In another thread a topic was brought up that stat boosting items may detract from the game. Along the lines of that topic I thought about removing stat boosters and adding, or reminding of, rules that replicate certain specific effects of stat boosting items and getting rid of stat boosters. Please review the below and share any ideas or comments you may have on the topic.
Strength: Strength improves to hit and damage of melee weapons as will as the damage for thrown weapons and Mighty Composite bows; Climb and Swim checks, and Str checks. Strength also improves your carrying capacity. You can already improve damage and to hit by enchanting a weapon, and through Amulets of Mighty Fists. So I present the Belt of Ant Haul:
Belt of Ant Haul
Aura: Weak transmutation; CL: 1
Slot: Waist; Price: 2,000 GP; Weight: 2 lb.s
A character Wearing this belt gains the benefit of Ant Haul, increasing their carrying capacity by 3 times.
Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, Ant Haul, Cost: 1,000 GP
Dexterity: Dexterity improves you ranged to hit, touch armor class, reflex saves, initiative, as well as the skills Acrobatics, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, Slight of Hand, and Stealth. Several Items already exist to boost your skills, and a cloak of resistance improves all saving throws, enchanted ranged and thrown weapons improves their to hit and damage. This leaves touch armor class and initiative. The following items are on these thoughts: The boots of Avoidance and the Specs of First Action:
Boots of Avoidance
Aura: Weak transmutation; CL: 7
Slot: Feet; Price: 2,500 GP (+1), 10,000 (+2), 22,500 (+3); Weight: 5 lb.s
A character Wearing these soft, leather boots add a +1 to +3 dodge bonus to armor class.
Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, Cat's Grace, Caster level equal to 3 times the bonus provided; Cost: 1250 GP (+1), 5,000 (+2), 11,250 (+3)
Specs of First Action
Aura: Moderate transmutation; CL: 9
Slot: Eyes; Price: 1,000 GP; Weight: 1 lb.s
These simple, silver rimmed glasses grant a +3 competence bonus to Initiative.
Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, Detect Thoughts; Cost: 500 GP
Intelligence: Intelligence is the primary spell casting attribute for alchemist, witches, and wizards. It also determines how many skill points you have, languages known at first level, and applies to the following skills: Appraise, Craft, Knowledge (all), Linguistics, and Spellcraft. The pearls of power already provide a witch or wizard with more spells per day (sort of). So I provide you with The Spell Power Circlet and the Demolitionist's Gloves:
Spell Power Circlet
Aura: Moderate transmutation; CL: 7
Slot: Head; Price: 2000 GP (+1), 8000 GP (+2), 18,000 GP (+3); Weight: 2 lb.s
The Mithral circlet set with multi-faceted Amethysts Provides the wearer with a continuous +1 to +3 competence bonus to the save DC's of their spells. Each circlet is keyed to one spell casting attribute, Int, Wis, or Cha; when created
Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, Fox's cunning, Owl's Wisdom, or Eagle's Splendor, caster level must be 3 times the bonus provided; Cost: 1,000 GP (+1), 4,000 GP (+2), 9,000 GP (+3)
Demolitionist's Gloves
Aura: Moderate transmutation; CL: 7
Slot: Hands; Price: 2000 GP (+1), 8000 GP (+2), 18,000 GP (+3); Weight: 4 lb.s
These rough and some what charred leather gloves provide a wearer with the Bomb class feature a continuous +1 to +3 competence bonus to Attack and damage rolls with their bombs and alchemy.
Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, True Strike, caster level must be 3 times the bonus provided; Cost: 1,000 GP (+1), 4,000 GP (+2), 9,000 GP (+3)
Wisdom: Wisdom provides a bonus to will saves, and is the primary spell casting attribute for the Clerics, Druids, Rangers, and Inquisitors. It also applies to the following skills: Heal, Perception, Profession, Sense Motive, and Survival. Due to the Spell Power Circlet (above) and the cloak of resistance, I see no further need for magic items at this time.
