe not :)
Thanks. I am one of those guilty of assuming that most 3.5 players had happily switched to Pathfinder.
|
|
My FLGs has two Of course they can't find the 3.5 books as easily as before... they're all out of print. I'd find it hard to blame Paizo for that, though. As soon as WotC stopped supporting 3.5, its days were numbered as a profit-making concern. What publisher, 3pp included, is going to publish material for a game whose core rules can't be bought anew and whose used market will only erode as materials wear out?And because the OGL prevented certain types of information from being copied from the original rules, any and every new publication including those rules required there to be at least some changes, some new content, to make it a playable game. So any situation in which a publisher wanted to keep a version of 3.5 in print would have led to minor (at least) differences in the system.
I can understand if people don't care for Pathfinder as a replacement for 3.5 because of specific changes they don't favor. But I don't agree that Paizo has damaged the 3.5 community as a whole. I believe it has enhanced it with new ideas while still being largely compatible, realizing part of the great potential of the OGL.
Unfortuinatelty according to the LGS owner emotion more than logic seem to be on the menu. So it seems easier for them to complain about Paizo and PF then it is to just enjoy 3.5. He did what he had to do and pushed PF and Paizo as a replacement. Beyond keeping an eye out for used 3.5 nothing mush else he can do. The impression I got anyway was that they knew the risk about going with 3.5 and now realize they might have screwed.
|
|
The sad part is badmouthing any rpg is just not healthy for the hobby in general. You can hide behind free speech and your right as a customer or whatever rationalizations make you sleep better at night. In the end your not helping the hobby which is already in trouble. I can tell you one thing chances are the person badmouthing any rpg the loudest is the one who gets ignored the most by those in the hobby and as far as I'm concerned rightfully so.