Charisma: Charisma is the primary spell casting stat for Sorcerers, Bards, Paladins, Summoners, and Oracles. It also applies to several paladin and sorcerer class features and to channel energy. Finally, charisma applies to the skills Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device. Due to the Spell Power Circlet (above), we will move on to the Blood Amulet and the Gloves of Positive/Negative Energy.
Blood Amulet
Aura: Moderate Conjuration; CL: 9
Slot: Neck; Price: 2,000 GP (+1), 8,000 GP (+2), 18,000 GP (+3); Weight: 1 lb.s
This amulet set with a blood red ruby enhances a sorcerer's bloodline powers. All bloodline powers related to charisma are increased by +1 to +3.
Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, Summon Monster I, caster level must be 3 times the bonus provided; Cost: 1,000 GP (+1), 4,000 GP (+2), 9,000 GP (+3)
Gloves of Positive/Negative Energy
Aura: Moderate Conjuration; CL: 9
Slot: Neck; Price: 2,000 GP (+1), 8,000 GP (+2), 18,000 GP (+3); Weight: 1 lb.s
You gain +1 to +3 uses of your lay on hands and channel energy class features, as well as increasing any relevant saves for the lay on hands and channel energy class features. The gloves are aligned to Positive or negative Energy when created and cannot be changed.
Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, Cure moderate wounds (Positive) or Inflict Light Wounds (negative), caster level must be 3 times the bonus provided; Cost: 1,000 GP (+1), 4,000 GP (+2), 9,000 GP (+3)
Those are my ideas, feedback would be appreciated.
Put me down for
1 = Belt of Ant Haul
1 = Boots of Avoidance (+2)
1 = Specs of First Action
for 13,000 gold.
Do you do free shipping for order over 10,000 ??
Too cheap?
Oh sorry, not doing magic reconstruction/deconstruction tonight, kind of feel bad right now.
Was just placing an order, because i though all those items were cool, and would love the have them for a Druid or Ranger :)
Note: The Ant Haul belt is not a fixed stat, but based off a spell. As such it would have a Duration per day or number of charges per day that you could use it.
Some of the other items would have the same problem if based off spells.. but like i said, not looking that closely at them tonight
....
Cool ideas tho
Use activate or continuous defines an multiplier for "effects based off of a spell with duration" I stand by that decision, may consider a different price, though.
My intention was that the amulet of mighty fists only apply to unarmed strike and natural attacks. Spell casters can boost others as well, if they just boost themselves, the group has bigger problems than those that can or cannot be caused by magic items.
Thank you for the feed back, that is what this is all about.
Do stat boosting spells still exist? I see you mention them in the prereqs, but is your intent that PCs can cast them? Because once you get to higher level, PCs will have many cheap wands of Animal's Aspect and just use them before every battle. Thus slightly increasing the bookkeeping, but for an overal same amount of power (except for ambushes).
However, it's not the same amount of power: because all of the castings of Animal's Aspect stacks with these items you've made, making the PCs have even higher saves, initiative, etc, than under core. Is that intentional?
Also: I don't see an item for giving a caster additional spell slots per day. Is that intentional?
But I agree with the spirit of your idea. I'm always looking to make my game more low-magic. Keep it up.
Use activate or continuous defines an multiplier for "effects based off of a spell with duration" I stand by that decision, may consider a different price, though.
Search Fu Fireball Bow. (was talked out of it)
Or check the wondrous item section. You will see everything (almost) is based off a duration you can use the item per day. Or Charges per day. When it delicates a spell effect.
The only stuff that does not follow that rule is (Bonus), or weapon or armor that use (bonus) as there listing price, for those effects.
..........
So the Ant Haul belt would be
1) Charges per day = Divide by (5 divided by charges per day).
..........
So the belt if done at caster level 1 should only last 2 hours per charge or 2 hours per day. On the other hand, the price would be lowered to 600 gp/300 creation cost if it only used 1 charge.
If you want the belt to last 24 hours, you would need to up the caster level to 12 for 1 charge per day.
(1 x 12 x 2000) = 24,000,
Charge per day = 24,000 divided by 5 (aka 1 charge per day) = 4,800
24 hour Belt of Ant Haul = 4,800 retail cost or 2,400 creation cost.
(note = note duration per hours is not listed. 10 minute/level is 1.5, and 24 hour is 1/2 cost. Assuming hour/level is base line cost with no modifier. Some GM may require the 1.5 since no offical listing is given for hours).
Where is Animal's Aspect? Most stat boosting spells have a short duration, They would have to cast them almost every combat.
That is intentional, you only gain a couple of bonus spell slots, most spell casters won't miss them ;) Furthermore, that could bring spell casters down a notch.
I always believed pricing wondrous items was more of a gut-check than a formula myself. The Belt of Ant Haul isn't that useful, and takes up the precious belt slot. Therefore, I'm quite fine with the current price.
However, the Spec of Initiative? WAY underpriced in my book. Getting (almost) a feat for only 500gp? And in a body slot with almost no competition. Too much of a must-have for casters and rogues. Need to break it into multiple potencies, and jack the price on all by a ton.
Everything else feels pretty underpriced too. (Except the Ant Haul.) I'd especially jack up the Lay On Hands Gloves. Getting a feat shouldn't be that cheap.
*stuff that made sense*
So it is reasonable for a continuous belt of ant haul to be worth 4,800 GP? That is why I started this thread, for feed back.
Also, I wouldn't want a bow of continuous fireball, it would be dangerous holding it :)
To Erik Freund: Thank you for the feed back, I was using the formula as a starting point and feedback to refine.
Where is Animal's Aspect? Most stat boosting spells have a short duration, They would have to cast them almost every combat.
Doesn't matter. In my current game, for example, we're level 12, and we have about 3 wands of Bear's Endurance, and we just flippantly apply a few charges around the party before we open a door. Getting more? Superduper cheap at our level. It will only get worse moving forward.
When I say "Animal's Aspect" I'm using that as shorthands for the group of 6 stat boosting spells.
To Erik Freund: Thank you for the feed back, I was using the formula as a starting point and feedback to refine.
The formula is based, in part, on the traditional stat boosting items existing. Removing them should move up the prices of these items. It's kindof like the law of supply and demand. ;-)
Sure, i would pay 4,800 gp for a belt.
After all, i just Permanently TRIPLED by encumbrance carrying ability, as listed on table 7-4 Carring Capacity on page 171 of PF phb.
So now my Druid with 12 strength went from
1-43 lb light load
42-86 lb med load
87-115 heavy load
To now
1-129 lb light load
130-258 lb med load
259-345 il heavy load.
With load effecting my movement rate, Swim skill checks, and other stuff i can not remember right off the top of my head, but i know if i look, which i am to lazy tonight to look.
PS = The first dragons horde the party finds, I be leave the belt would pay for itself, just in the extra gold coins it would let me carry back in bags :D :D :D :D :D
With load effecting my movement rate, Swim skill checks, and other stuff i can not remember right off the top of my head, but i know if i look, which i am to lazy tonight to look.
PS = The first dragons horde the party finds, I be leave the belt would pay for itself, just in the extra gold coins it would let me carry back in bags :D :D :D :D :D
You running into the problem of needing extra carrying capacity? We have horses, and by the time things start killing the horses, we have handy haversacks and other extra-dimensional spaces. I wouldn't pay more than 4800gp for this item, i probably wouldn't even pay that. I don't need it. (oh, and the thing that always kills my encumbrance is armor, not weight.)
as to getting rid of the ability items, i suggest just limiting them to +2 items, they aren't gone, and the spells are still useful. it's what i'm doing in my next campaign.
The initiative enhancing item is only just above a trait (half a feat), Reactionary gives +2 to initiative. a feat item should cost around 2500 or so; +5 to stealth (cloak of elven kind) is about the same as skill focus, in fact better until level 10. so 1000 gp isn't bad, i'd probably bring it up to 1750-2000gp though having it vary would make it very much cooler 1000 gp for a +1, 1750 gp for a +2, 2500 for a +3, to initiative. and yes as a rogue i would jump at this item at that cost. (just like.... well lots of other items)
What about a skill item to replace the intelligence booster, something that givse 1 point per level in a pre-set skill. (i find these very useful, i picked up an intelligence enhancer with my sorcerer just for the bonus skill points, and it'd be another item i'd jump at as a rogue.)
the bloodline power enhancer is weird, and you would need one that effected all the other mental stats, for all the other mental classes. (yes that was supposed to be a joke, it's unsurprising if you didn't laugh)
For the cost of 'feat in a can', compare to the following items:
Ring of Evasion This duplicates a low level Rogue ability for 25,000. Arguably overpriced. It's 5,000 less than the much more useful Ring of Invisibility.
Greater Metamagic Rods I know a lot of people who play casters and make getting one of these their highest priority.
To Eric the Pipe: I used skills for the cost of Initiative. And the bag of holding thing is kinda my thought on the Ant Haul, but the belt would let you carry unconscious allies, etc.
I thought about the skill item, I will post something later.
To AdAsra: Ring of evasion is better than a feat, you can't get it outside of 2 class levels or the aforementioned ring.
My reason Behind the pricing:
Belt of Ant Haul: mentioned above
Boots of Avoidance: cost of a non natural, non armor bonus to AC, and it does not apply to flat footed AC.
Specs of First Action: uses skill formula, considering a little more, but how much better is initiative compared to a skill?
The other items were my best guess, and I expected for at least some to be changed.
Again keep the feedback coming.
Non casters are missing out on, at most, 4 points of damage and 3 points of to-hit, and that is at medium-high levels. I am open to suggestions if you feel that strongly about it.
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Non casters are missing out on, at most, 4 points of damage and 3 points of to-hit, and that is at medium-high levels. I am open to suggestions if you feel that strongly about it.
I'd personally allow items that boosted non-casters attacks and damage, but not allow DC boosters, since no stat items hurts non casters a lot more.
I too find these items boring. Give Players an average wealth char and allow them to purchase Items as they want and everyone always comes up with these belts and headbands because they give the best bang for the buck - by far!
However removing them is a two sided sword - at least in the higher levels.
At Level 10 a Fighter is not so far behind a Level 15 Fighter in damage output. The only thing that differenciates them is the ability of the 15th Fighter to purchase an extremely expensive +6 to eveything belt.
Same with casters. At Level 15+ almost every monster will easily pass their saves against a caster with a main stat of "only" 20.
So unless you plan to stop at around Level 10 I would devise a backup plan (like giving out bonuses to attributes because of training).
My back up plan was the items described, maybe a few more. The only stat gains you get is level, class, and spells.
Honeslty you can ban them if you like you just need to appreacite that CR is based on a certain level of gold per level and that the game is desinged that people are mostly likely going to have a +6 on their primary stat so spell DC are +3, attack rolls are +3 etc etc, +3 on specific saves extra x3 Hit dice HP
just keep it in mind when your desinging enoucnters but you could easily do it.
consider that you could run a 10 point buy and allow stat buffing items or 25 point buy and disallow them for a similair effect.
I feel good karma coming from this thread.
+1
No offense meant by this.
It seems everyone who posts threads like this want to "remove stat boosters" and "not penalize people because they don't have stat boosters". In the items you propose- why not just give them the stat boosters?! You are removing the raw numbers but then giving them back some- if not all- of what they lost in the first place. Often giving back something they could care less about and ditching what they actually want the increased numbers for.
For example- a buffing wizard could care less about +3 to DC's- what he wants is *more spells*.
If you want to have lower magic- or just to not have stat boosters exist- then raise monster CR's (or seriously start editing monster blocks to compensate) and go for it. But "here, this is almost what you had before- but I removed the things you wanted out of it in the first place" is.. ouch. As a player I'd be unimpressed. Especially if you kept the campaign mechanics for the monsters the exact same while nerfing the PC's.
Monster CR's make some assumptions about the abilities of PC's to be able to hit certain AC's, penetrate certain SR's, overcome certain DC's, and survive certain hits through HP absorbtion. If you remove stat boosters then you have to go back and double check all those things. Docking PC's +6 to their primary and secondary scores and attempting to shore it up with "well now you can carry more loot!" is.. not going to work.
Your players may be different of course.
-S
I might recommend for a game with no stat boosting items, and only for a game with no stat boosting items, giving the players an extra permanent stat point at every even level instead of every 4.
Sure, this gives em +5 extra permanent ability points by level 20. But with no stat boosters that evens out pretty quick. By level 20 in a normal campaign EVERYONE is going to have at the absolute least +12 from boosting items (+6 Constitution, +6 Primary attribute [STR for melee characters, relevant DC/bonus spell setter for casters, etc.]) on top of +5 from leveling. Or at least, they will if they care about building a strong character at all.
I think this change would let players either improve their strengths or fill in weaknesses in much the same way that stat boosters do, without resulting in everyone running around with +6 to all stats by level 18 or 19. Its also a little less work than creating a bunch of new items to represent the effects that having your stats increase do :P (Not that having some of those around isn't cool! It just makes them less necessary/more flavorful.)
It seems everyone who posts threads like this want to "remove stat boosters" and "not penalize people because they don't have stat boosters". In the items you propose- why not just give them the stat boosters?! You are removing the raw numbers but then giving them back some- if not all- of what they lost in the first place. Often giving back something they could care less about and ditching what they actually want the increased numbers for.
Because stat boosters can cause a lot of unnecessary problems, (like the thread that spawned this(Headband of Vast Intellect skills). I'm Trying to pin down the bonuses without those problems.
Also, this thread is more of a "What if...", thoughts on the topic that some people might want to use. I'm not in a campaign right now(wish I was though).
To repeat a point that I'll belabor because I feel strongly enough about it: this does not get rid of stat boosting!
So long as you allow the spells, then PCs will cast them. Maybe not at low level. But once you get to around level 8, the party will happily sink all their level 2 spells into stat buffs if they can't get them any other way. (+10% chance of dodging/hitting/enchanting the enemy is just too valuable) Once you get to level 12, they'll have so much money, they'll just be gobbling up wands of stat boost like they were french fries.
Each casting is long enough to last a battle. That's good enough.
Not to be condescending, but have you played much high level? As in, a sustained campaign (not oneshot or module), above level 10? Things play out very differently up there. I ask because it doesn't go down like one would expect from playing the lower levels.
You're not eliminating the problem, only relocating it, and vastly increasing the bookkeeping in the process.
Actually, I never have really played high level. Also, My problem wasn't with stat boosting, only stat boosting items (as mentioned earlier).
You could double the frequency of stat increases for characters from 1/4 levels to 1/2 levels with the limitation that you can't raise the same stat twice in a row.
Allowing character to qualify for the feats that the stat boosters were helping for without greatly increasing actual power levels much.
My problem wasn't with stat boosting, only stat boosting items (as mentioned earlier).
I don't see where you've articulated that point in this thread, so maybe I'm failing to understand the entire point of this excercize.
So where's your line? If you're cool with stat boosting spells, and stat boosting wands, then how about "3x/day stat boosting wondrous items"? Why are you only banning "continuous-use stat boosting wondrous items"?
So if the PC's power situation is unchanged through levels 8 through 14 (above 14 they change because it's not easy to replicate the +6 via spells), then why is it preferrable to add bookkeeping to the process? Wand accounting, frankly, is tedious and boring. Some GMs might start handwaving it away after you get past a certain level, but that's not exactly rules-kosher.
In another thread a topic was brought up that stat boosting items may detract from the game. Along the lines of that topic I thought about removing stat boosters and adding, or reminding of, rules that replicate certain specific effects of stat boosting items and getting rid of stat boosters. Please review the below and share any ideas or comments you may have on the topic.
I guess the italicized was misleading, sorry. Times per day stat boosting isn't a bad idea, I guess.
In another thread a topic was brought up that stat boosting items may detract from the game.
-48 pt. font- "BULLSH#T" -/48 pt. font-
Along the lines of that topic I thought about removing stat boosters and adding, or reminding of, rules that replicate certain specific effects of stat boosting items and getting rid of stat boosters.
Great, a game that even further limits character development and puts a cap on fun.
Please review the below and share any ideas or comments you may have on the topic.
These would be great IN ADDITION to the existing array of magic items but are no substitute, especially since they are greatly overpriced when compared to similar and better items. You have some very good ideas here, though.
To Mr.Damage: If you do not have anything constructive or useful to say please stay out of my thread. I do not appreciate your your insults.
Heh if you really want to find out how powerful your class is just put it inside an antimagic field
that sorts the men from the boys ;)
Specs of First Action
Aura: Moderate transmutation; CL: 9
Slot: Eyes; Price: 1,000 GP; Weight: 1 lb.s
These simple, silver rimmed glasses grant a +3 competence bonus to Initiative.
Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, Detect Thoughts; Cost: 500 GP
..........
While i understand you used (skill bonus (competence) bonus squared x 100 gp. In the creation of the specs.
My question is which skill does a Initiative bonus is added to?
I do not think Initiative should be considered a skill bonus, due to no skill gives a bonus to Initiative.
At the very least i think the price is way to low.
Would recommended (Bonus squared x 1000 gp) as a better price guide.
+1 to Initiative = 1,000 gp retail
+2 to Initiative = 4,000 gp retail
+3 to Initiative = 9,000 gp retail
Initiative isn't a skill bonus, I just put it on par. High initiative really only benefits the first round of combat. Some skills are much more useful. Maybe Bonus squared X 500?
+1=500 GP
+2=2,000 GP
+3=4,500 GP
My group keeps stat booting items to an absolute minimum (if you have a single +2 to one stat item at level 12 you are ahead of the curve) but we use a higher stat base, which partially makes up for it.
our cmpagain is running on 25 point buy with no restrictions on stat boosting items. The Gm is of course running encounters at +1CR or more to keep things challenging.
All these numbers are arbitrary so long as encounter are challenging and fun to the group who cares if you fighter has an STR of 22 or 32 at the end so long as the monsters he's hitting and balanced accordingly
My current DM runs a policy that matches 4e, +1 to two different stats every 4 levels, and +1 to all stats at 10th and 20th.
I mention this as another possible option.
Might be conceivable with 25+ point buy. Otherwise; Enjoy forcing your players to min-max as hard as possible to get viable characters.
Initiative isn't a skill bonus, I just put it on par. High initiative really only benefits the first round of combat.
Right, but that first round is of critical importance. As you get higher level, combats last fewer and fewer rounds. Once you hit level 14 or so, about 50% of combats only take 1 round to complete. Initiative is the power-stat of high-level play.
Even when you're lower level, for some situations, initiative is the clincher. Especailly for rogues and certain spellcasters.
Also: consider that "spectacles" is a basically unused slot, so every hero in your game world will be wearing 500gp speed glasses.
Initiative isn't a skill bonus, I just put it on par. High initiative really only benefits the first round of combat.Right, but that first round is of critical importance. As you get higher level, combats last fewer and fewer rounds. Once you hit level 14 or so, about 50% of combats only take 1 round to complete. Initiative is the power-stat of high-level play.
Even when you're lower level, for some situations, initiative is the clincher. Especailly for rogues and certain spellcasters.
Also: consider that "spectacles" is a basically unused slot, so every hero in your game world will be wearing 500gp speed glasses.
Good morning, Erik beat me to the post :)
Ya Initiative bonus are very nice for caster.
Right now everyone can get up to +6 initiative by feat and trat (Druid can get up to +8, with an extra feat).
....
Also, 2nd round, you keep your initative order, unless something changes it.... so still very nice to have a +6 or +8 bonus on, to act first during the round your working on.
Right now everyone can get up to +6 initiative by feat and trat (Druid can get up to +8, with an extra feat).
Nitpick: Rangers can go much higher. Favored Terrain adds to Initiative, and unlike Favored Enemy, it's very easy for a Ranger to pick the "right" Favored Terrain so that it will be in use the majority of the time.